Please help, fear instilled by others on install job

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30052/P45/

folks, please review comments, a particular indivudual has managed to put fear in me regarding my installation,
which was approved by Building Permits Office.

I don't know what to do and am now somewhat worried to the point that I am going to have to go back
and have them review my file for this insert application.

pictures are on the previous pages which shows most of the process.

not sure why an insert required 18" legs and why someone would point out that 2X4 framing is not allowed as per code
but yet in my application for this installation is was all drawn out and approved by an Ontario Canada's Building Permits office.

including approval prior to install by the vendor of this insert.

unnecessary fear ???
I'm all freaked out about it now.

please let me know what you think.

many thanks in advance.

begreen · Jan 12, 2009

As long as the side and top clearances to combustibles have been honored as per the manual, it should be fine. The hearth is required to be non-combustible only and your hearth certainly fits this requirement. FWIW, I probably would have used metal studding for all of the inner framing on the fireplace face rather than burying hidden combustibles. It looks like the 10" to side facing may be met, but my concern is the hidden wood that appears to be about 8" above the top of the stove front. My concern is because no one knows what stove might be put in this space in the future. So while this one is purpose approved for the Osburn, what if you decide you prefer a different stove 5 years from now?

However, for this installation, you have done your documentation well and way above average. If you have the blessings of SBI and the building office, then you should be good to go.

dswineford · Jan 12, 2009

I just had a chimney fire. Never was I concerned for my families lives since the fire place (chimney) was built to withstand fires. I told this forum about it and most were supportive of me and what happened, and a few over-reacted (human nature of some).
Don't let others who know nothing of your particular situation affect your better judgement. You know best of the work you did. It looks great!
Enjoyed your pictures. Keep them comming.
You the man. Screw the rest.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

Thank you !

top of unit body to nearest combustible requirements is 14" for this unit.
we cleared that with one inch to spare.

because the surround was going to sit lower then the top beam the rockboard would not properly
sit tight against anything thus I added one strip of metal stud around to enable a couple screws
to hold onto it making it more sturdy. also approved by Permits Office.

PeteD · Jan 12, 2009

Well I was sorry to read the comments you received in the other thread. Flaming is not constructive and the tone of those comments was not necessary.

One question I have (DIY'er myself, so relatively uneducated, except for my unit's requirements) is about the clearance above your unit inside the fireplace. It looks like insulation and maybe wood framing above the insert, where I expected to see firebrick (chimney). I am referring to your block-off plate photo.

I have a "zero clearance" Lennon Brentwood (which is not insert), but even with the ZC, the area immediately above the fireplace footprint needs to be clear of combustibles for something like 68 inches above the base of the fireplace. The clearance to the mantel or other combustible on the front face is something like 9 inches (much less) above the top of the fireplace.

Edit: I should add that the Lennox allows the wall framing to be within this zone at the front of the unit, but wants open space behind that...

Is that really wood and insulation that I am seeing in the photo, and does your manual specify the clearance directly above the insert? I am not sure if it would because an insert goes into a fireplace, and is not freestanding? I may be confused by the photo, but thought I would ask.

Good luck,
Pete

oconnor · Jan 12, 2009

67ref - you probably won't like what I have to say, but give it a read. You have tried well so far to stay safe and code compliant, and my goal is to help.

First - WETT certification and city officials, while they do make insurance companies happy, make mistakes. My installer did not insulate my flue liner, and downsided to 5 inches. The downsizing causes smoke spillage and poor draft, and my chimney and fireplace have wood timbers in direct contact with the brick of the fireplace and chimney, so I need a "zero/zero" install on my liner - he had never heard of the issue I raised, and I needed to call the provincial WETT office to have the issue sorted out. They confirmed my fear, that I had a noncompliant install, and that most tech had no idea about the insulation needs of older flues to meet code. City officials will usually go by whatever the WETT guy says, so the blind lead the blind.

Second, I wouldn't have placed the 2x4s under the Durock. As was once stated in a thread about mantle clearances, surrounding a combustible with a non combustible doesn't remove it, it hides it. That said, it looks like you are meeting the requirements of the stove manual, as the wood is more than 14 inches above the stove body- just make sure that the next guy who owns your house knows there is wood under there. My Jotul would never meet the clearances with the wood under the Durock.

Unfortunately, the clearances mentioned in the manual are for exposed wood - wood that recieves heat at a higher rate, but also cools more readily as well. Things like mantels and trim wood are what they are thinking about. They were not meant for dealing with wood embedded in walls. The fireplace and chimney need airspace from combustibles to prevent too much heat transfer to the wood. Is it a problem - read further....

As well, from what I see, you will need spark protection on the floor in front of the hearth. Even with the raised hearth, your manual calls for a total of 16 inches from the blower fan (manual says 6 inches on the hearth with 10 inches of spark protection beyond). In your previous thread, you mentioned only needing 18 inches from the glass - you should have 16 inches from the front of the blower based on the manual. It doesn't discuss 18 inches from glass. 18 inches isn't mentioned in the manual at all.

Do you have a code approved fireplace?

In the end, the question that is in play is "do you have an approved fireplace once you add the wood to it "- that is the problem. As your manual mentions " The masonry fireplace must meet the minimum code requirements, or NFPA 211 or the equivalent for a safe installation." The refacing you did would not likely pass code for a fireplace, and there is where the technicalities arise. Fireplaces have specific details on where wood can be, and how close it can be. When you added wood to the facing, you left the realm of insert install, and entered the realm of fireplace code (ULC S628 I think, vice CAN 635 which covers stoves)

As for the questions raised elsewhere about your extension( needing 18 inch legs...) , the stove is supposed to sit on the hearth of an approved fireplace, not just a noncombustible surface. The specific K/R values of the floor underneath aren't covered in detail in your manual, but they are covered in the code for fireplaces. The manual does mention that it is to sit on the hearth (Notice that the images in the manual show it as a thick surface, different from the framed floor). The intent of your manual is to discuss values of floor covering, as they assume it is fully on the fireplace floor (as shown on the manuals). Yours is somewhat out from the floor, and I have no idea if it will/won't be hot under there, but I do know that it isn't fully on the fireplace floor as per the manual.

In the end, I don't know if you are safe - you have to make that call - my concern for you is that you may not have a code approved fireplace, and that is a requirement for installation before anything else.

Unless you have tiled the durock, I would strip it down and use metal studs, or tapcon the durock to the brick, or do what I did, and have a concrete skim coat applied directly to the brick. That may get you the space to put the stove all the way onto the fireplace floor. If you can do that, I see no issues.

So, you've read it through - have a chat with the WETT guy who gave you the advice. Ask him what he thinks about the issue of the wood affecting the compliance of the fireplace. As well, others will no doubt critique what I have written - and we are all here to help. See what they say, and do what you decide is best.

Good luck.

For the rest of the readers - does anyone know what the code requirements are for a fireplace floor? That I would like to know....

DAKSY · Jan 12, 2009

I'd say most of your install looks pretty good.
Where I might have a question is not the clearance off the top of the unit, but any heat transfer from the SS liner - THRU the steel studs - into that framed header above the steel.
Technically - per NFPA 211, you cannot have ANY combustibles - which protrude out from the face of the fireplace up to 1-1/2" - within 6" of the top of the fireplace opening, or the fireplace violates the code.
If it protrudes MORE then 1-1/2" out from the facing, it must have a 12" clearance
PLUS, your liner has a clearance to combustibles of 18" (single-wall connector), & I would like to see what your actual measurement is from the liner to that framing member...
Not that I wanna throw any monkey-wrenches into your workings, because you've done an excellent job with the look.
I just don't think that framed header is a good idea...
If that thing ignites, it'll be burning good before you even figger out where the smoke is comin from...
Looking for any other input into my rationale, here, whether yea or nay...
Feel free to jump on this one!

carp · Jan 12, 2009

From what I recall in the application data sheet for Durock, you did same as I did but I am up on legs. The tile underneath, about 8inches from bottom of my stove, is barely warm with a 700 degree stove top temperature. Here is the document from the manufacturer. See if it gives you warm and fuzzies. You could uses a thermocouple on top of the tile under the insert to see what kind of temperature you are getting at the surface of the tile. Then take into account the heat transfer through the tile, and the heat transfer through the Durock to see if you risk approaching the temps necessary to rick the wood framing. Looks like you will also be moving air along that tile which is a plus.

http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Co...d_Submittal_Sheets/CB198_Durock_Cement_Bd.pdf

The Durock, installed properly reduces needed clearances. Take a looksy.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

PeteD said:
Well I was sorry to read the comments you received in the other thread. Flaming is not constructive and the tone of those comments was not necessary.

One question I have (DIY'er myself, so relatively uneducated, except for my unit's requirements) is about the clearance above your unit inside the fireplace. It looks like insulation and maybe wood framing above the insert, where I expected to see firebrick (chimney). I am referring to your block-off plate photo.

I have a "zero clearance" Lennon Brentwood (which is not insert), but even with the ZC, the area immediately above the fireplace footprint needs to be clear of combustibles for something like 68 inches above the base of the fireplace. The clearance to the mantel or other combustible on the front face is something like 9 inches (much less) above the top of the fireplace.

Edit: I should add that the Lennox allows the wall framing to be within this zone at the front of the unit, but wants open space behind that...

Is that really wood and insulation that I am seeing in the photo, and does your manual specify the clearance directly above the insert? I am not sure if it would because an insert goes into a fireplace, and is not freestanding? I may be confused by the photo, but thought I would ask.

Good luck,
Pete

RE: about the clearance above your unit inside the fireplace. It looks like insulation and maybe wood framing above the insert, where I expected to see firebrick (chimney). I am referring to your block-off plate photo.

the wall above the fireplace is the exterior of the home, it has insulation in it and there is the required wood framing which is the wall of the home.
the masonry fireplace and chimney goes towards the outside of the home. there is a firebrick chimney going from inside to the outside of the home.
the chimney is full brick and is on the exterior of the home.

the insulation you are seeing on the block-off plate picture is fireproof and is only the soft block-off the installation company provided.
I added the metal block-off plate myself. this is all done inside the firebrick masonry cavity of the chimney.

This is not a free standing unit, this is an Insert and it's placed inside the old existing masonry chimney.
the white bricks you are seeing in the first photo is not the actual masonry chimney itself.
it was cosmetics and was replaced with drywall. there was always a wooden structure in behind,
how else would the home hold itself up in that area.

when you go outside in the back of my house you can see an exterior masonry chimney,
it's not inside the walls and it's not just insulation and wood framing that holds my 6" linner

the 6" linner is inside the existing masonry chimney from bottom to top.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

oconnor said:
67ref - you probably won't like what I have to say, but give it a read. You have tried well so far to stay safe and code compliant, and my goal is to help.

First - WETT certification and city officials, while they do make insurance companies happy, make mistakes. My installer did not insulate my flue liner, and downsided to 5 inches. The downsizing causes smoke spillage and poor draft, and my chimney and fireplace have wood timbers in direct contact with the brick of the fireplace and chimney, so I need a "zero/zero" install on my liner - he had never heard of the issue I raised, and I needed to call the provincial WETT office to have the issue sorted out. They confirmed my fear, that I had a noncompliant install, and that most tech had no idea about the insulation needs of older flues to meet code. City officials will usually go by whatever the WETT guy says, so the blind lead the blind.

Second, I wouldn't have placed the 2x4s under the Durock. As was once stated in a thread about mantle clearances, surrounding a combustible with a non combustible doesn't remove it, it hides it. That said, it looks like you are meeting the requirements of the stove manual, as the wood is more than 14 inches above the stove body- just make sure that the next guy who owns your house knows there is wood under there. My Jotul would never meet the clearances with the wood under the Durock.

Unfortunately, the clearances mentioned in the manual are for exposed wood - wood that recieves heat at a higher rate, but also cools more readily as well. Things like mantels and trim wood are what they are thinking about. They were not meant for dealing with wood embedded in walls. The fireplace and chimney need airspace from combustibles to prevent too much heat transfer to the wood. Is it a problem - read further....

As well, from what I see, you will need spark protection on the floor in front of the hearth. Even with the raised hearth, your manual calls for a total of 16 inches from the blower fan (manual says 6 inches on the hearth with 10 inches of spark protection beyond). In your previous thread, you mentioned only needing 18 inches from the glass - you should have 16 inches from the front of the blower based on the manual. It doesn't discuss 18 inches from glass. 18 inches isn't mentioned in the manual at all.

Do you have a code approved fireplace?

In the end, the question that is in play is "do you have an approved fireplace once you add the wood to it "- that is the problem. As your manual mentions " The masonry fireplace must meet the minimum code requirements, or NFPA 211 or the equivalent for a safe installation." The refacing you did would not likely pass code for a fireplace, and there is where the technicalities arise. Fireplaces have specific details on where wood can be, and how close it can be. When you added wood to the facing, you left the realm of insert install, and entered the realm of fireplace code (ULC S628 I think, vice CAN 635 which covers stoves)

As for the questions raised elsewhere about your extension( needing 18 inch legs...) , the stove is supposed to sit on the hearth of an approved fireplace, not just a noncombustible surface. The specific K/R values of the floor underneath aren't covered in detail in your manual, but they are covered in the code for fireplaces. The manual does mention that it is to sit on the hearth (Notice that the images in the manual show it as a thick surface, different from the framed floor). The intent of your manual is to discuss values of floor covering, as they assume it is fully on the fireplace floor (as shown on the manuals). Yours is somewhat out from the floor, and I have no idea if it will/won't be hot under there, but I do know that it isn't fully on the fireplace floor as per the manual.

In the end, I don't know if you are safe - you have to make that call - my concern for you is that you may not have a code approved fireplace, and that is a requirement for installation before anything else.

Unless you have tiled the durock, I would strip it down and use metal studs, or tapcon the durock to the brick, or do what I did, and have a concrete skim coat applied directly to the brick. That may get you the space to put the stove all the way onto the fireplace floor. If you can do that, I see no issues.

So, you've read it through - have a chat with the WETT guy who gave you the advice. Ask him what he thinks about the issue of the wood affecting the compliance of the fireplace. As well, others will no doubt critique what I have written - and we are all here to help. See what they say, and do what you decide is best.

Good luck.

For the rest of the readers - does anyone know what the code requirements are for a fireplace floor? That I would like to know....

RE: Second, I wouldn’t have placed the 2x4s under the Durock.

they are!

RE: the stove is supposed to sit on the hearth of an approved fireplace

It is ! it's an insert which was slid into the old existing fireplace meaning the bottom of the insert rests on the fireplace's firebricks.

RE: ... get you the space to put the stove all the way onto the fireplace floor.

It's is sitting all the way inside the onto the fireplace floor, what you are seeing in the pictures is the front glass door as it's a bay view model
and the blower motor that is protruding outwards. the actual firebox it self is resting inside the old masonry firebrick fireplace.

the Inspector for this area signed off on the clearance of the unit with the 12X12 tiling on the floor in front of it.
the stone slabs are 21X21 and because the bayview and blowermotor sits 10.4 inched outwards of the fireplace,
it was required to extend the spark protection further and it's approved to contnue such on the floor using simple tiling.

PeteD · Jan 12, 2009

67ref said:
the insulation you are seeing on the block-off plate picture is fireproof and is only the soft block-off the installation company provided.
I added the metal block-off plate myself. this is all done inside the firebrick masonry cavity of the chimney.

That makes sense. After looking at the manual, I think there are a couple of other constructive comments above that are worth looking into about the wood framing (not mantel and trim) and required clearances.

In regards to always trusting an installer/inspector, here is what I found ripping out my old fireplace - original to house (I was surprised):

Yep, a cardboard box left on top of my previous pre-fab ZC fireplace. It had Heatilator on the side, so maybe it was code-compliant (tongue firmly planted in cheek)?

I like the quality of your work, BTW.

Pete

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

I think perhaps it's this picture here that is throwing every thing off.

please understand, this is NOT insulation inside the wall with wooden framing you are seeing.
this is simply a soft block-off the installers added, it's fireproof.

I put in the metal block-off and sealed it up.

this is the inside of the original fireplace masonry chimney.

my 6" SS liner is inside the masonry cavity all the way from bottom to top.

any wall above the unit is the wooden framing from the home as the masonry chimney routes to the exterior of the home.

I'm not sure why this is not clear with all the pictures I've provided.
it's almost as if the though is that I just closed up a 6" liner inside a wooden structure with insulation.

which it is not!

this unit is an insert model approved ULC 628 CANADA to sit inside an existing masonry fireplace and chimney.

I'm going to see if the lads from the firestation will come and have a look and discuss.

thank you all ...

begreen · Jan 12, 2009

What is that strip on top of the block off plate? Temporary wood stiffner or is it metal?

karri0n · Jan 12, 2009

67ref said:
I'm going to see if the lads from the firestation will come and have a look and discuss.

Good call.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

PeteD,

that does look like a bit of a surprise you opened up there. aside from the cardboard box there appears to be plenty of wood in the back also.

many thanks on the comment of the quality of work, please understand it wasn't all done in one weekend,
it's been a long term project because I had to fix the floor and there were plenty of other issues with this living room.

thanks again!

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

BeGreen said:
What is that strip on top of the block off plate? Temporary wood stiffner or is it metal?

ahh ! good question, perhaps this is what folks are thinking is the wood or something.

no, that is not wood, I see the arrow you are pointing and thank you so very much for doing that.
what that is, is old rusted metal where the dampner was knocked out from.
two strips of that in the front and in the back, it's the metal crate that held the old dampner.
a type of metal when you knock it real hard with a hammer it breaks.

it is not wood.
it is inside the masonry chimney and was there prior to our insert going in.

the installers knocked out the dampner to make room to feed the 6" liner through as the dampner was only 5" across.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

karri0n said:
67ref said:

I'm going to see if the lads from the firestation will come and have a look and discuss.

Click to expand...

Good call.

yes, just got a call back from Fire Prevention's Office around here near my hometown.
unfortuantly I wasn't here to take the call, so I'll call back tomorrow and hope for them
to come out and we can go over this bit by bit and verify this is all on the up and up.

PeteD · Jan 12, 2009

67ref said:
PeteD,

that does look like a bit of a surprise you opened up there. aside from the cardboard box there appears to be plenty of wood in the back also.

many thanks on the comment of the quality of work, please understand it wasn't all done in one weekend,
it's been a long term project because I had to fix the floor and there were plenty of other issues with this living room.

thanks again!

Mine was (and is) a prefab, so the wood is normal. BeGreen pointed out my main concern with his arrow. Didn't look right, but I figured the photo was deceiving. It looked like you had framed and insulated inside your chimney. Emphasis on "looked like".

I would be pissed if you did all that in one weekend - that is way too much work for that. Actually, I would be upset if you did that all in a month of weekends for that matter. My projects take forever...

Pete

oconnor · Jan 12, 2009

67ref said:
RE: Second, I wouldn’t have placed the 2x4s under the Durock.

they are!

RE: the stove is supposed to sit on the hearth of an approved fireplace

It is ! it's an insert which was slid into the old existing fireplace meaning the bottom of the insert rests on the fireplace's firebricks.

RE: ... get you the space to put the stove all the way onto the fireplace floor.

It's is sitting all the way inside the onto the fireplace floor, what you are seeing in the pictures is the front glass door as it's a bay view model
and the blower motor that is protruding outwards. the actual firebox it self is resting inside the old masonry firebrick fireplace.

the Inspector for this area signed off on the clearance of the unit with the 12X12 tiling on the floor in front of it.
the stone slabs are 21X21 and because the bayview and blowermotor sits 10.4 inched outwards of the fireplace,
it was required to extend the spark protection further and it's approved to contnue such on the floor using simple tiling.

Agreed on the tiling question - just keep in mind the number is 16 from the front of the blower, vice 18 from the door, IAW the manual - odd they use the 16" from blower front number, most I've seen use the 18' from the door. - 12x12 tile on the floor will be lots.

From the pics it wasn't clear how much of the insert is on the stick framed rock covered extension - my point is that in the manual, they don't differentiate between "the part betheath the door" and "the rest of the unit", they require the entire unit to be installed on the floor of an approved fireplace.

As for the supposed fireproof insulation - I don't think so. I would get that out of there. Even rock wool, despite marketing saying that it melts at 2150*f, is not approved for install against a piece of steel liner that will reach 1200*F everyday, and 2100 F in a chimney fire. Lots of folks use it, but I'd like to see someone show me where the stuff installers shove against liners is rated IAW UL 1777/CAN 635 specs (1200 everyday, 2100 in a chimney fire). Approved liner insulation (AKA KAOWOOL), yes - fibreglass/rockwool, nope.

The question you are getting about wood is from the brown item in the pic above that runs left to right, just "below" the place near the top of the pic where the durock can be seen. What is it? That is what everybody is looking at. It looks like a piece of wood, but that obviously wouldn't make sense, but to me, neither does the yellow fiberglass batt.

I don't understand your remark "they are!". That is in fact my point. The fact that they are under the durock makes them integral to the fireplace. That means the issue isn't clearances to combustibles from the stove, but is about having an approved fireplace.

As I said, IMHO the addition of the wood framing under the Durock removes the "approved" from the "install in an approved fireplace" instruction, hence the code issues I see.

oconnor · Jan 12, 2009

carp said:
From what I recall in the application data sheet for Durock, you did same as I did but I am up on legs. The tile underneath, about 8inches from bottom of my stove, is barely warm with a 700 degree stove top temperature. Here is the document from the manufacturer. See if it gives you warm and fuzzies. You could uses a thermocouple on top of the tile under the insert to see what kind of temperature you are getting at the surface of the tile. Then take into account the heat transfer through the tile, and the heat transfer through the Durock to see if you risk approaching the temps necessary to rick the wood framing. Looks like you will also be moving air along that tile which is a plus.

http://www.usg.com/USG_Marketing_Co...d_Submittal_Sheets/CB198_Durock_Cement_Bd.pdf

The Durock, installed properly reduces needed clearances. Take a looksy.

Carp - what you are reffering to in the link is building a clearance reducing heat shield, with air gaps top and bottom. Unfortunatly when you use it as a wall covering with no airflow top and bottom, as is the case here, you don't get any reduced clearances to combustibles, just less combustibles. As for heat transfer to the wood studs, you need to take into account both the heat reaching them from the front (thru tile and durock) and from behind, thru the liner and brick.

67ref - did you insulate your liner (not the plate, but wrap the entire liner with ceramic wool blanket (Kaowool)? If you did, you will have greatly reduced the clearances needed between your chimney/fireplace and combustibles. That may be the solution instead of removing the wood studs that you attached to the fireplace face.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

oconnor said:
67ref said:

RE: Second, I wouldn’t have placed the 2x4s under the Durock.

they are!

RE: the stove is supposed to sit on the hearth of an approved fireplace

It is ! it's an insert which was slid into the old existing fireplace meaning the bottom of the insert rests on the fireplace's firebricks.

RE: ... get you the space to put the stove all the way onto the fireplace floor.

It's is sitting all the way inside the onto the fireplace floor, what you are seeing in the pictures is the front glass door as it's a bay view model
and the blower motor that is protruding outwards. the actual firebox it self is resting inside the old masonry firebrick fireplace.

the Inspector for this area signed off on the clearance of the unit with the 12X12 tiling on the floor in front of it.
the stone slabs are 21X21 and because the bayview and blowermotor sits 10.4 inched outwards of the fireplace,
it was required to extend the spark protection further and it's approved to contnue such on the floor using simple tiling.

Click to expand...

Agreed on the tiling question - just keep in mind the number is 16 from the front of the blower, vice 18 from the door, IAW the manual - odd they use the 16" from blower front number, most I've seen use the 18' from the door. - 12x12 tile on the floor will be lots.

From the pics it wasn't clear how much of the insert is on the stick framed rock covered extension - my point is that in the manual, they don't differentiate between "the part betheath the door" and "the rest of the unit", they require the entire unit to be installed on the floor of an approved fireplace.

As for the supposed fireproof insulation - I don't think so. I would get that out of there. Even rock wool, despite marketing saying that it melts at 2150*f, is not approved for install against a piece of steel liner that will reach 1200*F everyday, and 2100 F in a chimney fire. Lots of folks use it, but I'd like to see someone show me where the stuff installers shove against liners is rated IAW UL 1777/CAN 635 specs (1200 everyday, 2100 in a chimney fire). Approved liner insulation (AKA KAOWOOL), yes - fibreglass/rockwool, nope.

The question you are getting about wood is from the brown item in the pic above that runs left to right, just "below" the place near the top of the pic where the durock can be seen. What is it? That is what everybody is looking at. It looks like a piece of wood, but that obviously wouldn't make sense, but to me, neither does the yellow fiberglass batt.

I don't understand your remark "they are!". That is in fact my point. The fact that they are under the durock makes them integral to the fireplace. That means the issue isn't clearances to combustibles from the stove, but is about having an approved fireplace.

As I said, IMHO the addition of the wood framing under the Durock removes the "approved" from the "install in an approved fireplace" instruction, hence the code issues I see.

- - - -

RE: Approved liner insulation (AKA KAOWOOL), yes - fibreglass/rockwool, nope.

Yes, pardon me, I call it insulation, but you are right it is KOAWOOL as you put it I recall because prior to install
I was questioning the dealer whom was going to install about their method of providing a soft block-off, and at that time
it was mentioned that it would be done with KOAWOOL, so I'm to assume that's what they put it,
I asked for the the metal hard block off but they said I wouldn't need it and if I wanted it it would be extra
and that it was something I could do myself, I got the information on it and did the hard block-off myself,
sealed it all up and the final inspector commented on a fine job as well that he knew that installers don't
ussually want to go that extra mile and provide such. said it was perfect and to code, put his john henry on the paper
that he knew we were going to send to our insurance company, he nodded and was good with it, said that's how it's done.

the wood framing is 1" clearance to the old existing masonry stone, brick behind it, it can breath properly
and is to code as well, meets the manufactures spec of clearance to combustibles.

Rudyjr · Jan 12, 2009

67Ref, The picture with the arrow cleared up alot of questions. (thanks BeGreen) Pictures can be decieving, that cast iron damper throat looked a lot like a wood 2X4. I would'nt loose too much sleep over all of this especially if it was inspected. It would probably be a good idea to let the fire department guys have a look just to make doubley sure like you said for your own peace of mind.

oconnor · Jan 12, 2009

67ref said:
RE: Approved liner insulation (AKA KAOWOOL), yes - fibreglass/rockwool, nope.

Yes, pardon me, I call it insulation, but you are right it is KOAWOOL as you put it I recall because prior to install
I was questioning the dealer whom was going to install about their method of providing a soft block-off, and at that time
it was mentioned that it would be done with KOAWOOL, so I'm to assume that's what they put it,
I asked for the the metal hard block off but they said I wouldn't need it and if I wanted it it would be extra
and that it was something I could do myself, I got the information on it and did the hard block-off myself,
sealed it all up and the final inspector commented on a fine job as well that he knew that installers don't
ussually want to go that extra mile and provide such. said it was perfect and to code, put his john henry on the paper
that he knew we were going to send to our insurance company, he nodded and was good with it, said that's how it's done.

the wood framing is 1" clearance to the old existing masonry stone, brick behind it, it can breath properly
and is to code as well, meets the manufactures spec of clearance to combustibles.

You say you assume it is KAOWOOL, or did they say ROCKWOOL?. I doubt it is KAOWOOL, as a brick of KAOWOOL that size is big money. My guess is it's just yellow fibreglass. No way to tell now. I would ask the installer to show you the package that the stuff came in - if it ain't good to 2100F, then it doesn't belong there.

As for the wood framing - I am refering to the stuff you attached to the front of the fireplace, and it doesn't have 1 inch clearance, it is attached to the fireplace. Framing is what you did when you used 2x4s to "frame" the wall to attach the Durock to.

If you want to trust the inspector (you seem to quote him as a counter to the info I have put forward), then print of this thread and have him read it. He doesn't have to live in your house, you do. And you have conflicting info, so ask him and the installer to explain why I'm wrong and they are right. But if they can't explain it to you, you have a decision to make....

Sometimes, certifications and inspectors don’t cut it - even the guy who came in last at Med School gets to be called Doctor.

Sorry for the critical eye, but you didn't come here for a pat on the back, but for good information. Hopefully that is what you are finding.

67ref · Jan 12, 2009

Listen .... and you can fill in all the dirty names here.

how do you sitting on that end looking at my install and determine that "and it doesn’t have 1 inch clearance"
are you OK in the head, I fricken build this stuff, I have pictures of it you .... *%^#!$%

I don't need your blindfolded opinion to tell me that there is not 1 inch fricken clearance when in fact,
I can stick a finger comfortably behind the whole thing, get your head out of the ground man!

the framing is all 1 inch clearance from the masonry brick but ofcourse you know best sitting all the way
over there having no part of my install. yet somehow you can tel me there is not, you must have been
here while I was putting it together.

I'm done with you twisting and turning words around OK!

it's not just yellow insulation and it's not no 1 inch clearance,
try being here and putting it together then telling me that.

trust me I know what I'm looking at, I build it didn't I ?

the fireplace is just what it is, a masonry hole in the wall,
I framed out around it and the front and side portions sticks out past the old masonry work.

1 INCH specifically !!!

you must know best we'll have to figure.

your right, we'll just ASSUME it's just yellow insulation because you find it expensive or something.

thanks for everything but no thanks !!!

oconnor · Jan 12, 2009

67ref said:
Listen .... and you can fill in all the dirty names here.

how do you sitting on that end looking at my install and determine that "and it doesn’t have 1 inch clearance"
are you OK in the head, I fricken build this stuff, I have pictures of it you .... *%^#!$%

I don't need your blindfolded opinion to tell me that there is not 1 inch fricken clearance when in fact,
I can stick a finger comfortably behind the whole thing, get your head out of the ground man!

the framing is all 1 inch clearance from the masonry brick but ofcourse you know best sitting all the way
over there having no part of my install. yet somehow you can tel me there is not, you must have been
here while I was putting it together.

I'm done with you twisting and turning words around OK!

it's not just yellow insulation and it's not no 1 inch clearance,
try being here and putting it together then telling me that.

trust me I know what I'm looking at, I build it didn't I ?

the fireplace is just what it is, a masonry hole in the wall,
I framed out around it and the front and side portions sticks out past the old masonry work.

1 INCH specifically

you must know best we'll have to figure.

your right, we'll just ASSUME it's just yellow insulation because you find it expensive or something.

thanks for everything but no thanks

OK pal, you are the man.....

You are being very brash here. Does the wood touch the brick? If it does, then it doesn't have any clearance, if it doesn't then it doesn't and all you have to do is state that, not blow up at someone who came to your aide. If you want to reread your response to me, and to the last guy in your last thread, you may see that you seem to not want the truth- you came here for information, and you got it.

In fact, you came here SCARED with FEAR, and you were looking for facts.

Fact - you have no idea what the insulation is - I hope it is the right stuff.
Fact - you don't like what you are hearing from me - then don't read it - but don't say you didn't get the information that you asked for,
Fact - you are being a raving fool to those who who want to help you do the right thing. I realize that it SUCKS to find out you spent THOUSANDS on an install to find out the expert was wrong - that is why I post here on this forum, because it happened to me - I spent THOUSANDS on an install to disciver it doesn't meet code.

To bad.....

Please help, fear instilled by others on install job

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