Chimney Issues - Soot - Black on side of my house...

LJ4174 · Feb 18, 2009

Here's what I'm talking about:

I'm sure from the pictures you can see what my issue is...

Here's a few more shots of chimney and it's relation to the side of my house:

Now, here's the storey that goes along with these pictures. I put my stove in and started burning it about the week before Thanksgiving, so been burning it now and heating my house with it the last say 3 months. Right away the blackness/soot on the side of my house was happening and some of my siding was melting, very slightly. Anyway, that's when I went and put the 45's on the end there. When I asked of clearances when I bought the stove and chimney, they told me there were none, other than keeping the pipe at least 3" from any combustables...

So have been running it like that and really didn't think much of it, just figured I'd have to clean the side of my house every Spring, but 3 of my neighbors have pellet stoves and they don't have anything like this, not even a spec on the side of their houses. Then, we had a wind storm and one morning I had to pick up a piece of flashing that blew off my house and I noticed an actual hot ember (a spark) come out of the chimney. I watched it a while longer and another one came out. I didn't think that was normal so I called my dealer. Sent him the pictures included in this post. He verified a few things on my thermostat settings and everything appeared to be fine. Asked me about my cleaning schedule and all, which I clean this thoroghly once a week according to the owners manual.

My cap there is 9"-10" away from my house. Even though I bought the chimney from the same place I bought the stove and told them how I was installing it. Now they are telling me it needs to be 2 feet from the side of my house for proper air flow. Does this make any sense? I can't get my thoughts around that making any sense, however I'm new to this, so I don't know. If this is the case, shouldn't a horizontal vent have to also stick out 2' then???

They also said my stove is either not getting enough air or using/burning too many pellets...

So anyway, the tech is supposed to come out tomorrow, but told me if he comes out and it isn't a warrenty issue, that he will bill me. Does this seem fair? Considering they sold me the chimney configuration in the first place???

My stove is a Quadrafire Mount Vernon...

Any thoughts, help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks...

LJ

namz111 · Feb 18, 2009

Well I am no expert here and i am really new to this..but first off that outlet is way way to close to the side of the house I do not know what the dealer was thinking, but why would you even install it like that? Also seems to me that the wind blows to that side so that even makes it twice as bad, if in fact the wind does blow to that side of the house the only fix is to go up over the roof line, if it does not just swivel that vent cap horizontal that should fix 75% of the problem. also seems like the feed rate is much to high and that is the other problem if your keeping the stove clean that much black soot is too much fuel not enough air. Maybe I am wrong and if I am somebody please tell me.

Lorne41 · Feb 18, 2009

Deffy said:
no matter how you tweak your stove settings, with that chimney setup, thats going to happen to your siding. if that was mine i'd have gone out the side of that little room (mud room?)near the roof then up a bit with a 90 degree then put the cap on. this way there is some room for the smoke to dissipate before it gets near the siding.

now that its already through the roof, might as well ditch the 45'sand go straight up above the main roof line, might be a bit costly with all that pipe, but once its done, its done. and its cheaper than new siding every year.

also might want to switch to 4" for the rest of the run.

I agree with Deffy, you've have a bad installation of the vent pipe causing the damage to your house. According to the Simpson Duravent website that vent cap is supposed to be used above the roof line and not below. You also have way too much smoke coming out and soot build-up on the vent cap so you may have some bad pellets or your stove settings are not correct. You might consider a horizontal vent cap that Duravent makes also, www.pelletking.com has them listed. Link below:

http://www.pelletking.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=sdv-3086

There are some other members on this forum that can provide you with some additional help, many are professional stove techs. or stove dealers. Good Luck!

charles u farley · Feb 18, 2009

Your manual states 12" minimum clearance from any combustible wall and not to vent anywhere soot or flue gas could stain the building... As namz111 said a horizontal termination rather than a drip cap would help a lot in that location. IMHO there's no way you dealer can do anything for you if this was a self install, even if you tried to explain our intended layout beforehand. It's just not a good location for a vent regardless of the stove's adjustments and burn cleanliness.

By the looks of it you might need just another 12-15 feet of pipe and a couple of wall bands to get above the main roof line. Use the 45's to offset past the overhang or a thimble and flashing to go through it. Going past the roof is the only way to completely eliminate the staining.

Good luck.

LJ4174 · Feb 18, 2009

Well I am no expert here and i am really new to this..but first off that outlet is way way to close to the side of the house I do not know what the dealer was thinking, but why would you even install it like that? Also seems to me that the wind blows to that side so that even makes it twice as bad, if in fact the wind does blow to that side of the house the only fix is to go up over the roof line, if it does not just swivel that vent cap horizontal that should fix 75% of the problem. also seems like the feed rate is much to high and that is the other problem if your keeping the stove clean that much black soot is too much fuel not enough air. Maybe I am wrong and if I am somebody please tell me.

Why would I install it like that??? Well, because the dealer said it was OK and designed the vent/chimney for me. Even during the install I had to run in because I needed additional peices. I told them how far it was going to be from the house and again, the looked through their documentation and said it shouldn't matter. When I first put this on, it was only 2"-3" from my siding, and even at that point they said it shouldn't matter.

This is part of my issue... On one hand they are telling me my stove isn't getting enough air (regardless of the blackness on the side of my house) I can't see how the location of the cap/vent is preventing the stove from getting enough air. I can't see how there is a vacuum of sorts behind that 1/8th of the cap, that if I move this out it's going to solve the issue.

The other thing here, is that they said it might be getting too much feul (pellets) as you mentioned but how can you rule out one or the other??? Again, regarless of the location of the vent, I can't see that preventing air to the stove... ????

I agree with Deffy, you've have a bad installation of the vent pipe causing the damage to your house. According to the Simpson Duravent website that vent cap is supposed to be used above the roof line and not below. You also have way too much smoke coming out and soot build-up on the vent cap so you may have some bad pellets or your stove settings are not correct. You might consider a horizontal vent cap that Duravent makes also, www.pelletking.com has them listed. Link below:

http://www.pelletking.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=sdv-3086

There are some other members on this forum that can provide you with some additional help, many are professional stove techs. or stove dealers. Good Luck!

I'm sure my pellets are OK, and yeah, seems that cap should be used above the roof line, however again, this is what the dealer sold me. This was a brand new installation, I could have run the vent horizontally... I still don't understand though, how a horizontal vent gets more air flow? And wouldn't cause this same issue? To me, when I look at all my neighbors installations, it seems the horizontal vents, through the wall, brings everything even closer to the siding or side of the house???

Your manual states 12" minimum clearance from any combustible wall and not to vent anywhere soot or flue gas could stain the building... As namz111 said a horizontal termination rather than a drip cap would help a lot in that location. IMHO there's no way you dealer can do anything for you if this was a self install, even if you tried to explain our intended layout beforehand. It's just not a good location for a vent regardless of the stove's adjustments and burn cleanliness.

By the looks of it you might need just another 12-15 feet of pipe and a couple of wall bands to get above the main roof line. Use the 45's to offset past the overhang or a thimble and flashing to go through it. Going past the roof is the only way to completely eliminate the staining.

Good luck.

What manual states 12" of clearance? From my stove? Perhaps I didn't see that... Hmmmm...

No, for me to go above the roof line, I'd probably need a good 25'-30' - My roof has a real steep pitch on it. There in lies an issue there because when you start going that high, you then need to have a larger vent.

I completely disagree though with your dealer comment, and this is what my issue here is. This was a brand new install. I could have run that vent pipe however I wanted, and the dealer suggested this set up. I took drawings, measurements and all in and for them to recommend this, then say that's my issue, that gets under my skin in a bad way... If my location should have had a horizontal vent, then they should have told me that, and again, not recommend this setup. After all, that's part of the whole stove thing isn't it and what I'm paying the retail price for?? They are supposed to be the experts and you rely on them for this stuff and they should know what they are selling...

jtp10181 · Feb 18, 2009

Do you have outside air hooked up?

Have you cleaned out the exhaust pit at all? Behind the baffle at the bottom there is a pit (hard to get into) that must be cleaned regularly to keep the exhaust flow going well. Also yank the comb blower off and clean that area very well. Probably would not hurt to yank the pot out and give that a good cleaning also.

Have you noticed on start-up does it smoke a lot before lighting? With that AE unit running well it should smoke very little before it lights. I had one that was smoking for 30 seconds and his cap was jet black, if the wind normally blew on his house his siding probably would have looked the same. After a full checkup and cleaning the smoke on start-up stopped. We think it was from the outside air being hooked up (we disconnected it).

I agree with others that I would never have installed the vent like that. Right out the back of that doghouse would be been a better idea and if that was not an option or undesired because the vent would stick out I would have suggested going up the side of the house to above the roof line.

LJ4174 · Feb 18, 2009

jtp10181 said:
Do you have outside air hooked up?

Have you cleaned out the exhaust pit at all? Behind the baffle at the bottom there is a pit (hard to get into) that must be cleaned regularly to keep the exhaust flow going well. Also yank the comb blower off and clean that area very well. Probably would not hurt to yank the pot out and give that a good cleaning also.

Have you noticed on start-up does it smoke a lot before lighting? With that AE unit running well it should smoke very little before it lights. I had one that was smoking for 30 seconds and his cap was jet black, if the wind normally blew on his house his siding probably would have looked the same. After a full checkup and cleaning the smoke on start-up stopped. We think it was from the outside air being hooked up (we disconnected it).

I agree with others that I would never have installed the vent like that. Right out the back of that doghouse would be been a better idea and if that was not an option or undesired because the vent would stick out I would have suggested going up the side of the house to above the roof line.

Nope, no outside air... Uh, with the smoke, no, I don't really recall seeing any smoke at all when it lights, here are there I notice some, but it's not like 30 seconds or anything like that...

Yeah, I clean the pits out as good as I can with my vacuum, although my next cleaning I'm going to pay more attention to that. Also, this blackness happened within the 1st week of me burning the stove, I've just left it go because I thought it was just the way it was...

Again, I only installed the vent like that because the dealer said it was OK. I could have easily went out the back of the doghouse...

How will a horizontal cap keep this from happening? Anyone know? It's still as close to the siding/house?

j00fek · Feb 18, 2009

CZARCAR said:
if it went out the sidewall & pointed down 45* , it would shoot away from the house & might help some. definite easier wall & pipe to clean
wonder if u can secure a piece of singlewall to the current cap so that it blocked 1/2 of the cap on the siding side? couple of large ringclamps might secure the 1/2 pipe but would it affect the draft/exhaust. i have seen caps which exhaust in 1 direction & away from house.

this is how it should have been installed in the first place, i would call your installer and rip him a new one (but thats what i would do)

then you will have to fix it because the installer will not fix it for free im sure.

i think the best way to remedy this is take it out of that small roof and vent it out one of the sides with a cap like ... http://img.nextag.com/image/SIMPSON-DURAVENT-33085-PIPE/0/000/005/127/889/512788933.jpg

i have this type vent setup going straight out 2ft from the side of my house and just have a small amount of ash that will come off with the power washer this spring

just my .02

orangecrushcj7 · Feb 18, 2009

by "going above the roofline" we mean above the roof eave. Well, I do anyways. Code states for regular chimneys to terminate 2' above any roof surface within 10'. This is to prevent wind changes from the roof surface from affecting the draft, and cumbustible clearances. So what this means is where the chimney terminates vertically, draw an imaginary level line towards the roof surface. That termination point needs to be 10' away horizontally. it does not have to be higher than the ridge. But that is really overkill on a power vented appliance. If you just get it above the eave, you will no longer have sooting on the siding, because the soot will be above it.

LJ4174 · Feb 18, 2009

CZARCAR said:
if it went out the sidewall & pointed down 45* , it would shoot away from the house & might help some. definite easier wall & pipe to clean
wonder if u can secure a piece of singlewall to the current cap so that it blocked 1/2 of the cap on the siding side? couple of large ringclamps might secure the 1/2 pipe but would it affect the draft/exhaust. i have seen caps which exhaust in 1 direction & away from house.

That would make my life easier. I'm also thinking of maybe putting a 2' section between the 45's, however I would have liked to do this right in the first place. I guess that's where I'm confused, they are sorta saying the stove isn't getting enough air, I don't see how any of this, with relation to the horizontal vent, makes any sense...

j00fek said:
CZARCAR said:

if it went out the sidewall & pointed down 45* , it would shoot away from the house & might help some. definite easier wall & pipe to clean
wonder if u can secure a piece of singlewall to the current cap so that it blocked 1/2 of the cap on the siding side? couple of large ringclamps might secure the 1/2 pipe but would it affect the draft/exhaust. i have seen caps which exhaust in 1 direction & away from house.

Click to expand...

this is how it should have been installed in the first place, i would call your installer and rip him a new one (but thats what i would do)

then you will have to fix it because the installer will not fix it for free im sure.

i think the best way to remedy this is take it out of that small roof and vent it out one of the sides with a cap like ... http://img.nextag.com/image/SIMPSON-DURAVENT-33085-PIPE/0/000/005/127/889/512788933.jpg

i have this type vent setup going straight out 2ft from the side of my house and just have a small amount of ash that will come off with the power washer this spring

just my .02

Man, I'd have to rip myself a new one then...

Although, again, not to repeat myself, but it's what the dealer said would be OK... I'm thinking I might have to do this because going up over the eave of my main roof isn't really an option. Although, I see this being a complete pain too because now I have my stone work and all to tend to on the inside of my house and a hole cut in this roof for this installation that I'd now have to patch or re-do... Not to mention probably the $100 of pipe that I don't need, and probably another $100 of pipe that I'll have to buy...

Orange Crush CJ-7 said:
by "going above the roofline" we mean above the roof eave. Well, I do anyways. Code states for regular chimneys to terminate 2' above any roof surface within 10'. This is to prevent wind changes from the roof surface from affecting the draft, and cumbustible clearances. So what this means is where the chimney terminates vertically, draw an imaginary level line towards the roof surface. That termination point needs to be 10' away horizontally. it does not have to be higher than the ridge. But that is really overkill on a power vented appliance. If you just get it above the eave, you will no longer have sooting on the siding, because the soot will be above it.

Yeah, I was going to put a real fire place in and that's what they were going to do, but I "thought" these stoves didn't need all that? My eave is too high to do this...

Lorne41 · Feb 18, 2009

The photo below is the vent set-up on the side of my house, you can see the DuraVent horizontal vent cap I installed( I also installed an additional " T " with cleanout to make cleaning easier). I have white vinyl siding and as you can see it's clean with no soot staining. The horizontal vent cap directs the hot exhaust fumes away from your siding and helps eliminate problems like yours. I also have an OAK ( Outside Air Kit) kit installed, it gives your pellet stove more air for easier and cleaner combustion and eliminates " negative air " inside your house.The other members above are saying your stove isn't getting enough air into it, not the vent itself. Heavy sooting usually indicates not enough air for proper combustion inside the stove or maybe bad pellets. Your stove might not be getting enough air for proper combustion if you don't have an OAK installed or it might your stove adjustments. You might want to consider adding the horizontal vent cap to your hook-up and an OAK kit, it would be the least expensive way to solve your immediate problems along with a good cleaning and adjusting your stove as the other forum members recommend above. You can modify it later after the weather warms up.
I hope this helps.

Mark_ms · Feb 18, 2009

http://www.quadrafire.com/downloads/installManuals/man_mtvernoninsertae.pdf

I may be a little off base here but the manual says "12 inch clearance from combustible wall" I take it to mean not necessarily being the termation point. It further states that flue should terminate above roof line by 12 inches. I take that to mean the "highest" point.

....and we all know that ALL dealers are ALL Knowing in installation procedures..... :bug:

Mark_ms

pkitfox · Feb 18, 2009

Take the 45 the vertical cap is attached to and rotate it 180 degrees. Install a new horizonal termination cap. You may want to extend the pipe 1' higher (not sure by the pictures how high you are from the roof, probably OK but a 1' piece of pipe will not hurt). If you do extend with a 1' piece of pipe, a wall strap would not be a bad idea.

It is normal to get some smoke on start-up, but when running you should have no visible smoke. If your stove and vent are clean, and the "burn" is right, you will minimize the smoke on the house problem. Keeping starting and stopping of you pellet stove to a minimum will be advantageous to the life of stove components, and help with the smoke on the house problem. Your situation does not look difficult, or expensive to correct.

We have only burned about 30 bags of pellets, but I cannot detect any sign of smoke damage on the siding of our house.

The pipe and the stove pictures were taken at the same time (well, within a minute).

kinsmanstoves · Feb 18, 2009

What is the exhaust consist of? Mention every piece.
What kind of stove do you have? (edit Mt. Vernon)
Very bad install but can be corrected before a fire starts.

Eric

ootski · Feb 18, 2009

Hopefully most if not all will come off with power washer (gas) and a cleaner / solvent like simple green or another detergent. I had good luck with this combo, in fact a heavy driving rain removed most of mine the first time. Let us know

ohbix · Feb 18, 2009

Warning: Rookie: only on year two of burning. The venting manuals which I've read have all stated that, for horizontal venting, if the cap opening is less than 3 ft above ground,then one must lay down rock or some other fireproof layer. ie your cap is very close to meltable/burnable vinyl siding - danger Will Robinson? I have horizontal venting, but initially had a cap design similar to yours which passes exhaust around the perimeter. Siding looked like yours. Replaced cap w/ a horizontal piece of pipe and elbow on end. After 4 tons, still no staining. As others have suggested, short term you could remove the cap, rotate the second elbow, then attach a horizontal piece of pipe to it, then a galvanized elbow (elbow acts as the cap). Be sure that the open end is at least 3 ft from combustibles. If it works, then get a term cap which looks like an elongate elbow w/ a screen over the open end. This directs the exhaust farther from the house than the more downward caps. If you would like a picture, let me know and I'll attempt to post one.

TomPajak · Feb 18, 2009

LJ4174 said:
jtp10181 said:

Do you have outside air hooked up?

Have you cleaned out the exhaust pit at all? Behind the baffle at the bottom there is a pit (hard to get into) that must be cleaned regularly to keep the exhaust flow going well. Also yank the comb blower off and clean that area very well. Probably would not hurt to yank the pot out and give that a good cleaning also.

Have you noticed on start-up does it smoke a lot before lighting? With that AE unit running well it should smoke very little before it lights. I had one that was smoking for 30 seconds and his cap was jet black, if the wind normally blew on his house his siding probably would have looked the same. After a full checkup and cleaning the smoke on start-up stopped. We think it was from the outside air being hooked up (we disconnected it).

I agree with others that I would never have installed the vent like that. Right out the back of that doghouse would be been a better idea and if that was not an option or undesired because the vent would stick out I would have suggested going up the side of the house to above the roof line.

Click to expand...

Nope, no outside air... Uh, with the smoke, no, I don't really recall seeing any smoke at all when it lights, here are there I notice some, but it's not like 30 seconds or anything like that...

Yeah, I clean the pits out as good as I can with my vacuum, although my next cleaning I'm going to pay more attention to that. Also, this blackness happened within the 1st week of me burning the stove, I've just left it go because I thought it was just the way it was...

Again, I only installed the vent like that because the dealer said it was OK. I could have easily went out the back of the doghouse...

How will a horizontal cap keep this from happening? Anyone know? It's still as close to the siding/house?

GET ANOTHER DEALER!!

hey guys..if he were to go horizontal right from the roof exit and out maybe 2-3 feet would that work?

trbinrat · Feb 18, 2009

1) You said you don't have an outside air kit? If your house isn't that old and its not that drafty I recommend one. They make a world of difference. From my arm chair that looks to be your soot problem.

2) I would get rid of you dealer if he recommended that installation. In the original install 2 to 3 inches from combustibles is wrong. Even with the high efficiency of pellet stove heat still comes out of the vent.

3) I would take the advice from others on hear and go with a 90 and a horizontal cap

and last if I was you. This summer I would change that system to one of the ones already pictured here. Out the side of that dog house and up the side to a 90 to a horizontal cap.

Just my two cents. Worth the price charge!

trbinrat · Feb 19, 2009

Just one ? I didn't see in the post who installed the stove. You or a professional installer and did you have to pull a permit and if you did did the fire inspector look at the final install.

stoveguy2esw · Feb 19, 2009

from what im seeing , the stove is burning dirty , you have an airflow issue. also IMHO the installer who recommended this install?/ did they do it or just make the suggestion it be done this way? either way , its not correct and in the position you have it vented particularly if its the "windward" side of the house , you will get soot from a dirty burning stove . the cap is wrong, you shouldnt use a vertical termination cap like that against a wall only when above the roofline as it does not direct exhaust flow away from the structure. someone posted a view of a horizontal termination cap setup on the side of their house earlier , this would be a better setup. underlying though , your stove is not burning well to produce that much soot in that short a time. it looks to me liike you arent getting enough combustion air. how aggressive is the fire? is it bright yellow or more orange in color , do the flames look like they have black "tips"? is the house relatively new? newer houses develop negative pressure due to the exhaust being pulled out faster than it can leak back in. this results in a dirty burn in a lot of cases, i'd look to install an OAK if you do not have one already to break the house seal and give the unit more air to allow for a cleaner burn. but above all else you NEED TO correct that flue setup to get proper clearance and direction of flue gasses away from the house before you do more damage to the structure!

Scoop · Feb 19, 2009

or burn it down

jtp10181 · Feb 19, 2009

Ok.... to fix the obvious venting problem I would suggest this for an easy fix. By a wall strap, 2 x 12", a 90 elbow and a horizontal cap. Take the 45 elbows off and toss them (or use them as the 90). Add 12" of height to get away from the little roof. Add the wall strap at this point. Use the 90 to kick away from the house. Another 12" for distance and then the cap.

Now for the sooty burn. I just got back from cleaning one of those AE unit that was burning nasty. Man I am tired and dirty. Spent two hours there replacing the board and doing some upgrades. First I need to know the MFG date of your stove, please check the sticker on the back across the bottom the date should be punched out of the foil. I worked with a Quad field engineer a few weeks ago on an AE unit so I have a few tricks up my sleeve but first I want to know what you have exactly.

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