Hello. Talk to me about Simpson DuraPlus triple wall pipe Vs Metalbestos SSII double wall pipe. I've had a "small" house fire that is pointing to where the two double wall flue pipes ran through the attic without any insulation shields (Note both stoves and piping systems was "professionally" installed in a new house). I couldn't believe that the pipes could get this hot and that the treated insulation could catch fire but that is just what happened. So while the damage is minimal (sort of if you call replacing trusses minimal) I'm looking for others out there who swear by the triple wall - if I'm ever going to have my wife go to bed with the stoves running again, I need all the ammo I can get - belts and suspenders time! Each manufacturer and pipe model is listed on my wood stove manuals.
Two woodburners and no Attic Insulation Shield = housefire
- Thread starter blanco
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TMonter
Minister of Fire
I use insulated triple wall, but either is fine if you use the recommended clearance box. You need the dead air space.
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
If you have the 2" required minimal clearance and the proper support box & insulation shield, you should not have a problem.
Even if it runs away on you, you shouldn't see the pipe in the attic get hot enough to cause combustion...I would guess whoever installed it didn't follow clearance regulations. Is the pipe right up against insulation and/or trusses? If regs are followed everything in the attic should be safe from any heat from the pipe short of what would be produced by a raging chimney fire.
Adios Pantalones
Minister of Fire
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Ah, your cellulose caught on fire? Then the trusses. One more point to the blown in fiberglass instead of cellulose eh?
You need the clearance created by the insulation shield. Since your installer skipped it and then piled up super dry mounds of finely shredded newspaper around your chimney you got a fire. Either product will require an insulation shield. Either will work fine. Just install it properly.
You need the clearance created by the insulation shield. Since your installer skipped it and then piled up super dry mounds of finely shredded newspaper around your chimney you got a fire. Either product will require an insulation shield. Either will work fine. Just install it properly.
Wrigley
New Member
Sorry hearing about your fire. It sure sounds like the 'professional' installer fouled up big time with your chimneys ignoring the manufacturer's installation instructions and fire code regulations. In this instance 'professional' equalled paid, not competent. Properly installed (actually follow the damn directions, duh) there should be no issue with double or triple wall whatsoever. (Shamelessly ripping off the Geico ad ....) It's so easy that even a caveman like me could do it myself reading along step by step with the Duravent instructions.
Most installers that do stove and chimney installs as their speciality are very good -- they typically know their stuff inside out and are truly pros. It's too bad that isn't what you experienced despite paying to have the chimneys done.
Most installers that do stove and chimney installs as their speciality are very good -- they typically know their stuff inside out and are truly pros. It's too bad that isn't what you experienced despite paying to have the chimneys done.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Not to worry, my professional installer ran the class A chimney well within the 2" required clearance alongside my roof's rafter. I measured, called him back, and he fixed it saying that it would have been fine and was pretty ticked that I called him back for it.
There is far too much of this half-a$$ type construction in the stove installation trade for my taste. You need to check their work.
There is far too much of this half-a$$ type construction in the stove installation trade for my taste. You need to check their work.
oconnor
Minister of Fire
Sorry to hear about the fire.
Was it the chimney installer or the insulator who screwed up? Who did the work last? Did a building inspector check the install? Permit? Don't mean to bombard you, but all these contribute to the cause factors of a failed install.
I noticed yesterday that Selkirk (who makes Metalbestos) is now selling an insulation wrap to install around the flue pipe to be used between the flue and the insulation shields.
Here is the link: http://www.selkirkcorp.com/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=6716
The issue really isn't double wall VS Triple wall, it's that when we don't follow instructions, then we don't get the results we want. And it sucks when a "certified installer" is the one to blame.
Was it the chimney installer or the insulator who screwed up? Who did the work last? Did a building inspector check the install? Permit? Don't mean to bombard you, but all these contribute to the cause factors of a failed install.
I noticed yesterday that Selkirk (who makes Metalbestos) is now selling an insulation wrap to install around the flue pipe to be used between the flue and the insulation shields.
Here is the link: http://www.selkirkcorp.com/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=6716
The issue really isn't double wall VS Triple wall, it's that when we don't follow instructions, then we don't get the results we want. And it sucks when a "certified installer" is the one to blame.
Check your install materials list.
There should've been an an attic insulation shield plus a cap for each - or in the case of Excel Pipe, an extra storm collar, for each system...
That will tell you if the Class A systems were correctly installed.
You could also check to see what the depth of the insulation was...
If it was higher than the attic insulation shield & the cap, then it may have come
into contact with the Class A chimney even though the Class A was installed correctly...
This would throw the blame at the insulation installers...
There should've been an an attic insulation shield plus a cap for each - or in the case of Excel Pipe, an extra storm collar, for each system...
That will tell you if the Class A systems were correctly installed.
You could also check to see what the depth of the insulation was...
If it was higher than the attic insulation shield & the cap, then it may have come
into contact with the Class A chimney even though the Class A was installed correctly...
This would throw the blame at the insulation installers...
Some added background:
New house built 5 years ago - the woodburners and smoke pipes were installed during home building with the proper permits.
The "professional" was contracted to install the stoves and flashed the pipes at the roof.
The General Contractors scope was to build the chase and insulate the attic. So there is the finger pointing - the installer didn't have any insulation to work around and neglected to put the attic insulation shield on the pipes - the GC had his sub contractor blow insulation all around the pipes. The stoves were inspected by the town BUT I'm pretty sure they didn't go into the attic. I didn't find out about the problem till I used the stoves this season to heat the house solely with wood and got everything hot enough. So the moral to the story which was underlined above by others is, we need to be as informed as possible, trust no one and check everything. The stoves were both dampened down, no creosote, both burning happy...not running away. They show demonstrations where that treated cellulose insulation is hit with a torch when it's in a ball - well it's not installed in a ball in your attic and who knows how evenly the acid treatment is...the simple step of putting a shield on the pipes created a disaster - we are lucky we woke up @ 2:30, smelled the fire and the trusty garden hose put out the visible flames till the fire department arrived. Thanks to all who voted - double, triple - not a huge difference Vs proper installation.
New house built 5 years ago - the woodburners and smoke pipes were installed during home building with the proper permits.
The "professional" was contracted to install the stoves and flashed the pipes at the roof.
The General Contractors scope was to build the chase and insulate the attic. So there is the finger pointing - the installer didn't have any insulation to work around and neglected to put the attic insulation shield on the pipes - the GC had his sub contractor blow insulation all around the pipes. The stoves were inspected by the town BUT I'm pretty sure they didn't go into the attic. I didn't find out about the problem till I used the stoves this season to heat the house solely with wood and got everything hot enough. So the moral to the story which was underlined above by others is, we need to be as informed as possible, trust no one and check everything. The stoves were both dampened down, no creosote, both burning happy...not running away. They show demonstrations where that treated cellulose insulation is hit with a torch when it's in a ball - well it's not installed in a ball in your attic and who knows how evenly the acid treatment is...the simple step of putting a shield on the pipes created a disaster - we are lucky we woke up @ 2:30, smelled the fire and the trusty garden hose put out the visible flames till the fire department arrived. Thanks to all who voted - double, triple - not a huge difference Vs proper installation.
Hogwildz
Minister of Fire
blanco said:
Check your contract with the GC. Most new homes round here come with a 10 year warranty.
The insulation shield should have been put in regardless. Even though there was no insulation at time of installation, they should have known better that eventually insulation would have been added. Unless they were told the GC was to add a chase around them, then the GC is to blame for not installing the chase which does the same as the insulation shield. Keeps the insulation off the pipe. Thirdly, the insulators should know better also, and are the last installer up there and should have know better to blown that in against the pipes without demanding a chase or insulation shield be installed prior to insulating. Sounds to me like everyone passed the buck, until the insulators had no one else to pass it to, and now it falls on you. I'd take all 3 to court and let all, 2 or 1 of them pay for it & the repairs. You could have died from their laziness and ignorance.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
I blame the insulators the most since they are the ones that blew their product against a chimney. They actually broke a rule. Everyone else just made it possible.
My building inspector approved of my installation. He never even poked his head into the attic to check for the very situation that caused your fire. I had a ladder ready for him and everything. The chimney runs within 10' of the attic hatch so he could have stayed on the ladder.
But, the inspection was approved so it was legal. Insurance should cover damages from legal installations and they may choose to go after the contractors.
My building inspector approved of my installation. He never even poked his head into the attic to check for the very situation that caused your fire. I had a ladder ready for him and everything. The chimney runs within 10' of the attic hatch so he could have stayed on the ladder.
But, the inspection was approved so it was legal. Insurance should cover damages from legal installations and they may choose to go after the contractors.
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