Definitive Pacific Energy EBT test . . .

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Frank, you're still chewing this bone after how many years now? Good to have you back, and to see you finally put your stove to the test and observed the EBT in action (although your temp range for actuation was probably a little skewed, due to the cooling affect created by the open ash drawer).

Your test exactly illustrates what I've been trying to explain on my website at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm the whole time. I think one problem people have grasping the concept as I present it might be my lifelong inability to explain things very well. It could also have something to do with the illustrations: in order to fully show the EBT in action, it took me several diagrams, which might make it seem like the EBT is operating throughout the entire burn cycle. As you've learned for yourself, this is not the case. Meanwhile, I can't be too far off base, because the tech support people at PE tell me that when people call them for a description of the EBT technology, they send them to my website. Nonetheless, I find myself continually working on that page, and hope someday to end up with a more concise and easily understood description of the device and what it does.

The one issue you still seem to have a hard time grasping is how the EBT results in extended burn times. Let me take another whack at it for you.

Say you're a manufacturer, and want to come out with a Big Dog; a non-catalytic stove that is capable of 90,000+ btu output and can heat up to 3,000 sq.ft. In order to heat that large an area, your stove is going to have to accomodate large loads of wood and maintain surface temps in the 700+ range for a good portion of each burn cycle.

The problem is, when you reload a stove that's burning at that temperature, the fresh load tends to gasify extremely quickly, and it takes a lot of extra combustion air to burn the resulting bloom of volatiles. Thus, your Big Dog isn't going to pass EPA emissions testing at low draft setting after the mandated reload.

Other manufacturers of large, high output non-catalytic stoves have "solved" the EPA test problem by taking away the low end on the draft control, so there is considerable airflow to the fire even when the draft control is adjusted as low as it can go. This technique might get the stove through testing, but causes extra air to be supplied to the fire during all stages of the burn cycle, even when it isn't needed, which has resulted in consumer complaints of short burn times for non-catalytic large-firebox models.

As it happens, the "bloom" of gasified volatiles from a fresh load on an already-hot fire raises the temperature of the stove considerably. Now, as a manufacturer, what if you could incorporate a device in your Big Dog that would sense that increased temperature level and supply extra air to the fire only during that portion of the burn? The device would open up and supply extra air until the extra volatiles were consumed, then sense the ensuing drop in temperature, and close back down. To prevent an out-of-control situation, the device would be designed to also close down should the stove approach overfire temps. This would enable you to incorporate a draft control that could be closed down to just a slit for long burn times immediately after the fresh load was kindled, and still pass EPA testing. Since your Big Dog would therefore be able to create much longer burn times than the other Big Dogs in the yard, you could justifiably refer to your device as Extended Burn Technology.

Many owners of PE stoves equipped with EBT might not need it very often, because they're not heating 3,000 sq.ft., and don't need to work their beasties very hard: they're able to heat their houses while putting along at 300-600 degree stovetop temperatures. When they add a fresh load at that temperature range, the wood gasifies much more slowly, and there's no "bloom" or resulting temperature peak high enough to actuate the EBT mechanism. Nonetheless, the mechanism remains vigilant, and will kick in when needed, as observed by the surprised jwscarab in another recent post. Meanwhile, all owners of PE's Big Dog firebox enjoy the longer burn times created by a draft control that can be turned down to a truly low setting.
 
Makes sense to me. I am one of the few who drive their stove to 800+ all the time during the -40 stuff. I have noticed the stove getting an extra boost at those temps. At first I thought it was just air leaks and I found a bad glass gasket from the factory but now I know whats going on.
 
Good information. I suspected the EBT was more for EPA testing. As always, Tom your insight and growing information about the EBT system is appreciated. EBT seems a slight misnomer. CBT (cleaner burning technology) seems a more appropriate description of what it does, or maybe ABBA (after burning boost assist) :). That's a good thing and I'm glad they have addressed the high temp range. The stove really does work well over a wide temp range and it's nice to have it able to kick butt when needed. But then, my issue has not been with getting it hot. Believe it or not, this winter in the Pac NW has been cold enough where we have packed the stove full to the brim many days and nights. The stove has been up in the 700 degree range several times. At that time we do see the afterburners kick in and push the stove towards 750. However, when burning softwood, this excitement can be short lived. The stove rarely holds that temp for long. Next year we should be burning hardwood, but that is not often available out here.

Based on the stove operation, for softwood burning, the EBT seems to be unnecessary. Even with the air control closed it still has about 1/8 of the circular 1.5" air intake open. With strong draft and high stove temps, there is still a mighty secondary burn even with the draft control fully closed. This chews through softwood like there is no tomorrow and reduces burn times down to about 6-8 hrs. max. As a test, I fashioned an aluminum foil block so that with the air control fully closed, it actually closed off the air about 95% instead of 80%. That helped increase burn times an hour or two. My take is that when you get the big dog hot, it sucks a lot of air into it, especially with a good tall stack on the stove. FWIW, my next door neighbor has been burning the same wood and regularly getting 10-12 hr burns with his Spectrum. But he has about 6' less pipe on the stove. I'd be happy with 10 hrs. but currently am not seeing stove top temps at 300 when I come down in the morning after 6-7 hrs. There are hot coals to restart the fire, but the stove is more like 150 in spite of being fully loaded the night before. Hardwood may make all the difference, but ours will need a summer of seasoning before I can try consecutive loads of it. Many folks out here never see hardwood burning in their stoves.

This morning, to see if I can reduce softwood consumption and extend burn times, I removed the test aluminum foil air-block from the stove and added the draft damper back on the flue. The damper helped with the F400, so let's see how it works with the T6. While working on the cold stove I also removed the firebrick over the EBT and carefully cleaned out all ash accumulating under the bricks. No need for more insulation there. Then, at Tom's suggestion I pulled the EBT to see how it really works. I have a commercial heat gun that I used to heat it up with and took a video of the action. It works just like Tom has illustrated on his website, but it's cool to see the real thing in action. I'll post a youtube video of this later, but right now it is sunny and 42 outside, so I am going to get outdoors and enjoy the day, maybe split up some wood.
 
Hi all! With my last recent EBT post, and now this one - it has been a HUGE amount of help understanding the thing.

I do believe that Toms website does reflect on how the EBT works. I also do believe that I am getting EBT functionality similar to Franks - under HIGH temps. It makes sence to me how the EBT will extend the burn time by allowing the primary to be closed more during the full length of the fire vs opening it up more and going to bed.

I was thinking about taking the EBT off, but I think for the time being, I am going to leave it alone. I am going to run the stove hotter and see how I like it. If it chews thru the wood too quick, I will reconsider.

The largest misunderstanding I had on the EBT, from older posts and Toms website is the temps required to get it to go thru the cycle. Maybe stovetop temps associated with each frame of the EBT display would be a good idea?? Just a thought.

It sounds like we ALL learned a lot here by digging into the EBT module in more detail and posting.

Now I need to learn how to run my T6 hotter without getting a stove full of coals!!!

p.s. - MovingOffGrid - IMO, pass on the ash tray. I dont use the cleanout shoot.
 
im just about to go work so i dont have the time.can someone reload there big dog stove when the temp is at 700 and see if the EBC is doing its job :)
 
OK, I have slept on all this, and I think I am going to removing the EBT. Here are my reasons.

First, When I get my stove to 700+ - I dont want more air. Yes I realize the more air may help burn off the gasses and the EBT will close again as it gets too hot, close on overfire (900), but I dont more air burning my load quicker. I will just put a few more polutants into the air - sorry.

Secondly when the fire dies down and it is coaling, I would like a little more air to burn off some of those coals. So if I just had the primary opened up a little more from the get go, the coals would burn down with more air at the tail end. Yes my burn time will be shorter this way, but I find excessive coals to be more of a problem than too short of burn times.

Thoughts? Have I missed something?
 
How much does ash in the firebox effect the temps of the EBT? If you have say an inch or more of ash, would it insulate the EBT from sensing when to open or close? I wonder if PE recommends a relatively clean fire box?
 
I now believe the ash does not make a difference. It is more a factor of the heat transfer around the firebox. ex: top temp minus 200 equals bottom temp. Just my thoughts.
 
PE instruction booklet recommends leaving a bed of ash.

My subsequent burns after my report earlier in this thread, at lower stovetop temps, with ash drawer in (pulled out to peer intermittently) I only saw the flap valve slightly cracked one time. Stove top temps generally less than 600.

One take home, and I realize this has been stated before by Hog and others, that I can safely fire the T6 to what I would think are extreme stove top temps (>750), and still add more wood if needed. I just need drier hardwood, as I would end up with 3 cubic feet of glowing charcoal if I kept feeding my semi-seasoned fuel.

Thanks for the video begreen. At one point I thought you were going to accidently torch your IR.

Thanks also to Tom.
 
jwscarab said:
OK, I have slept on all this, and I think I am going to removing the EBT. Here are my reasons.

First, When I get my stove to 700+ - I dont want more air. Yes I realize the more air may help burn off the gasses and the EBT will close again as it gets too hot, close on overfire (900), but I dont more air burning my load quicker. I will just put a few more polutants into the air - sorry.

Secondly when the fire dies down and it is coaling, I would like a little more air to burn off some of those coals. So if I just had the primary opened up a little more from the get go, the coals would burn down with more air at the tail end. Yes my burn time will be shorter this way, but I find excessive coals to be more of a problem than too short of burn times.

Thoughts? Have I missed something?

Not picking on ya, just kinda pointing something out.
If you read the statements you typed that I bolded above, your contradicting yourself & defeating the supposed purpose of the EBT.
Either way your getting more air in, whether the EBT does it, yet closes back off at high end temps & low end cooling end of the burn. Or leave the primary open a bit, which can lead to over fire under right conditions and still burn the wood as fast if not faster. I myself had coal problems my first year. And have found at least for me a couple reasons:
1. Wood is not dry enough, and yes many here think their wood is dry, and it is not as dry as they think. And to those testing with a moisture meter, if you don't split it and test the center, your not getting a good reading.
The bigger the splits, the wetter it can be in the center, and slower it burns. I myself don't bank so much on air causing the coaling. I can leave my stove go after burning a large load on low, not fill it the next day, and having nothing but ash, with the exception of a few small coals due to them being buried under ash and therefore insulated while under there. Which is another point, if your not cleaning the ash out, at least the powder & any clinkers out of the front every day, your going to have too much ash, also causing coal problems.
2. I was impatient the first year, not letting the colas burn off and constantly stuffing more splits in wanting to see the fire. For my Summit, I load 3x per day, every 8 hours, in milder weather 32+, sometimes longer durations,
in Single digits especially below 0 with high winds, I may load a couple splits in between here & there, if the wood is not oak or a harder wood and the load burns a tad faster due to the colder temps, draft & wind.
I don't care what stove anyone has, 90% of the coaling problems is less than desired wood dryness, and usually first year learning curve & impatience.
I have never pulled coals out of the stove in the last 2 heating seasons, with the exception of a few small ones near the front if mixed in with the ash.
I don't know how long you have had the stove, but if its first year & learning curve going on, I'd be a lil more patient and learn the stove. Then next year, if you still have problems, you can always pull the EBT off.
Of course one persons situation is different from another's. So find what works for you and go with it. If that means taking off the EBT, then so be it.
I merely caution on leaving any primary air open while away at work or sleeping. My Summit will peg the thermo with any air other than the amount the is delivered at the totally low setting.
I needed a door adjustment when I first got it, and until I adjusted the small leak in the door, it pegged the thermo. You might never have this problem, but its a good idea to test and keep an eye on until you understand how your stove performs at different settings.
 
Agreed, a bed of ash seems to work fine and doesn't appear to be a big influence on the EBT. The EBT reacts more to the mass of the stove body warming up. jws has it about right. When I read 500 on the stovetop with the stove warming up, the bottom area near the EBT reads about 300. If the stovetop is staying under 650, the EBT is probably engaging very little if at all.
 
The only problem with the EBT is that it is marketed as one thing but, as Frank has exposed, actually does another. Noone is arguing that it doesn't work as designed. It's a clever, cost-effective solution.

thechimneysweep said:
Meanwhile, all owners of PE's Big Dog firebox enjoy the longer burn times created by a draft control that can be turned down to a truly low setting.

It's easy to remove the lower limit on most draft controls. Took all of two minutes on my Quad once I located it.
 
Yesterday an old college buddy, a literate type who is now an engineer, stopped by the shop to say Hi, and made the mistake of asking me what's new.

EBT, and trying to describe it to people, says I.

Which fishes him into asking, EBT? What's that?

So I show the device to him on a display model Summit and explain its function to him as best I can, until his eyes sort of glaze over and he says, Ah. Got it.

OK, I say, now read this web page and tell me if it doesn't do a good job of describing exactly what the EBT does.

He studies the page for quite awhile, then looks up and says; It does not.

After the resulting mandatory exchange of derogatory comments about each other's intelligence, he fetches a bottle of single malt scotch out of his van and sits down for a couple of hours while we edit the page, paragraph by paragraph, even changing some of the diagrams and their labels.

When we're done, I have to admit it reads much better. If anybody's interested, you can check out the latest version at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm. If you find that it is still unclear, try knocking back a couple of scotches first.
 
Much better Tom. Looks like single-malt will be a future requirement for documentation. Send the tab to PE. :)

One thing I am noticing is that for a stove made in the PacNW, it is really optimized for east coast hardwood. With softwood one has to work hard to have a sustained burn at over 700. Believe me, I've tried almost daily. Right now the stove is chock full of softmaple and it's a beautiful blazing show of blue-orange flames, with great secondary combustion, but the stove top is at 675. The only way I can get it up to 700+ is to open up the air which is wasteful and inefficient.

Essentially the EBT appears to be an EPA afterburner. From what I can see, with softwood burning, it does little to extend the burn.
 
OK, I had a very strong burn with a full load of soft maple going that wouldn't get over 675. Throwing caution to the wind I opened her up and put a layer of madrona 3" round (limb wood) on top of the blazing soft-maple bed. (Kids, don't do this at home!) Voila, 30 min later, I was running at 725. It lasted all of 25 minutes. Boy am I looking forward to when our hardwood stash is fully seasoned.
 
Essentially the EBT appears to be an EPA afterburner. From what I can see, with softwood burning, it does little to extend the burn.

BeGreen, don't lose sight of the fact that, without the EBT mechanism to get your firebox thru EPA testing, PE would have had to take away your low draft control setting. Burn a load at dead low, then another at 1/2 open, and you'll see how the presence of the EBT is giving you a longer burn, even if it doesn't actuate.
 
Hi,

First thanks to BGreen (was great watching the clip) and to the Chimn..Sweep. and for all your good infos.

Since yesterday I monitor my EBT on my August T6 stove. Got top temps up to 750 for few hours with a lot of secondary pooping from th baffle holes. Then just let it cool while monitoring it constantly.

I NEVER, EVER see the EBT open through the cycle. i guess I will have to open up the thing.

Any suggestion on what tools you need I can see two screws with tight space for a screwdriver and a gasket that probably will need to be changed after the removal??

Again many thanks.

PS: I had a leak from the top door gasket solved it by adjusting the door latch (give a little kick with a hammer)
 
After reading the EBT patent several times I have a few observations:

There is a stop which prevents the EBT flap from opening past a certain point. This means that the EBT arm which opens and closes the flap probably does not rotate past the horizontal direction. Once EBT does open, it does so only once during the burn cycle and does not fluctuate back and forth to promote secondary combustion. The patent clearly states that when the stove is cooling the arm must travel a long distance before it could contact the flap (ie. its not meant to contact the flap again). The arm rotates, opens the flap..... and as the temps start to fall it rotates in the reverse direction allowing the flap to close.

There is an adjustment screw on the EBT unit allowing the user to set the temperature sensitivity.
 
Frank, Pardon moi!, I stand corrected about the PE nationality. That so many perceive a cat as so complex, too much work and money, long waiting periods to light off etc always makes me chuckle. Most of the time I disengage the cat, open the air, load, wait 4-5 mins, reengage the cat, adjust primary air and go. That is two lever movements more than your PE but come on now, that's only two lever movements more. How hard is that? The cat lets my little 1.5 cubic firebox burn cleanly and still have coals 12 to 14 hours later, (well it is soapstone too) perfect for the not so cold weather. I certainly agree that a cat does not somehow squeeze "magic" btus out of a firebox of wood as some might have you believe but it does allow you to regulate a long slow burn very cleanly. Any whoo, that debate is like clutch vs automatic. Tom, I'm gonna pour a bit of single malt myself and read your description in the spirits it was intended. Actually may need to do that just to follow this whole thread! Cat's too much trouble...mumble, some people, mumble, mumble jeesh! :coolmad:
 
Interesting to someone with a booming 35 to 40 foot tall chimney that was overdrafting an older VC insert to such a degree that I discobobulated that thing and plugged them by about 1/2 to 2/3 the original size... took a couple revisions, but I finally got it controllable and able to provide good heat.

So far as extending burn time by adding more air...

Depends where the additional air is added... if it's "overfire" air it's going to burn hotter, because of the additional combustion but won't affect overall burn time negatively because it's not going into the fuel charge. It's burning off the volatiles in the smoke at the top of the unit.

Sounds not only feasible, but like something they'd want to send a patent application in on ASAP. Automatic airflow adjustment to cut down on emissions and creosote formation. When the burn has "matured", it closed down to extend the time the fuel load will last.

Might examine this more later in the spring and early summer. It's time for the old VC insert to get it's "routine maintenance"... take it apart and put it back together cleaned with new gaskets and caulking... to my knowledge it's been close to ten years on this one and it should be done more often apparently. Got a small hot spot developing on the right hand side.

Do they make that technology in an insert?
 
Hogwildz said:
What I find interesting is the tests seen so far, There is not much of a steady temp at any time.
I have seen my Summit cruise at 650, 700 for a few hours. Course thats with oak & hardwood
That would be true in my cat soapstone stove too. Steady high stove top temps with oak, hickory, vs much more flucuation with hemlock pine, poplar.
 
BeGreen said:
OK, I spent a little time getting the video ready. It's sped up 4X so you don't fall asleep. Here's a link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1mxVQ3weZc
BG, great video. You have to love the simplicity of the engineering that allows shut off of extra air at both high temps and low temps. Very cool.
 
OK, OK, I may change my mind alot I admit. But due to Hogz, BG and Tom, yes I will leave my EBT on the stove for now. I agree I am early in using the stove (just started using it on 12/31/08. I need to be patient and get to know it better before I consider these types of changes!

And thanks HogZ for your input on the coaling - which I am fighting. And yes, I do use huge splits. I will reread and try some of these sugestions. I also need to biuld a wood shed maybe this summer for ultimate dryness. Right now I have roofing tin nailed on the tops of the rows - sides open. And some donated wood. Yes I use a moisture meter, and it lights up right away, no hissing, but I do need to split a large split and recheck!
 
Once you understand the stove and your burning habits are in tune with the stove. If you still want to take the EBT off, I say go for it.
My Summit insert runs great, and in my situation, I leave it as is.
Another note on coaling. If you have more coals than you care to have, you can also rest the bottom splits of the new load on the top of the boost manifold. This is what I do on rare occasion of more coals than I can to have.
What this does is let the boost air burn off the coals under the new load. Works very well for me. The only drawback is the glass gets fogged up quicker.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.