Experimental install

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BrownianHeatingTech

Minister of Fire
Just finished up the last few bits (except insulation) on an experimental install.

Boiler is a Fröling Turbo 3000, 50kW, connected to three 220-gallon pressurized storage tanks (660 gallons total storage).

BioHeat was interested in getting some practical feedback on the installation of these boilers prior to finalizing the manual and shipping them to customers, so we worked out a deal to get a boiler a bit early and provide them with that.

This was a particularly-good application for such an experiment, as we have a number of things going on all at once. The original house was heated by an oil-fired forced-hot-air furnace, and we've disconnected the burner on that, but continue to use the blower with a heat exchanger in order to provide heat through the existing ductwork.

There is an addition on the house which uses an oil-fired boiler to operate in-floor radiant heat. We tied into the primary loop on that boiler and ran the 30 feet back to the wood boiler (installed next to the disconnected oil furnace) with pex-al-pex. That connection is set up to allow bi-directional heat transfer, so the wood boiler system can send heat over to the radiant zones, or the oil boiler can send heat over to the furnace heat exchanger. The piping is simple for that, but the controls are a wee bit more complex than the norm, since there are four states of operation (oil boiler heating its own zones, oil boiler heating furnace heat exchanger, wood boiler heating furnace heat exchanger, wood boiler heating oil boiler zones).

Since the purpose of this project was to provide an experimental platform, we did a few other things interesting. First was to install the power-failure zone valve on the return side of the system, bypassing the Termovar and pump. In a power failure, the valve springs open, allowing gravity convection from the boiler to the tanks, which should have more than enough ability to absorb the small amount of heat that the boiler will contain. It should be noted that the Fröling boilers run on 220V, and the pumps/controls run on 120V - the zone valve is connected to the pump circuit, so that any failure there will allow for convection. The Fröling boiler has a manual-reset overheat sensor which shuts the boiler down in an overheat situation.

The zone valves for the zones are Caleffi motorized ball valves, which draw extremely little power to operate (4 VA), although it should be noted that they are power-open and power-close, so you need a control that can supply both signals, rather than the typical power-open and spring-close control strategy. They also provide extremely little flow restriction, which can be helpful.

A Ranco ETC provides tank temperature display, as well as switchover from wood to oil backup. The Fröling also has a pair of tank temperature sensors (upper and lower), allowing it to operate its own pump. It also has a boiler-temp sensor, a flue-temp sensor, and, of course, the oxygen sensor.

It's been an interesting install, given the number of items we were experimenting with, as well as the "compact" space we had available (even after the homeowner was kind enough to move a wall to increase the space we had to play with), and they've been more than kind in putting up with some unavoidable delays due to backordered material, as well as odd hours tinkering with the project to get it right.

I have a whole list of notes for BioHeat, which will hopefully help others install these boilers in a much-smoother manner, but the biggest note I would like to make publicly at this time is that the Fröling has a powerful induced-draft fan. Particularly when it speeds up an additional 15-20% while the main door is open (to capture smoke). A quality flue is a must. We're only dealing with a ranch, here, and pushing gasses up one storey of 6" square tile chimney is enough of a backpressure to cause significant smoke leakage from any available gap. Large quantities of RTV silicone has stopped that, but all future installs I do will only use stainless chimneys (or a continuous stainless liner in the tile chimney), or will at least include a disclaimer than lining the chimney may be required, after the system is tested. Of course, the Fröling boilers are not exactly cheap, so the added cost of a bit of chimney liner is not a huge change in the job price.

It's an impressive piece of equipment, though, and I can't wait to get one for my own house/shop. I'm getting sick of paying the oil man, but I need to do some significant remodeling and structural improvements before I can install the boiler in the intended location, so that will have to wait a bit. For one thing, I need to pour a footing to support the storage tanks, and I don't want to try that during the middle of the winter.

I should have some pictures to post in a couple days.

Joe
 
Sounds fascinating- all around- can't wait to learn more.

Trevor
 
You brought up quite a few good points in your installation. Wondering though, at what point should footings be considered for basement storage tanks. How much will a 4" poured slab support?
 
pybyr said:
Sounds fascinating- all around- can't wait to learn more.

Feel free to ask any questions you might have...

chuck172 said:
You brought up quite a few good points in your installation. Wondering though, at what point should footings be considered for basement storage tanks. How much will a 4" poured slab support?

I couldn't tell you what a slab will supprt (I leave that to concrete contractors), but the 220-gallon tanks weigh about 2250 pounds, each, when full (water weight, tank weight, and an allowance for the iron headers). With a safety factor, call it roughly 800 pounds per square foot on the footprint, or about 135 psi on the edge of the support ring. Those numbers would let a concrete contractor design a slab, I expect...

My situation is further complicated by the fact that the boiler and tanks will be at the first-floor level, not the basement level, so they will actually be on a floor, which will need to be braced below to support them.

Joe
 
This all sounds very interesting. Do you have any pictures to share? Tanks and piping especially. Any details on how you configured the controls to work all those options? thanks

hr
 
The Froling is a negative draft, right? I would love to see what the hx tubes and fan look like on that unit. I would also be interested in how well the fan holds up over time. I have heard that those negative draft fans take more of a beating with the temps and particles they have to put up with. Pictures please...
 
in hot water said:
This all sounds very interesting. Do you have any pictures to share? Tanks and piping especially. Any details on how you configured the controls to work all those options?

Pictures should be coming late Monday, or sometime Tuesday. I loaned out my camera, and I need to get it back so I can download the pictures.

The three tanks are headered together, with a tee at each end of each header. The right-top tee connects to the boiler supply, and the left-top tee goes out to the Termovar diverter valve and from there to the zones. The left-bottom tee connects to the Termovar mixing valve and from there to the boiler pump and the boiler return. The right-bottom tee connects to the return from the zones. The zones are connected through a hydro-separator. The power-failure zone valve connects from a tee at the boiler return to a tee in the zone return pipe, right after it comes off the header.

Operating on wood is pretty simple and straightforward. When the oil boiler is heating for both, the pump on the zone side of the hydro-separator operates, allowing the heated water from the oil boiler to blend with the water to the furnace coil (essentially using the hydro-separator like a tiny buffer tank). The hydro-separator keeps the oil-heated water separate from the wood boiler and storage tanks, so it never heats them.

The controls are all relay-logic. This is an ideal situation for using a computerized system, as complex logic would be just a matter of setting a few rules, rather than wiring half a dozen relays as well as zone valve end switches. I kept this simple because so many other aspects were experimental. The core is the Tarm "BLT" control, along with relays (Taco SR501's) for each zone, for the zone pump, and to activate the oil boiler's primary loop when the wood boiler is pumping heat over to it. It's also set up so that any time a zone runs at the wood boiler, it also pumps heat to the oil boiler's primary loop (but does not turn on the primary-loop pump, until a zone at that end calls), as that will reduce the lag time for heat to get over there. Since that only happens when the zone is calling for heat, and all but a few feet of the pex is located under the floor of the zone that is calling, the waste heat isn't an issue.

Speaking of controls, though, I'm really liking those Ranco ETC controls. Far easier to work with than a typical aquastat, other than having to supply power to them. The ability to have a readout of the temp and easily set things more than makes up for having to run one or two extra wires, and the 8-foot lead wire makes it simple to have the tank control on the side of the boiler where the operator can easily see if the tanks need charging, rather than trying to guess at the tank temperature, or scroll through the menus on the Fröling.

WoodNotOil said:
The Froling is a negative draft, right? I would love to see what the hx tubes and fan look like on that unit. I would also be interested in how well the fan holds up over time. I have heard that those negative draft fans take more of a beating with the temps and particles they have to put up with.

Induced draft is the term. The tubes are standard vertical firetubes. The turbulators are spiral springs (look like a stretched-out slinky) connected to an agitator cam. Give the lever a swing every time you re-load the boiler, and theoretically you won't need to ever clean the tubes. That aspect was particularly in the Fröling's favor in this situation, due to the low ceilings in this basement, which would make cleaning with a brush difficult. There is a separate door in the side of the boiler, toward the back, which allows access to the chamber below the firetubes for ash removal. That door, the agitator handle, and the side-mounted air-control servo motors are mountable on either side of the boiler, allowing it to be fully ambidextrous (useful again in this case, since there is limited clearance on the right side of the boiler).

Given the "clean" environment that a gasifier creates, I expect that the fan will last pretty well. It seems to be pretty well-balanced, given how dead quiet it is (literally, you have trouble knowing if this thing is running). We'll have to see what temps the flue gasses get up to, when the system is running hot, because during the start-up phases when I've been there, the temps have been extremely low.

Joe
 
I've got to second that on the Ranco ETC controls. They are great. They revolutionize mechanical aquastats. I'm also very happy with my Tekmar 156.
 
This sounds like very a cool project, Joe. Thanks for sharing, and we all look forward to the pics and data as you get it dialed in. What is the power rating (HP/watts) of the inducer fan? At 220V she is pulling a lot less amps, but back up power planning obviously gets a little more complicated with the Frohling.

The GARN draft induction fan uses a very robust impeller, and I imagine it will last for many years. The small amount of particulates that do make it to the impeller are probably not hard enough to cause erosion, either on the GARN or the Frohling.
 
Jim K in PA said:
What is the power rating (HP/watts) of the inducer fan? At 220V she is pulling a lot less amps, but back up power planning obviously gets a little more complicated with the Frohling.

I believe that the whole boiler is rated at 150 watts, but don't quote me on it.

Of course, it's a variable-speed fan, so it doesn't draw peak power during operation (it only goes to 100% when the main door is open, and tops out at 85% during a burn).

And yes, being 220V and computerized does make backup power more complex, if someone wants to use an inverter system. It is my presumption, at least, that it won't play nice with anything short of a full sine wave, and choices in 220V are limited, anyway. Once the boilers are fully rolled-out and things have settled down, we'll get some firm data from the factory regarding what power quality it needs, and an accurate power consumption profile.

Joe
 
Using a step up transformer will clean up the output of a cheap inverter.

Chris
 
joe, i would be curious to know what the target o2% is, and how low the inducer fan speed drops to after the o2 target is unachievable, when the fire is basically coals. would you know if they use a bosch lsm 11 o2 sensor. thanks tom
 
Good point on the tight chimney liner. I suspect there could be a bit of danger here when chimney is positive pressured. Gasification might just clean up things enough that CO could enter a house without the usual telltale signs (smoke smell, in the case of most wood combustion).

A suggestion would be to have the importers talk to the factory and see what the standard and manuals say about installation of this in Germany and Europe - if they suggest a chimney rated for positive (even slightly) pressure, then it should be considered here as well. That's not a small point......given the porous nature of most masonry chimneys.
 
BrownianHeatingTech said:
pybyr said:
Sounds fascinating- all around- can't wait to learn more.

Feel free to ask any questions you might have...

chuck172 said:
You brought up quite a few good points in your installation. Wondering though, at what point should footings be considered for basement storage tanks. How much will a 4" poured slab support?

I couldn't tell you what a slab will supprt (I leave that to concrete contractors), but the 220-gallon tanks weigh about 2250 pounds, each, when full (water weight, tank weight, and an allowance for the iron headers). With a safety factor, call it roughly 800 pounds per square foot on the footprint, or about 135 psi on the edge of the support ring. Those numbers would let a concrete contractor design a slab, I expect...

My situation is further complicated by the fact that the boiler and tanks will be at the first-floor level, not the basement level, so they will actually be on a floor, which will need to be braced below to support them.

Joe



FYI, Concrete load strength is measured in PSI with 3000 PSI mix being the standard.
 
I did a fair amount of searching before I installed my "tank rack" and found the same info (3000psi concrete strength). But slab loading and concrete "strength" seem to be two very different issues. 3,000psi is a lot of load and I couldn't bring myself to believe my 3-4" concrete slab would actually support that much. My stacked 500 gallon tanks run right around 150psi at the floor supports and that seems plenty heavy enough for residential...
 
"My stacked 500 gallon tanks run right around 150psi at the floor supports and that seems plenty heavy enough for residential"...[/quote]

Are you saying that 3-4" of poured concrete will be plenty enough for stacked 500 gallon tanks?
 
In my opinion, yes, my slab will support my stacked tanks. But I don't think a 3-4" slab will truly support 3,000psi of "load"....
 
I consulted an engineer buddy when looking at basement storage tanks,
and got some pretty good info.. I was told that the 3K load number
is the failure point for 6 bag mix.

How well a standard 4" slab will hold up as a practical matter
is based primarialy on what's underneath it ie "cut to grade" or
if well compacted soil ect. Just look at the loads that blue board
foam holds under a 4" slab.

I was advised that one needs a min. 6" slab + footings with rebar before
it can be "engineered". I sleep well at night with a 500 gal tank on
my basement floor with a standard 4.5" slab. It doesn't come close to max
loads.. You need engineered slabs for loads like loaded fire
trucks in a garage IMO. Dan
 
I'm sorry Joe, I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread on the experimental install. The question of slab strength and tank weight is important and should have it's own topic.
 
slowzuki said:
The psi of the concrete and the loading from a tank are not comparable numbers. Don't think that 3000 psi concrete will hold 3000 psi of load.

Actually 3000 PSI means that a core sample must hold 3000 PSI when pressure tested. If the core doesn't hold 3000 PSI then the floor would fail and in some cases (If the load requires a 3000 PSI load strength) would have to be torn out and repoured. As was said before the grade marital under the slab has as much to do with the strength of the concrete as the slab itself does. A 4" slab of 3000 PSI mix WILL hold 3000 PSI by ITSELF. I know this because I have tested core samples before. I'm not saying it will or will not hold (I don't know the condition of the grade material) just trying to give him some numbers to work with. If the load is only 150 PSI then it should easily hold. It may cause the floor to crack but it will hold.

Sorry to be so long winded just wanted to clarify.
 
chuck172 said:
I'm sorry Joe, I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread on the experimental install. The question of slab strength and tank weight is important and should have it's own topic.

That's okay. I'll take it back by adding pictures...

Joe
 

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How much storage Joe? The grey tank is the exp tank? And the black tank is the storage? What is the small black cylinder?

50kw=> 170,650 Btuh. I am guessing that 750-1000 gallon would be ideal for this boiler for rapid recharge.
 
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