holy crap has this dude lost it?

jdemaris, there is no need of, "...have to do a complete shut-down to clean a chimney mid-winter."

We have never had to do a shut-down to clean our chimney. Ah yes, we do if cleaning the stove. However, that gets done once per year....after the burning season.

Frankly, it seems to me even the recommendation of a hot fire periodically to curb creosote buildup is not such a great idea, as it may suggest the practice is perfectly safe.

Not all stoves burn (or are burned) cleanly. In many cases, some (occasionally substantial) creosote formation is inevitable, and encouraging anyone (especially a newcomer) to burn a 'hotter than normal' fire doesn't seem particularly well advised.

But, I may be alone in thinking so...

Peter B.

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Backwoods Savage said:

jdemaris, there is no need of, "...have to do a complete shut-down to clean a chimney mid-winter."

We have never had to do a shut-down to clean our chimney. Ah yes, we do if cleaning the stove. However, that gets done once per year....after the burning season.

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Yes, but not all are the same. Of course, with some, it's easy to run a cleaning brush down from the top, anytime. But, does not work with all.

That depends on the furnace/stove and how and where the chimney is hooked up. Some chimneys cannot be cleaned or reached from the top (outdoors) and get only be cleaned from indoors p- with the connector pipes removed.

Pepere, my father, and most of the old timers I've been around here in Maine most of my life all, "burn the thing hot at least once a day". They also made a habit of cleaning the chimney mid season and at the end of the year. One old guy has a hunting camp miles back in the woods... piece of clay sewer pipe stuck up through the roof, with a thimble on the end stuck in the stove. Been there for a hundred years, never been cleaned. "Oh, we burn it good and hot every day when we come in and use it." I shudder every time I go there... "That sewer pipe was "new" when we put it in there."

Most would not go three weeks or a month, and then decide to suddenly "burn it hot". They know better.

Peter B. said:

Frankly, it seems to me even the recommendation of a hot fire periodically to curb creosote buildup is not such a great idea, as it may suggest the practice is perfectly safe.

Not all stoves burn (or are burned) cleanly. In many cases, some (occasionally substantial) creosote formation is inevitable, and encouraging anyone (especially a newcomer) to burn a 'hotter than normal' fire doesn't seem particularly well advised.

But, I may be alone in thinking so...

Peter B.

-----

Click to expand...

Peter B. said:

Frankly, it seems to me even the recommendation of a hot fire periodically to curb creosote buildup is not such a great idea, as it may suggest the practice is perfectly safe.

Click to expand...

It IS sometimes safe when done by the right person and with the right system.

Years ago, there were many popular wood burning products made to be thrown into the old coal or wood stove, once daily, to force it to burn ultra hot. Went off like a small bomb. Some old timers even used gun power or kerosene. In reality, a handful of very dry white pine sticks, lathe, etc. will do the same.

I've still got some of those "hot fire" cannisters laying around as antiques. I suppose many a person set their house on fire with by using them, and I also suspect many uncontrolled chimny fires were prevented. Now adays, everything is generalized and tuned down for the lowest and most careless mentality. Even with that, some of the safest and best built systems still result in house fires when used by the wrong people.

When lawnmower and snowblower manufacturers have to put stickers on their products,

"DANGER. DO NOT PUT HANDS IN HERE."

I'd say that the assessment that everything is being tuned down to the lowest common denominator, which is that there are enough completely ignorant and stupid people out there that firefighters, EMT/Paramedics, doctors and physical therapists, as well as undertakers, are never going to be short of work.

"the wrong people"... Yeah, I've met some of them over the years. Mostly fire and accident scenes, and since becoming a PT, in the clinic. "Give any fool a tool, and he'll figure out a way to kill or cripple himself with it." The difference between a fool, and a non-fool who simply had an accident, is the fool is usually doing something the non-fool would never have done when it happens. Like lifting a push mower by the edge of the deck when it's running, or sticking his hand in the chute of a jammed snowblower.

"MY FINGERS" Ayuh... they're gone...

Had a patient once... was using a table saw.

"I KNEW BETTER! Cutting this piece of wood and it kicked, went to catch it and felt a 'tug' on my hand. Looked over on the sawdust pile and there's three of my fingers. Just like that. So I grabbed a rag, and drove myself over to the hospital." Nurses and doctor wanted to know where my fingers were... When I told them, they said to call my wife. She didn't even know. She hung up the phone, and when she called back about fifteen minutes later... the doctor was on the phone with her.

He said, "It's been fifteen minutes! Time is getting short on this if we're going to have any chance at reattaching them.... they what? The chickens have the fingers, and they're eating them? No, I don't think it would do any good now... we'll clean him up and close them, he'll be home in a few hours."

Apparently, the chickens assumed since he wasn't using them anymore, and threw them in the yard, they could eat them. He said he felt a little happy when he took the axe to that bunch when they stopped laying. "Eat my fingers? In the soup pot with you."

jdemaris said:

Peter B. said:

Frankly, it seems to me even the recommendation of a hot fire periodically to curb creosote buildup is not such a great idea, as it may suggest the practice is perfectly safe.

Click to expand...

It IS sometimes safe when done by the right person and with the right system.

Years ago, there were many popular wood burning products made to be thrown into the old coal or wood stove, once daily, to force it to burn ultra hot. Went off like a small bomb. Some old timers even used gun power or kerosene. In reality, a handful of very dry white pine sticks, lathe, etc. will do the same.

I've still got some of those "hot fire" cannisters laying around as antiques. I suppose many a person set their house on fire with by using them, and I also suspect many uncontrolled chimny fires were prevented. Now adays, everything is generalized and tuned down for the lowest and most careless mentality. Even with that, some of the safest and best built systems still result in house fires when used by the wrong people.

Click to expand...

Most of us spend a lot of time and energy worrying about how to NOT do what this joker did.

Ok. The thread was worth it for Leonmsft's post. Better hope you don't pee around an electric fence

I get the impression that some of these posters do not have a clue how clean a new system can be. If its a quality EPA stove and has plenty of draft with dry wood the pipe will be clean enough to go the whole winter. This is not the case with the old smoke dragons. I suspect some of our brothers here like talking about stoves but need the EPA experience to understand how far stoves have come. I am an example of an old timer 40 years burning who was shocked to learn that I had a lot to learn about wood burning. I never heard of top down burning. Being able to watch the fire shows you what you are doing wrong. My big mistake was loading the stove to much for the cold start up. I still have a couple of fishers in greenhouses and 2 cookstoves and I have put my new knowledge to good use. I find there is no comparison to a new EPA stove.
In this age of chimney brushes a person is just avoiding work by burning out a pipe. They are taking a chance that everything will act as it did the last time they did this. Stop sleep walking and embrace the brush.

This thread has had me laughing from start to finish. Visions of sub-atomic explosions inside stoves, blue flames exiting the chimney, all are dimmed by the tears in my eyes.

We have an expression in the shop, "sometimes it's easier to just pay". It nicely sums up my take on chimney cleaning. Once a year in April/thereabouts and we're good to go for another year. The sweep cleans the flues, inspects them, applies the "off-season" discount, and marvels at how clean a chimney can be when a modern stove is operated properly and good, dry wood is used for the fires.

The laughs here have more than offset the frustration of replacing the submersible pump deep in the bowels of the ground floor sewer ejector... thanks again! Pass me that beer, willya Bubba? lol.

Hey, not only old timers "burn it hot once per day". My modern EPA hearthstone's owner's manual directs me to leave the draft wide open once per day for 30-45 minutes to "burn it hot once per day". Burning it hot is not the same as intentionally starting a chimney fire though which I would never do. It's just too easy to brush the pipe.

A certain relative of mine cleans his chimney cap every year by climbing onto the roof, removing the cap, bringing it to the middle of the driveway, pouring gasoline all over it and lighting it. I think the neighbors are too scared to call the fire dept. As crazy as this sounds, he has a clean cap when it burns out.

I love the "old timers did it this way" story. That's probably why we did house raisings every year for the burned out.

Here it is from the current heritage manual.....

"

To prevent the buildup of creosote:
1. Burn the stove with the primary air control
fully open for 35 - 45 minutes daily to burn out
creosote deposits from within the stove and the
venting system.

"

Lots of opinions here....

We are running a VC encore w/cat and measure the griddle and flue gas temp. Griddle will get as hot as 750F (allowable according to the manual) and flue gas up to 1200F when starting the fire and up to about 1000F with the cat engaged. This is just into the "red" region on the flue gas thermometer. (I don't know if the "red" means anything other than it is hot.)

I cleaned the chimney on Monday because I could see some buildup on the cap. Less than a gallon of stuff after burning about 4-5 cord so far this year. 90% of the buildup was located in the top three feet of the chimney. We got about same after burning all winter last year. I think cleaning once a year would be fine - but I will probably clean mid season as well.

So after reading all this I don't know if we are burning clean or burning all the stuff up every day. Either way it keeps it clean.



Side story - My step dad would qualify has an "old timer" - burning wood all his life (80 years+) and never cleaned the chimney. For years he was using a Franklin stove and a wood burning furnace. They moved a few years ago and have a fireplace going 24/7. They have had two (at least) chimney fires at required the fire department in the last 4 years. The second one cracked the ceramic lining and cost several grand to have fixed. He still doesn't clean the chimney - adding some potato skins to the fire is all you need to do.

oilstinks said:

In about 20min the temp gauge bout 14" up read 600 and bacon was frying inside the pipe. Look out and embers were coming out the vent cap. Are mini chimny fires safe?

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600 is nothing for flue temps. I have ours over 800 at least once a month.

Mini chimney fires, deliberately set are a LOT safer then BIG chimney fires, especially the ones that occur when people are asleep, or not home.

In the 7 or 8 years we've been burning, we haven't had a chimney fire. I am going to knock on a piece of wood now.....

i think a lot of people are missing the point here. like the last few posts are saying too its not only safe but recomended by the very people that designed the stove in the first place. i figured there would be a few fire fighters on here and such that would think its a bad idea. i know lots and lots of people who feel the same way. most people arent going to let the stove burn out and cool down all afternoon so they can get on the roof in three feet of snow at 40 below zero just to run a brush down the pipe when all they would have to do is let it burn for an hour or so each day. i dont know how this doesnt make sense. Heat is not a luxurry up here in the the 6-8 months of winter. if you burn it all off every day than it doesnt build up for weeks and start one big fire. i clean my pipe about 2 times a year any way but im not gonna do it every day so, i need something to keep it clean that i can do every day so i dont let it build up and chance a big fire before i can get up there and clean it. its preventative maintenance.

oilstinks said:

again jimbob that was single wall temp is it not double that?

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Yep, my stove-pipe is single wall, and the thermometer is a magnetic surface type. It is attached ~ 16" above the flue collar.
I don't really know if flue temps are always DOUBLE of what the magnetic thermometer indicates.
When my stack thermometer creeps past 850 degrees, I kind of doubt I'm experiencing 1700 degree flue gas temps.
I've never tried a probe thermometer, so i don't know what my real flue gas temps are.
If your buddy was running his stove so the surface type thermo was indicating 650, I don't think anything was really out of control, provided it was stuck to single-wall pipe. If he was getting 650 degree surface temps on double wall stove pipe, that would be a different story..... :gulp:

EPA, non-EPA, so-called Smoke Dragon stoves, the practicals of wood burning are not complex.
EPA engineering and regs were strictly for emissions, particulates, non-combustible/unburned gases that exit out of the flue.
Period. There was and is no EPA testing for incomplete burns that produce the variety of creosote products within flues due to many factors. Emissions only. Here is what happens with wood stoves:

One is user control which the EPA stoves were supposed to solve, but could not. For example, throw in a full load of wood just before bed, shut the air and/or damper down, leave a smouldering fire. EPA or non-EPA stove WILL produce those creosote products in the stove and on the walls of a flue.

Two is the flue. If the flue cannot draw well ( and no, I'm not going to recommend the Magnahelic or flue video testers ), and it is "cold", the incomplete gases will deposit on the walls of the flue. Deposits on the coldest part of the flue is at the cap and where the flue exits the roof.

Three, stoves are engineered for the IDEAL EPA specs: absolutely dry, wood fires. Most wood burners use a mix and variety of seasoned logs. Some may be below 10% (bone dry), or well above the exalted 20% number we hear too much about.
With wood, there is no control---unless using kiln dried firewood.

Four, think about your climate. Washington or Virginia or Connecticut or N.J. is not Michigan, not Minnesota, not even Maine. Northern temperate climate can have temperatures below 0 C most days from early November through March as so far this year. Simple online check: heating degree days. The delta bteween the outdoor temp and a comfortable indoor can average 40F to 50 F . More BTU's, more wood, more loads, greater chance of creosote buildup.

Five (near done, relax ): most of you using wood heat with stoves, furnaces, masonry heaters, inserts, or whatever, have a whole house heating system. Oil, gas, electric. That Delta only need to go up from the 68 F that most thermostats are set at. Less need for more BTU's or wood or loads. Not the same as 24/7 wood burning, or the whole house system shut off.

A controlled "open burn" once each day is a practical and safe and effective routine. The SOP for us in winter is to empty the ash pans each morning leaving the ash doors open, keeping a close watch on stove temps, closing the ash door when the thermometers reach a mid-range. Been at this with many many wood stoves for a long while. No cracked plates, no chimney fires, nothing except the Gump move throwing coals and ashes against the wind. :red: This is not theory, not an "old-timer's" rigid way.
Once a year, usually in late Spring, before Black Fly hatch, I'll sweep the chimneys. The only deposit and build-up is on the cap screen, which is always cold.

That's it. No theory. :exclaim:

akhilljack said:

most people arent going to let the stove burn out and cool down all afternoon so they can get on the roof in three feet of snow at 40 below zero just to run a brush down the pipe when all they would have to do is let it burn for an hour or so each day.

if you burn it all off every day than it doesnt build up for weeks and start one big fire.

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Yes, all true. In fact, I'm amazed that this point is being argued. I'm going to assume that's due partly to some people making comments who are relatively new to burning wood, and/or have never done so full-time in very cold areas with many outdoor temp-swings.

A few general statements. American people were heating their homes in the 1600s with wood fires and chimneys made from wood sticks and mud - and some managed to survive. Every generation seems to think that all before them were not as smart and equipment not as good. I don't agree. With all technology, there is an up and a down-side.

With some older wood/coal stoves, built in the early 1900s - some burn very clean. Just too hot and too short a time. Wasteful, yes. Old chimneys though are often too cold and build up deposits. I was working in a stove/furnace factory when the 1970s "air-tight" rage was in full-swing. They offered a big advantage over the older stoves, yet helped burn many a house down by ignonant users. Big problem was, many people turned them all the way down at night, which resulted in smoldering fires and very dirty chimneys. Then, one hot fire was all it took to ignite the chimney. Now? We're in the EPA certified age and rage. Some comments were made here that, perhaps, some posters have no idea how clean these new stoves/furnaces are? Yeah, right. They have the potential to burn a lot cleaner, yes - when used correctly and with a good chimney. "Potential" is not a synonym for "all situations." Many things have changed over the years with equipment, but with wood burning for heat - many things have not, and never will.

I've worked on many chimneys with some of the newest and highest rated wood burners that did indeed, leave substantial deposits in chimneys.

In my specific case, I have three wood heating sources for two buildings. My large, three-story workshop and barn is totally heated by an old boat-anchor Thermo-Control 500. Very low tech. 1970s "air-tight" furnace. I heat all winter, turn down every night, and clean the chimney once each summer. I run it ultra hot once each day, and have done so for 20 years here, and for 10 years before that in a different shop.

My house is an large, old farm house- first part built in 1820 along with several later additions.
My main heat source is the largest Myers Woochuck woo/coal furnace - a model 4000 rated at 180,000 BTUs. I also have a Canadian chimney that has tougher burn-out specs than USA rated HT chimneys. Burns very clean when hot. But . . . when outdoor temps are in the 40s, it's hard to keep the house from getting too hot, even with a small fire. So, when temps go from minus 30F, up to plus 40F, the furnace sits, turned way down, sometimes for days. This can happen anytime during our long winter. We get many "Indian Summers." I have not yet, seen a large indoor wood furnace in operation, regardless of EPA rating, that can be run for days turned all the way down, and burn clean as others have claimed here. I try to use it as long as possible since it is hooked to my domestic hot water, whereas my smaller EPA rated woodstove, is not.
The EPA rated unit is a Hearthstone Mansfield stove. We use this in the fall and spring when warmer outside temps get more consistent. It too will leave deposits on the upper chimney when run at the lowest setting for long periods. I'll add, I've worked around wood my entire life and I know what dry wood is. Once it's in daily use, I run it full bore, as hot a possible, for a half hour every day.

For others that have one mindset - and dismiss disenting comments that don't coincide - hey, think whatever you want. I'll believe what I see and use and do what works. I'm not closed-minded and welcome new innovations. I just happen to be a bit skepical, and with good resaons.

OilNoMore said:

A certain relative of mine cleans his chimney cap every year by climbing onto the roof, removing the cap, bringing it to the middle of the driveway, pouring gasoline all over it and lighting it. I think the neighbors are too scared to call the fire dept. As crazy as this sounds, he has a clean cap when it burns out.

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I did that earlier this year except I used laquer thinner. :lol:

I admittedly burn a smoke dragon because I didn't do my homework on wood furnaces before I got into this. Once I found this site, I tried to apply what I learned here to my burning habits and I think I've been pretty successful. In the next few years, I'll buy a new furnace with secondary burn, but for now, this is the system I have. I do burn it hot at least three times per day, usually when I put in fresh wood. By hot I mean I get my magnetic thermometer between 425 and 550 degrees. I cleaned my liner back in late November/early December, because I finally got my thermometer and learned I was kind of smoldering my wood. My wife told me later, "My dad just shook his head when I told him you cleaned the chimney already." I'm not sure if he even cleaned his once a year, but he never had a chimney fire. I'm not taking any chances though. Poles and a poly brush were cheap and getting up to the roof is easy enough, so I will run the brush down it a couple times during the heating season.

jdemaris said:

[

For others that have one mindset - and dismiss disenting comments that don't coincide - hey, think whatever you want. I'll believe what I see and use and do what works. I'm not closed-minded and welcome new innovations. I just happen to be a bit skepical, and with good resaons.

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------Nice to see a post that doesn't just summarily dismiss all the knowledge & experience that the "old timers" try to share with others. As to skepticism, I think it's a good thing--- we're still overrun with the blind faith believers in governmental control and more regulation of everything is the answer to all our problems----it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle that the people "in charge" who obviously know everything are the same ones who told us that aluminum wiring and UFI were fine to use in our homes!

Best wishes, Woodrat