so you have a wood boiler, what about the gas one??

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88rxn/a

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Feb 12, 2008
145
northeast PA
im thinking in a different direction at the moment. maybe i should buy a EFFICIENT natural gas boiler as a primary (for now) and use this as a back up when i purchase the EKO.
so my question is, how efficient are they? im looking for pretty much a "list" from the best, to the worst of efficiency.
a friend at work was saying they have some out there that can use CPVC as an exhaust!?!? is this true?
if im in the wrong section, sorry!
 
The most efficient kind of boiler currently on the market is would be a modulating/condensing boiler (mod-con). The condensing part is what uses the CPVC for exhaust. They're very efficient and pretty expensive. I doubt you'd recoup the difference between a cheap gas boiler and a mod-con by using only for a season or two and then as a backup.

BTW, I'm enjoying watching the EKO fund grow!
 
As a builder I have installed a bunch of the NTI Trinity boilers on different projects. They are a direct vent (PVC), wall-mounted, condensing boiler. They are European and seem to be reliable, but they have only been around for 5 or 6 years, so we'll see. The nice thing is that they are just a little bigger than a milk crate and mount on the wall, so they don't take up any space in the boiler room. I'm not sure of their efficiency rating, but it's pretty high.
 
I have a Takagi condensing wall mount boiler. It is now 9 years old, never touched it. First 7 years it was used to heat domestic hot water, now it is hooked up as backup for wood/coal boiler and solar hot water. 180,000 Btu, 87% efficiency. Designed for this use. You can buy a new one for about $1000.00., maybe less. Some of the boilers I priced out were $5000.00. I won't live long enough, when used as backup, to pay the difference. Also I could find nothing except praise for Takagi. My wholesaler switched to a different make about 3 years ago, now has switched back. They told me some of the boilers are rated as high as 98%, but unreliable and extremely, I mean extremely expensive to repair.

Good Luck
 
We have installed Burnham, Crown, and Weil Mclain mod cons. the NTI is similar to these designs, and yes they vent with either pvc, or a concentric plastic/ metal chimney. very slick.
They are expensive to buy, and install, and require maintenance. The efficiency is generally around 90 % when not condensing, 95% or slightly higher in condensing mode.
As a backup boiler I would opt for a conventional CI oil or gas boiler rated at 86% which I could install complete for about 1/3 the cost of a mod con.
For the little bit you'll use it, you'll be way ahead in the long run.
The Flash water heaters have a lower eff. rating, but are much cheaper to buy, and install. Again- if you're not planning on using it a lot then it doesn't mean as much to have the best available efficiency.
 
Reggie Dunlap said:
As a builder I have installed a bunch of the NTI Trinity boilers on different projects. They are European and seem to be reliable, I'm not sure of their efficiency rating, but it's pretty high.
Click to expand...

NTI Trinity boilers are from Canada i think. They run low 90's for efficency and can easily be converted for LPG. They have a combi model that you can use for heat and hot water also. I've installed about a dozen of them and they have been reliable so far.
 
thanks for the help guys!
the "fund" is nice.who would of thought Ebay could come to good use instead of always buying.....
here is my thought:
im currently "finishing up" my upstairs baseboard, havent even done the heat load calc. for down stairs or basement yet. im concerned that i wont have it finished by next winter. let alone get the wood i need early spring, cut and split so it may dry and then finish out by installing the EKO boiler. i dont want another winter of wearing extra clothes in the house, COLD feet and all the fun stuff. as much as i work, id like a nice efficient gas boiler to use "in case" im not around.
i am however, finding GAS boilers in the 95% range of efficiency....alot higher than i thought!
so far i found these boiler:
Peerless PureFire Boiler: 95.85%
Laars Mascot-Baxi Boiler: 96%
Weil McLain Ultra: 93%
Viessmann Vitodens: 95.1 %


i really appreciate you guys helping with the "pay back" perspective, but if the house ever went on the market...its really,really hard to get what its worth if things arent really up to par. people like to see the energy star on products as do i.

so has anyone dealt with any of those types? im going to research the Takagi .
 
Are you planning on using your existing oil boiler chimney for the new EKO? Is that why your thinking PVC vented gas boiler? If not I would tend to agree with Chris S on a traditional boiler installation as a backup.
Also If your using baseboard heat your not going to see the higher efficencies of a condensing boiler because of the higher supply temps(thus higher return temps) required for baseboard.
 
Don't get a Baxi. I work for a company that has put in quite a few of them and they are a nightmare. Lots of problems with all the O-Rings inside it needing to be replaced a couple times a year. WeilMclain is a very nice unit and so is the Viesman. Peerless isnt the greatest to work on.
 
NoFossil, where could we find that same boiler for that price? I am interested in installing a gas backup and that's in my price range.
 
Tarmsolo60 said:
Are you planning on using your existing oil boiler chimney for the new EKO? Is that why your thinking PVC vented gas boiler? If not I would tend to agree with Chris S on a traditional boiler installation as a backup.
Also If your using baseboard heat your not going to see the higher efficencies of a condensing boiler because of the higher supply temps(thus higher return temps) required for baseboard.
Click to expand...

the boiler will be in a outside shed already up. i just thought that since you can use PVC for the exhaust that almost NO heat is wasted efficiency wise....
i have no existing oil boiler at the moment. just a really,really old "stove" that heats the basement and a couple electric baseboard heaters in various rooms. this is why im debating to go this way first.
as for the higher temps, i did the heat loss calc. using 140F degree water at -20 outside to size the baseboard for each room. so with the lower water temps, wouldnt i be good to go?
 
88rxn/a said:
Tarmsolo60 said:
Are you planning on using your existing oil boiler chimney for the new EKO? Is that why your thinking PVC vented gas boiler? If not I would tend to agree with Chris S on a traditional boiler installation as a backup.
Also If your using baseboard heat your not going to see the higher efficencies of a condensing boiler because of the higher supply temps(thus higher return temps) required for baseboard.
Click to expand...

the boiler will be in a outside shed already up. i just thought that since you can use PVC for the exhaust that almost NO heat is wasted efficiency wise....
i have no existing oil boiler at the moment. just a really,really old "stove" that heats the basement and a couple electric baseboard heaters in various rooms. this is why im debating to go this way first.
as for the higher temps, i did the heat loss calc. using 140F degree water at -20 outside to size the baseboard for each room. so with the lower water temps, wouldnt i be good to go?
Click to expand...

the 140 baseboard temp would be great mod/con, BTU output in baseboards is pretty low at 140. As long as your setting it up that way it should work. I just meant that if your heat load required 180 like a lot of existing baseboard installations you would lose the condensing "bonus" of the Mod/con.

Just don't run a CI boiler at 140 or you could ruin the boiler with low return temp condensing inside the boiler.

I guess my dream setup in yor situation would be:
-baseboard installed to handle the load at 140
-gasifier of your favorite flavor with at least 16 hour storage(burning the remainder of the day)
-NTI trinity combi for backup and summer hot water

How important the efficency of the back up is has a lot to do with how much you will run it. If your going to use 100 gallons of fuel a year through it you'll have a hard time making the extra money back in fuel savings, however it might help if resale is important.
 
Do you have codes in your area? Often times heating boilers are required to have ASME tags welding on them. Not all of the tankless water heaters will pass as hesting appliances. Check with the AHJ before you get a surprise.

ttpically a boiler designed for heating will have additional safety devices than a water heater.

For mod con boilers my favorites are the Lochinvar Knight, HTP Contenders

hr
 
i see what your saying...i set up the heatload this low (140) for a "just in case" which in a way, i lucked out right~!
maybe i should talk to my local plumbing stores and contractors for the list i made to see what they can work on and the problems they have with them.....
an ex-HVAC/buddy was bragging up the munchkin the other day....
decisions, decision!!
 
Medman said:
NoFossil, where could we find that same boiler for that price? I am interested in installing a gas backup and that's in my price range.
Click to expand...

I don't remember the specific supplier. There were a few online in that range, and at least one with free shipping. I got the TK-jr model.
 
88rxn/a

I just replaced my oil boiler with a Eko 25 and a Munchkin Contender Propane boiler for backup, super efficient wall mount unit. Made in the USA, easy to install, used it for 4 weeks when I took the Oil boiler offline and got the Eko online. It is a great unit, very happy with it.
 
thanks, a friend mentioned the munchkin boiler...i think my best bet is to call up and see which units they are familiar with working on in this area....ill see what they say and report back...
 
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