I notice a lot of people trashing Vermont Castings lately. Are they engaging in poor business practices of late, or failing to respond to warranty claims? Are they now making an inferior product or outsourcing? I was under the impression that they were one of the premier stove manufacturers, at least until recently.
Why do people trash VC?
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Stevebass4
Minister of Fire
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
Failure by the current owner to honor the warranty on stoves that were sold recently from the previous owners of the company is a big one. A stab in the back for current customers.
Glowing stoves are "normal" according to the company but the owner's manual indicates that it is overfire is another reason.
Poor parts availablility and poor materials of construction is huge. Shoddy construction.
Shoddy designs causing glowing stoves and difficult operation.
The VC stoves from decades ago were excellent. Those stoves made a name for the company and that name has now been trashed by the new owners. Hey, the VC stoves are pretty, no doubt about it.
Glowing stoves are "normal" according to the company but the owner's manual indicates that it is overfire is another reason.
Poor parts availablility and poor materials of construction is huge. Shoddy construction.
Shoddy designs causing glowing stoves and difficult operation.
The VC stoves from decades ago were excellent. Those stoves made a name for the company and that name has now been trashed by the new owners. Hey, the VC stoves are pretty, no doubt about it.
ohhhh ok, the VC ae the ones with the Neverburn technology and the glowing China syndrome rear end. I've seen several threads, but I thought those were "dutchwest" or something like that. Pleading ignorance in 5...4...3...
VC foundries made and continue to make excellent castings. They are used in VC and several other stoves. Problems started occurring as VC modified it's excellent designs for stricter EPA regulations. A few of these modified designs were ok and others, real turkeys. I.E.: the late 80's, early 90's Resolute Acclaim. VC cat designs have been more successful and continue to be decent stoves. The VC NC stoves have not done as well. Although they test well in the laboratory, unless they are installed in almost the same conditions as the lab (unlikely) they don't perform as well. They can burn too hot (glowing stove) and be difficult to regulate. Their refractory package breaks down regularly.
VC has been bought and sold by some badly managed companies as well. Apparently one management decision was to use a lesser grade ceramic refractory assembly in the newer stoves. This was a very bad decision. It has led to costly repairs on a regular basis and further tarnished the VC name. Last year VC raised replacement parts cost significantly, further increasing owner pain. Then the parent company went bankrupt and refused to honor past warranties. That has led to some very unhappy users.
All of this is a real shame. The core castings are first rate and these are very attractive stoves. The lineup covers a wide range of needs. But ultimately a stove should not need a major costly rebuild every 3-5 years.
VC has been bought and sold by some badly managed companies as well. Apparently one management decision was to use a lesser grade ceramic refractory assembly in the newer stoves. This was a very bad decision. It has led to costly repairs on a regular basis and further tarnished the VC name. Last year VC raised replacement parts cost significantly, further increasing owner pain. Then the parent company went bankrupt and refused to honor past warranties. That has led to some very unhappy users.
All of this is a real shame. The core castings are first rate and these are very attractive stoves. The lineup covers a wide range of needs. But ultimately a stove should not need a major costly rebuild every 3-5 years.
Diabel
Minister of Fire
I do not know if CT is happy with his stove but I will give my opinion.
The stove is ok, it gives me 6hrs of very good heat out of full (2.1 cf) box of hardwood. It was never meant to be a primary heat source. In the past three years it has cut my NG bill in half (500 per season). I scrounge 80% of my wood. So, two more seasons & the stove has paid for its self.
Three years ago I wish I did go for the cat model (2250) the price was the same. The dealer talked me out of it insisting that the 2550 was no where close as good of a stove as the older brother 2190. So who knows maybe I would be happy with the cat stove or maybe it would be just ok!
Performance aside, I still think it is the best looking stove on the market!
The stove is ok, it gives me 6hrs of very good heat out of full (2.1 cf) box of hardwood. It was never meant to be a primary heat source. In the past three years it has cut my NG bill in half (500 per season). I scrounge 80% of my wood. So, two more seasons & the stove has paid for its self.
Three years ago I wish I did go for the cat model (2250) the price was the same. The dealer talked me out of it insisting that the 2550 was no where close as good of a stove as the older brother 2190. So who knows maybe I would be happy with the cat stove or maybe it would be just ok!
Performance aside, I still think it is the best looking stove on the market!
They look similar to the Isle Royale, which I consider to be the best looking stove on the market 
Diabel
Minister of Fire
I also did think a lot about IR (could not agree more they look alike) however I was worried about the moving burn tubes...I thought that it may create issues in a long run. Also, all the handles were gold & not so "nice" dealer assured me that these stove only come with gold handles.
From what I read here it is common to get 6 hrs of good heat from IR. Therefore I feel that my Encore is a bit more wood efficient with a smaller fire box.
From what I read here it is common to get 6 hrs of good heat from IR. Therefore I feel that my Encore is a bit more wood efficient with a smaller fire box.
I read enough trash talk here that at 1st I wished I hadn't gone with a DutchWest 2462 catalytic. I have only owned it 1 month so the other shoe may be ready to drop - - but - - once I got dialed in on how to adjust and load - I am getting 10 hour burns and great wood "mileage". I've been burning hardwood 24/7 since Christmas and have no complaints. If I'm over confident I'm sure someone will let me know - -but I haven't had any evidence of problems. P.S. Pyro Extraordinaire - to your earlier point - -it is cute[......
......
Valhalla
Minister of Fire
The people that disparage Vermont Castings typically:
Do not own one.
or
Never owned one.
or
Sell or profit from another brand.
It is like asking a Ford guy about a Chevy.
Vermont Castings continues to manufacture stoves with an excellent reputation and many desirable features. Choose wisely as you would for a car or truck purchase.
Do not own one.
or
Never owned one.
or
Sell or profit from another brand.
It is like asking a Ford guy about a Chevy.
Vermont Castings continues to manufacture stoves with an excellent reputation and many desirable features. Choose wisely as you would for a car or truck purchase.
dougand3
Minister of Fire
Albeit, I'm a newbie at serious woodburning, but I have been quite pleased with my early 90's Resolute Acclaim. 20 - 40 deg F outside temp and 1400 sf ranch stays 72 - 76 deg F. Stove seems miserly with wood, too. I'd buy it again in a heartbeat - it was used with cheap price. Don't think I would buy new VC now with the corporate turmoil. Doug
hookspacken
Member
My dutchwest cat. stove has been a workhorse since I got it 3 years ago. I have had no problems and it runs like a champ, 24/7. Plus, I love the look of the dutchwest cat stove!
Diabel said:
My IR is probably at least 5 years old, and has been driven HARD by previous tenants of the place, as well as myself when i was on the learning curve. I can say I've not had any trouble with the burn tubes, but that 6 hours is about right. I wouldn't consider it to be 6 hours of meaningful heat, but 6 hours before you have to reload. Much longer than that and it gets difficult to restart with the small amount of coals I have left. I've heard that others with this stove can get 12 hours, and I have 30' of pipe coming off the thing, so I very well may need a pipe damper.
The fact that I can NOT overnight burn the thing really makes me wish I had a cat stove, though.
Diabel
Minister of Fire
karri0n said:
I am no expert but with a 30' pipe you should get a flue damper. You should get at least 6 hrs of meaningful heat from that big boy.
I am glad that the stove is working out! For me when I was shopping around the system looked a bit too complicated. But obviously it works fine (in your case at least).
Sometimes people expect too much from their stoves, they're just space heaters & will only run the way you operate them.
Hanko
Minister of Fire
cant figure out why they trash VC, There are three of them in our family, mine works better than the F-500 I have.
my first stove is still the one i own.
it is a VC Cat Intrepid- only~3 yrs old. (bought new)
cant be happier- build solid-(compared to my shoping and what i see at other homes) puts out a buttload of heat, and evey burner that shows up is amazed how small and efficent it is.
my home is a very drafty 1100 sq feet. and normally around 68-71.
stove is central located
i would consider an upgrade... those 5-10 degree days were tough and i really had to crank to maintain 68.... and 16" log is kind of small... but these were all my choices when i shopped.
i have nothing but praise for a stove I originally bought as a 'occasional supplemental' that I now run 12-24hrs a day.
it is a VC Cat Intrepid- only~3 yrs old. (bought new)
cant be happier- build solid-(compared to my shoping and what i see at other homes) puts out a buttload of heat, and evey burner that shows up is amazed how small and efficent it is.
my home is a very drafty 1100 sq feet. and normally around 68-71.
stove is central located
i would consider an upgrade... those 5-10 degree days were tough and i really had to crank to maintain 68.... and 16" log is kind of small... but these were all my choices when i shopped.
i have nothing but praise for a stove I originally bought as a 'occasional supplemental' that I now run 12-24hrs a day.
I've been burning a VC Madison in a ~2000 sqft house with poorly installed R7 insulation since the fall of 2004.
I've had several disappointments with it.
First of all, I need to fill it with wood every few hours and empty the ash drawer every morning. It doesn't do it itself.
Second of all, it overfires. For example, when my wife stuffed it full of very dry silver maple on top of 2" of hot coals when it was below zero outside last week and left air intake 1/2 way open the griddle temperature shot from 300 degrees to 900 degrees while she took a shower. Any other brand wouldn't have done that. Right?
Third, it doesn't always produce the amount of heat I want. The above incident was the only time last week the thing heated most of the house to 70. The rest of the time the furnace (set for 68) would kick on for 5-10 minutes every hour while the stove top was between 500 and 600 degrees. I think a non-VC stove would be able to heat my entire house when the outdoor temperatures are -6 to +10 for days on end and yet not overheat the living room when its 40+ outside. Right?
Fourth, the payback was a long time. With 3-6 loadings of (almost) free wood a day it only cuts the gas bill (hot water, dryer, oven, furnace) in half. At that rate, it took one and a half heating seasons to pay for itself, the connector pipes, and the hearth pad. It took another year to pay for the chainsaw (that I needed anyway) and 30 ton splitter through natural gas savings.
You also can't forget that VCs are ugly. Mine looks like this in flat black paint -
The wife would much prefer one of these in the living room -
Finally, VC has stopped making this stove a couple years ago. They are getting hard to find new so I might not be able to get an identical one to replace it if I needed to. Which I would otherwise do without hesitation.
I've had several disappointments with it.
First of all, I need to fill it with wood every few hours and empty the ash drawer every morning. It doesn't do it itself.
Second of all, it overfires. For example, when my wife stuffed it full of very dry silver maple on top of 2" of hot coals when it was below zero outside last week and left air intake 1/2 way open the griddle temperature shot from 300 degrees to 900 degrees while she took a shower. Any other brand wouldn't have done that. Right?
Third, it doesn't always produce the amount of heat I want. The above incident was the only time last week the thing heated most of the house to 70. The rest of the time the furnace (set for 68) would kick on for 5-10 minutes every hour while the stove top was between 500 and 600 degrees. I think a non-VC stove would be able to heat my entire house when the outdoor temperatures are -6 to +10 for days on end and yet not overheat the living room when its 40+ outside. Right?
Fourth, the payback was a long time. With 3-6 loadings of (almost) free wood a day it only cuts the gas bill (hot water, dryer, oven, furnace) in half. At that rate, it took one and a half heating seasons to pay for itself, the connector pipes, and the hearth pad. It took another year to pay for the chainsaw (that I needed anyway) and 30 ton splitter through natural gas savings.
You also can't forget that VCs are ugly. Mine looks like this in flat black paint -
The wife would much prefer one of these in the living room -
Finally, VC has stopped making this stove a couple years ago. They are getting hard to find new so I might not be able to get an identical one to replace it if I needed to. Which I would otherwise do without hesitation.
I did, however notice that most everyone in here who likes their VC has a VC Cat, as opposed to a VC Neverburn model.
Diabel
Minister of Fire
Karl,
I do not think it would be a hard stove to replace...One oil drum, few brackets & a rented welding machine ...plus make sure you assemble it in your living room :lol:
I do not think it would be a hard stove to replace...One oil drum, few brackets & a rented welding machine ...plus make sure you assemble it in your living room :lol:
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
VC went belly-up TWICE in the last 4 years. That, in itself, makes it 100% unique among large stove makers. There has been very little consistency of the customer service people (most are long gone), so all the folks who really KNEW about a lot of the tech stuff are not there. In fact, I don't think there is even one person in customer service or tech from the past.
During the transitions, there were some problems - especially with the Everburn models. Much of it may have simply been the lack of good answers, instructions, etc.
When they went bankrupt less than one year ago (was it June?), the new company set in motion a policy which DENIES warranty coverage to those still under warranty with stoves older than one year.
PLEASE COMPARE THAT TO A CAR MAKER.
Here is a somewhat longer story/opinion from an industry insider:
http://www.epinions.com/content_5195079812
Lots of stories on the web about the bankruptcy:
http://tinyurl.com/b287xs
So, is this Forum a place to bash VC. Well, the same thing was said when many here reported FACTS about Harman Stove running out of money. We cautioned against paying full price for the stoves until the company was sound again or had been bought...which it WAS. And, all past warranties were covered.
As to VC, we have heard absolutely nothing from them. One of the last "old guys" who was a manager at the company which bought them just left. They have a printed policy which can deny warranty coverage to most of the people who had it, etc. etc.
I try to look at these things as if I were giving advice to a family member or good friend. In general, I would not suggest paying a high price for a stove from a company which went bust twice in the last 4 years (and completely bankrupt in the last year), AND has refused to cover warranties as previously stated AND has not maintained communications within the industry AND has had some problem (which were denied, then admitted) with their newer technology.
OH, on top of all this they doubled and tripled the replacement parts prices a year ago when they were trying to survive.
If only one or two of these things were true, that would be par for the course. But with ALL of them being facts, it is very hard for me to bless the company and their products for a current purchaser at full retail prices. After all, paying full price should entitle you to a full warranty, customer service, etc.
Keep in mind that I was - and my store still is - a DEALER for Vermont Castings products, and I have sold and used many of their stoves. I am good friends with many of the former executives and tech people and have no cross to bear. I simply am giving advice based upon the situation as I know it right now.
Everyone loves the VC story. I have written extensively about it here on the site - for the historic record and those interested.
If you want to read some of the stories, go to:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/
and type Vermont Castings into the search box.
Can the brand and stoves be saved? Yes, of course! Is there clear evidence that the attitude and business model has changed? None that I know of yet. The new company is part of an extensive "holding" company which is out to make profits. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but whether they know exactly what made the brand great is another story. Perhaps THEY should read the wiki articles, interview the past workers and executives, etc.
Meantime, they make the best stove castings in the world, IMHO. I will give them that. Heck, I bought a cast iron frying pan recently made by them!
During the transitions, there were some problems - especially with the Everburn models. Much of it may have simply been the lack of good answers, instructions, etc.
When they went bankrupt less than one year ago (was it June?), the new company set in motion a policy which DENIES warranty coverage to those still under warranty with stoves older than one year.
PLEASE COMPARE THAT TO A CAR MAKER.
Here is a somewhat longer story/opinion from an industry insider:
http://www.epinions.com/content_5195079812
Lots of stories on the web about the bankruptcy:
http://tinyurl.com/b287xs
So, is this Forum a place to bash VC. Well, the same thing was said when many here reported FACTS about Harman Stove running out of money. We cautioned against paying full price for the stoves until the company was sound again or had been bought...which it WAS. And, all past warranties were covered.
As to VC, we have heard absolutely nothing from them. One of the last "old guys" who was a manager at the company which bought them just left. They have a printed policy which can deny warranty coverage to most of the people who had it, etc. etc.
I try to look at these things as if I were giving advice to a family member or good friend. In general, I would not suggest paying a high price for a stove from a company which went bust twice in the last 4 years (and completely bankrupt in the last year), AND has refused to cover warranties as previously stated AND has not maintained communications within the industry AND has had some problem (which were denied, then admitted) with their newer technology.
OH, on top of all this they doubled and tripled the replacement parts prices a year ago when they were trying to survive.
If only one or two of these things were true, that would be par for the course. But with ALL of them being facts, it is very hard for me to bless the company and their products for a current purchaser at full retail prices. After all, paying full price should entitle you to a full warranty, customer service, etc.
Keep in mind that I was - and my store still is - a DEALER for Vermont Castings products, and I have sold and used many of their stoves. I am good friends with many of the former executives and tech people and have no cross to bear. I simply am giving advice based upon the situation as I know it right now.
Everyone loves the VC story. I have written extensively about it here on the site - for the historic record and those interested.
If you want to read some of the stories, go to:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/
and type Vermont Castings into the search box.
Can the brand and stoves be saved? Yes, of course! Is there clear evidence that the attitude and business model has changed? None that I know of yet. The new company is part of an extensive "holding" company which is out to make profits. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but whether they know exactly what made the brand great is another story. Perhaps THEY should read the wiki articles, interview the past workers and executives, etc.
Meantime, they make the best stove castings in the world, IMHO. I will give them that. Heck, I bought a cast iron frying pan recently made by them!
Hanko
Minister of Fire
KarlP said:I've been burning a VC Madison in a ~2000 sqft house with poorly installed R7 insulation since the fall of 2004.
I've had several disappointments with it.
First of all, I need to fill it with wood every few hours and empty the ash drawer every morning. It doesn't do it itself.
Second of all, it overfires. For example, when my wife stuffed it full of very dry silver maple on top of 2" of hot coals when it was below zero outside last week and left air intake 1/2 way open the griddle temperature shot from 300 degrees to 900 degrees while she took a shower. Any other brand wouldn't have done that. Right?
Third, it doesn't always produce the amount of heat I want. The above incident was the only time last week the thing heated most of the house to 70. The rest of the time the furnace (set for 68) would kick on for 5-10 minutes every hour while the stove top was between 500 and 600 degrees. I think a non-VC stove would be able to heat my entire house when the outdoor temperatures are -6 to +10 for days on end and yet not overheat the living room when its 40+ outside. Right?
Fourth, the payback was a long time. With 3-6 loadings of (almost) free wood a day it only cuts the gas bill (hot water, dryer, oven, furnace) in half. At that rate, it took one and a half heating seasons to pay for itself, the connector pipes, and the hearth pad. It took another year to pay for the chainsaw (that I needed anyway) and 30 ton splitter through natural gas savings.
You also can't forget that VCs are ugly. Mine looks like this in flat black paint -
The wife would much prefer one of these in the living room -
Finally, VC has stopped making this stove a couple years ago. They are getting hard to find new so I might not be able to get an identical one to replace it if I needed to. Which I would otherwise do without hesitation.
That looks just like my wife, how did she get over to your house?
??? your wife looks like a 50 gal drum????
anyway... my dw stove is ok... it glows red, but i guess thats the norm...
it heats my house... thats what i bought it for... i just hope it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to repair once the parts start to wear out from extreme heat....
anyway... my dw stove is ok... it glows red, but i guess thats the norm...
it heats my house... thats what i bought it for... i just hope it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to repair once the parts start to wear out from extreme heat....
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