Any suggestions? Installation challenge

Andrew04039 said:

WoodnotOil,
I would love to start here on the plans. Does anyone here have a schematic of how an EKO should be hooked up with an existing oil boiler with heat storage and a vertical dump zone (by code)?

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The problem you will see is that there is not just one way to do it. Take a look at the stickies to start with.

Difficult to make a “one size fits all” traditional/alternative interface.

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Isn't that what a hydraulic separator does? Simplifies the P/S concept by avoiding a loop with circ, allowing you to easily expand the system, and giving all zones the same water temp.

heaterman said:

pybyr said:

hate to sound conceited, but this is a technology, at least in this country, that is largely a territory explored and mastered by "amateurs"- in the true literal sense of the word from latin- amo, amas, amat.. ( my old latin teacher would probably bash me for botching the grammar ) - "love" (amateur being someone who does something for the love of the undertaking, not gain). Love over gold, to borrow Dire Straits' album name.

even the pros on here in the boiler room are people who are pursuing these efforts because they enjoy and/ or care about the stuff this implicates- energy, sustainability, invention

if you are handy, you can do this

it will take longer than you expect (ask me how I know!) unless you are a single person without kids who has no need for a day job

one of the biggest breakthroughs that I think someone could make is to come up with some "chevy small block" core of a system's controls, pumps and valves, all in a compact unit. that people could buy, connect the ancillary boiler, storage, and heat loads, connect a thermostat, AC power, and turn on the main "ON" compact is key, as that is how it can work in many places. that is part of why I find the Taco Twin Tees, and their flexibility and compactness, really interesting.

If I had the design and fab skills, I would love to make my "Uber Loop" with radially-arranged twin tees and a caleffi air sep on top and dirt sep on bottom into a miniaturized modular version. maybe one casting, with the pump housing created as part of a single investment cast and machined unit.

we should get Joe Brown- Brownian Heating, and NoFo together on that. Joe brings the mech engineering and pro bolting-up experience horsepower. Nofo brings the programming and interface. Convene a "Summit" at BadAsset Acres, which is roughly centrally located between the two, soon? Others are welcome, too

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The small block Chevy is a good analogy but the difference is that GM designed and manufactured their vehicles around that engine whereas in regards to boilers, there are as many existing system designs as there are installers. I've often thought about doing something like that and marketing it but when I think back on all the boiler installations I've done, no two are the same. Difficult to make a "one size fits all" traditional/alternative interface. That's the main issue........probably one that could be solved if a person could devote about a years worth of time to studying existing hydronic and forced air systems and engineering a package.

There are a couple companies that do supply ready made hydronic pumping and control packages but from what I see they are very pricey.

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my point with the small block Chevy was not what GM did with it

- look where they got themselves with what they did

it is what the rest of the world did with a really good core building block

people adopted it as a standard, and innovated to meet its basic specs, because it was such a good, solid, simple platform to do that

you can buy any conceivable aftermarket mind boggling innovation to bolt right up to a bone stock version of that core except maybe a camshaft driven eggbeater

if you build a good core platform, minds and markets will follow

pybyr said:

my point with the small block Chevy was not what GM did with it

- look where they got themselves with what they did

it is what the rest of the world did with a really good core building block

people adopted it as a standard, and innovated to meet its basic specs, because it was such a good, solid, simple platform to do that

you can buy any conceivable aftermarket mind boggling innovation to bolt right up to a bone stock version of that core except maybe a camshaft driven eggbeater

if you build a good core platform, minds and markets will follow

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Not to mention the number of cars which have had SBC's transplanted into them, regardless of what was originally there.

I think this is very do-able, and it's something that's been on the backburner here for a while. Mostly because of the control system needs (heck, I've been reading primers on industrial control logic when I have free time). I could probably finalize the mechanical design within a couple weeks, if I had a couple weeks to spare right now.

Joe

BrownianHeatingTech said:

pybyr said:

my point with the small block Chevy was not what GM did with it

- look where they got themselves with what they did

it is what the rest of the world did with a really good core building block

people adopted it as a standard, and innovated to meet its basic specs, because it was such a good, solid, simple platform to do that

you can buy any conceivable aftermarket mind boggling innovation to bolt right up to a bone stock version of that core except maybe a camshaft driven eggbeater

if you build a good core platform, minds and markets will follow

Click to expand...

Not to mention the number of cars which have had SBC's transplanted into them, regardless of what was originally there.

I think this is very do-able, and it's something that's been on the backburner here for a while. Mostly because of the control system needs (heck, I've been reading primers on industrial control logic when I have free time). I could probably finalize the mechanical design within a couple weeks, if I had a couple weeks to spare right now.

Joe

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I'll repeat my question from above in case you didn't catch:

Isn’t that what a hydraulic separator does? Simplifies the P/S concept by avoiding a loop with circ, allowing you to easily expand the system, and giving all zones the same water temp.

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What is the difference between what a hydraulic separator accomplishes and what you are proposing? Would it be a necessary and superior to a hydraulic separator.

WoodNotOil said:

I'll repeat my question from above in case you didn't catch:

Isn’t that what a hydraulic separator does? Simplifies the P/S concept by avoiding a loop with circ, allowing you to easily expand the system, and giving all zones the same water temp.

Click to expand...

What is the difference between what a hydraulic separator accomplishes and what you are proposing? Would it be a necessary and superior to a hydraulic separator.

Click to expand...

Missed that one (Trevor's "Russian motorcycle with sidecar gang" had me laughing).

There's nothing in this that can't be done with individual parts, if you want to build everything by hand. The idea here is to have a pre-assembled contraption that you just pipe to the boilers (wood and backup), storage system, and the zones. Return temperature protection, transfer between wood and backup boiler, charging and discharging of the zones, etc. is all pre-piped and pre-wired, inside the box.

The goal is to allow skilled do-it-yourselfers as well as contractors who are used to oil/gas (not wood) to be able to install these systems quickly and with minimal fuss. Wood heat is pretty specialized, and it's been becoming more and more obvious that one of the biggest things keeping it from gaining ground is the lack of skilled installers in many areas. This sort of system reduces that effect by making installation of the wood system nearly as simple as installation of an oil or gas system typically is.

For example, a skilled installation crew can replace a typical residential oil or gas boiler with about 30 man-hours of labor, complete. That includes the time to design the system (pump selection, boiler selection, etc.), the time to order parts, load them onto a truck, remove the existing boiler (completely - back to zone piping), install the new boiler and build a heating system (headers, pumps, valves, etc.), wire it up and fire it up. Some systems will take more, and some will take less, but that's pretty typical of the direct labor investment in a full boiler replacement.

How long do most folks spend installing a wood system? Even professional installers have a large investment of man-hours, and how long have many do-it-yourselfers spent on theirs? There are systems which have used well over a hundred man-hours of labor, and are still not running optimally. If 90% of residential wood-fired systems could be installed using a standardized control/pump panel, the price would come down, and so would the aggravation level, leading to wood heat becoming more common. Support would also be simpler, since certain symptoms result from certain problems, and we wouldn't have to figure out how the particular system was piped, before being able to sort out why it is doing something improperly...

Joe

gang- I am about to lose my job, probably quite literally, for telling a bureaucrat on a corrupt power trip, in writing, to go give himself "auto-erotic pleasure by penetration" yeah, those are the words that I chose, and said. my sOOpervis-ores really are PO'd at my willingness to take the Bullsh*t of controversy by the horns and not just fade into the shadows, where my sOOpervis-ores seem to prefer to dewll.

losing my job will really suck. In the extreme

but being unable to look myself in the eye when I look in the mirror would suck a lot worse

so I will become a hired gun for hire (as a licensed lawyer who wishes he'd been an engineer) ( and did you hear the one about the lawyer who had unintended side effects from Viagra -- He encountered no results after taking the prescription, except that he got taller )

I need to get taller

so, here is my suggested plan

a modular core, maybe it will be P/S, maybe a separator

Get Sturm/Ruger in NH/CT to cast it- they do a lot of contract investment casting

a Mac mini intel, running whatever, to run the thing,a and the interfaces to the boiler, storage, pumps, valves, web, GUI, etc.

USB controls on / to pumps and valves on the boiler and storage and heat loads

Burning Man East, dudes (and babes- especially babes) ! 07/04/09. 7 miles north of Montpeculiar VT. I have already invited the Russian Moto crew, along with some hippies and engineers and families with kids. It's gonna rock, as long as I don't lose my job and house first. To quote Geo Bush II, which I rarely do, "Make the Pie higher!"

By thee way, one of you Maine-iacs with the wives with countless siseters (intentional typos) from big catholic families

send a single childless female sibling of your SO my way,

especially if she likes the outdoors, is willing to help cut and stack wood, has a fun and smart mind, is a dynamo in bed, and, does not have unresolved issues with her father figure that she needs to work out by treating a man that she cohabits with like crap

heck, she need not come from Maine

brains and buxumness are each welcome points, as long as there is a relative abundance of one or the other. bonus for combo!

hec,k if I can meet a woman with a smart mind who does not treat men like crud, and meets most of the rest of the above, she can be skinny as a rail, and I will adore and cherish her, beyond her wildest imaginings. brains and kindness are harder to find than other aspects of anatomy

pybyr said:

By thee way, one of you Maine-iacs with the wives with countless siseters (intentional typos) from big catholic families

send a single childless female sibling of your SO my way,

especially if she likes the outdoors, is willing to help cut and stack wood, has a fun and smart mind, is a dynamo in bed, and, does not have unresolved issues with her father figure that she needs to work out by treating a man that she cohabits with like crap

heck, she need not come from Maine

brains and buxumness are each welcome points, as long as there is a relative abundance of one or the other. bonus for combo!

hec,k if I can meet a woman with a smart mind who does not treat men like crud, and meets most of the rest of the above, she can be skinny as a rail, and I will adore and cherish her, beyond her wildest imaginings. brains and kindness are harder to find than other aspects of anatomy

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Have you been drinking? Just in a rough patch in life? Both?

I feel for you man! :down:

But damn your funny! :lol:

He's funny, for a lawyer. Sorry , the siseters' are all married off in this clan.

I read this whole thread, and I can't even believe I did that. Man, someones gotta take the bull by the horns and just install this ... beast. Its a simple thing... heat the water... send it where it's gotta go, and make sure it gets back to the boiler in a reasonable amount of time. Need help ? I live in Greenwood, I can be there in less than an hour....

good going treehugger!!like your style

WoodNotOil said:

pybyr said:

By thee way, one of you Maine-iacs with the wives with countless siseters (intentional typos) from big catholic families

send a single childless female sibling of your SO my way,

especially if she likes the outdoors, is willing to help cut and stack wood, has a fun and smart mind, is a dynamo in bed, and, does not have unresolved issues with her father figure that she needs to work out by treating a man that she cohabits with like crap

heck, she need not come from Maine

brains and buxumness are each welcome points, as long as there is a relative abundance of one or the other. bonus for combo!

hec,k if I can meet a woman with a smart mind who does not treat men like crud, and meets most of the rest of the above, she can be skinny as a rail, and I will adore and cherish her, beyond her wildest imaginings. brains and kindness are harder to find than other aspects of anatomy

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Have you been drinking? Just in a rough patch in life? Both?

I feel for you man! :down:

But damn your funny! :lol:

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rough patch- yes, I may get fired for blowing the whistle on a deliberate attempt to divert federal funds for something other than the originally intended purpose

humor is the main thing, other than retaining my honor by not playing along with such shenanigans, keeping me going. I should also mention good friends, including some the good folks that a I have met here, even though I have not met any of you in person yet

I may suddenly have the free time I've lacked to complete my boiler install!

regarding "spirits," I refer you to Tom Waits and the Piano:

http://www.ripcat.free-online.co.uk/waitshtml/thepianohasbeendrinkingbclyrics.htm

Andrew04039,

Put in a second, redundant pressure relief valve. That should reduce the chance of such an explosion to near negligible levels. After that, except for perhaps the chimney, you have a conventional hot water installation - except again of course for the storage. Not a huge deal, and certainly nothing that any HVAC professional should be shy about, once they understand the concepts.

I don't think you are going to see much of a different in efficiency with DHW between pressurized and non. People do this various ways with either coils in the tank or by pumping the storage water through a coil hx in a DHW tank or a side arm or even a flat plate hx. I like coils in the tank because the tank water doesn't have to move and maintains stratification better and there is no heat loss as it is piped through the basement. So long as cold water enters the coil near the bottom stratification should be maintained.

pybyr said:

By thee way, one of you Maine-iacs with the wives with countless siseters (intentional typos) from big catholic families

send a single childless female sibling of your SO my way,

especially if she likes the outdoors, is willing to help cut and stack wood, has a fun and smart mind, is a dynamo in bed, and, does not have unresolved issues with her father figure that she needs to work out by treating a man that she cohabits with like crap

heck, she need not come from Maine

brains and buxumness are each welcome points, as long as there is a relative abundance of one or the other. bonus for combo!

hec,k if I can meet a woman with a smart mind who does not treat men like crud, and meets most of the rest of the above, she can be skinny as a rail, and I will adore and cherish her, beyond her wildest imaginings. brains and kindness are harder to find than other aspects of anatomy

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Would it be ok if I drop her off on my Russian motorcycle with sidecar.

" rough patch- yes, I may get fired for blowing the whistle on a deliberate attempt to divert federal funds for something other than the originally intended purpose "

Wait just one second you say you're a lawyer yet the above quote sounds like it comes from a decent law abiding citizen ! How can this be. We could use someone like you to oversee the billions going to the bank robbers industry. Now lets throw a big party to celebrate and lets invite thosa nice folks at AIG.

Pros & Cons: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30390/

Piping: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/26191/

Do a thorough read of everything you can get in a search for "pressurized storage" in the boiler room.

Andrew04039 said:

Your the man. I appreciate it.

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:red: ... nothing like a compliment to boost the old ego! No problem! Good luck!

WoodNotOil said:

I don't think you are going to see much of a different in efficiency with DHW between pressurized and non. People do this various ways with either coils in the tank or by pumping the storage water through a coil hx in a DHW tank or a side arm or even a flat plate hx. I like coils in the tank because the tank water doesn't have to move and maintains stratification better and there is no heat loss as it is piped through the basement. So long as cold water enters the coil near the bottom stratification should be maintained.

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The difference is the type of heat exchanger used.

In an atmospheric storage tank (we'll use STSS for example numbers), there is usually a 180-foot coil of 3/4" copper for DHW heating. That's about 35 square feet of heat exchange surface area, which can pick up a lot of energy even at a small temperature difference.

In an indirect water heater, as used with a pressurized tank, the heat exchanger surface area is generally in the 5 to 15 square feet range. So there is a significant difference in DHW performance.

To do that with a plate heat exchanger, you get into very large units. For example, to match 35 square feet in a typical 5x12" plate heat exchanger, you'd need around 100 plates. Of course, stainless doesn't transfer heat as effectively as copper, so you would actually need more plates than that. So you're talking a multi-thousand-dollar heat exchanger.

Of course, those big copper coils aren't exactly cheap, either, so when you delete that cost from the tally, you wouldn't pay much extra to go pressurized, even if you were trying to get the same DHW performance.

Joe