Escape ladders - any opinions?

Gooserider · Apr 27, 2009

One of the things that we have been mildly concerned about for a long time is the ability to leave home safely in the event of a fire. Most of the house there is no problem as I figure you can always go out a first floor window and deal with the 6-8' drop to the ground if you have to. However our master bedroom is on the second floor, with only one open staircase - if there is a fire in the living room area, we would be stuck with a 16' drop to the ground out the bedroom window - not good...

We have been looking lately at some of the "escape ladders" designed for such situations - anyone have any opinions as to what works and what should be avoided?

There seem to be a lot of variations on the portable chain type ladders, such as this one from Home Depot - what worries me is it's in a separate box that is likely to get burried in a closet somewhere, and be hard to find if one ever needed it. I also have images of fumbling on the deployment and dropping the whole thing out the window. Still they are relatively low cost, and are certainly better than nothing.

Another option I've found seems to be these guys selling their PEARL - Permanent Escape And Rescue Ladder - it's a box that mounts permanently in the wall under the window, with the top of the ladder permanently attached to the box. Thus you can't bury it in a closet, and the deployment looks a lot more fool proof - something I suspect would matter if trying to deal with being woken up in the middle of the night by a blaring smoke alarm, and trying to deal with an emergency while half asleep...

They claim to include an insulation sheet that goes behind the box, so that the unit offers the same insulation value as an "Energy Star Compliant" window.

Downside is a slightly more complex installation (I would have to move an electrical outlet for certain, and probably have to relocate the jack studs under the window...) and about $100 more in cost over the chain ladders, but seems to me like a better product otherwise...

Anybody have much experience with (hopefully not "applied") these sorts of escape ladders, or opinions on the subject?

I know it's a relatively low risk, but it isn't that expensive (And I think codes these days require a second exit in any case...)

Gooserider

firefighterjake · Apr 27, 2009

It may be sacriligious to say, but I am not a fan of emergency escape ladders.

1) As you mentioned these things have a tendency to get buried under a bed and hidden behind the umpteen bazillion other things that get stuffed into there.

2) I would rather folks spend their money on purchasing more smoke detectors (ideally ionization and photo-electrics or combo units) to give them an even quicker alert to a potential fire so they can leave through their main exit.

3) Folks that have used these -- in non-emergent situations -- generally report that they are not as easy to use as the picture on the box or the neat graphics on-line. Many hang loose and as a result there is no space for the feet (or little space) on the rungs and between the house. A health class teacher told me how he and his boys attempted to try it out one day and the long and short of it . . . they were hanging on for dear life and were not able to easily use the thing.

My honest recommendation . . . save the money . . . if you truly are concerned about safely evacuating the second floor consider more/updated smoke detectors . . . and if you are still concerned a simple rope (with or without knots) should provide some sort of manner of escape. Generally, I tell folks if you are on a second floor and you absolutely have to go out a window (again . . . not usually an issue with good, working smoke detectors) you can as a last resort hang off the window (thereby reducing your drop a bit) and drop feet first although, of course, there is a possibility of injury.

SlyFerret · Apr 27, 2009

firefighterjake said:
It may be sacriligious to say, but I am not a fan of emergency escape ladders.

1) As you mentioned these things have a tendency to get buried under a bed and hidden behind the umpteen bazillion other things that get stuffed into there.

I've been thinking about putting an escape ladder in our bedroom. I was thinking about mounting it permanently to the wall right under the window so that it's right there, and I know it's securely fastened to the studs. I wouldn't want to be hunting for the ladder box in the event of an emergency either.

firefighterjake said:
2) I would rather folks spend their money on purchasing more smoke detectors (ideally ionization and photo-electrics or combo units) to give them an even quicker alert to a potential fire so they can leave through their main exit.

My wife and I spend about $3000 on having commercial grade CO detectors, heat detectors, and photo-electric smoke alarms installed, plus three commercial grade fire extinguishers. One for the laundry room, one for the kitchen/stove room (pretty open floor plan), and one for our bedroom.

The equipment was expensive, but I feel better having it. I watched too many videos online that showed typical consumer grade equipment failing to activate.

-SF

Gooserider · Apr 27, 2009

FFJ, interesting points...

We do have pretty good coverage on smoke/CO detectors - three hardwired combo units (one on each floor) and a couple of additional plug in detectors, one near the wood stove, and one in our bedroom.

I also have ABC extinguishers near our main exits (As they should be - IMHO extinguishers should ONLY be near exits as it reduces the odds of a person getting trapped if the extinguisher isn't up to the task. If the extinguisher is near the exit, you have to almost get out first, then head back towards the fire so at least in theory you will have guaranteed your clear path out if the fire is bigger than the extinguisher)

This ladder does have standoffs on it which helps, although I agree a vertical ladder is not easy to use. Frankly the idea of my GF trying to use it scares me - she is "super sized" and clumsy (I love her, but...) so how well she'd do is a very open question - though I figure fear is a great incentive :bug: However I figure every foot further down she gets will help.

Gooserider

flyingcow · Apr 27, 2009

Good topic......I've thought the same thing on this subject. The ladder out the window sounds good at first, but it's not fixed to the outer wall and that thought alone, i can see myself hanging upside down. At least I'll be easy to find when the rescue guys show up.

i will be following this thread for other ideas.

vandedav · Apr 27, 2009

fwiw...the house that i grew up in had a straight masonry chimney up the side of the house. all of us kids slept in bedrooms on the second floor. my bedroom window was right next to the chimney. my dad built and mounted a steel ladder to the side of the chimney that allowed us to slide out the window, reach to the side to get a hold of the ladder and climb down. it wasn't the easiest thing to do, but we practiced it at least a few times a year...

johnn · Apr 27, 2009

Scarey topic Gooserider: Not the first time I`ve spent unknown amounts of time contemplating all the possible answers. I would rather have a system that could support fire drills as safely as reasonably possible,,,even if its ugly or invites access to second floor.

Gooserider · Apr 28, 2009

ml said:
Scarey topic Gooserider: Not the first time I`ve spent unknown amounts of time contemplating all the possible answers. I would rather have a system that could support fire drills as safely as reasonably possible,,,even if its ugly or invites access to second floor.

Well, I agree, and it is worth noting that the PEARL ladder instructions actually do REQUIRE that you at least deploy and examine it a minimum of at least once a year - you have to log the dates in order to keep the warranty in force... You presumably don't have to climb down it, but I might be tempted to try...

While I would rather have a more permanent solution, I don't see anything that would even vaguely fall in the same price range. An escape ladder of some sort will be on the order of $150-300, which is not a huge sum

To put any sort of ladder / porch / fire escape where it would do any good would probably cost thousands, and not be much more useful...

The attached picture is the relevant side of the house - the top trio of windows is the master bedroom, and the ladder would go on the right most window (our bed is in front of the other two) The window underneath it is the first floor bathroom. The red door is my office, with the tumbledown porchlet outside it - that door hasn't been openned in the 15 years we've been in the house! (We are planning on getting siding, if we do I'm likely to see if code will allow that door to be removed, I could use the wall space)

I don't see many other options in the way of a more permanent / rugged solution to getting out that window.

Gooserider

BrotherBart · Apr 28, 2009

November first = Lean a aluminum extension ladder against the wall.

April first = Take it down.

flyingcow · Apr 28, 2009

BrotherBart said:
November first = Lean a aluminum extension ladder against the wall.

April first = Take it down.

And then april, put up the water slide, with the mini pool on the bottom. Wash and repeat

John_M · Apr 28, 2009

firefighterjake has also precisely described my thoughts. My experience (military and deep water boating) with rope ladders is that they require lots and lots of practice before they offer any real safety. Even with lots of practice they are very clumsy and awkward in use. I can't imagine a couple or more persons lined up to escape a burning house with a rope ladder being the only means of escape.

I have not researched the numerous escape options available (I live in a single story ranch) but the one that comes immediately to mind, if it is available, would be a rigid, folding boat boarding ladder which can be hung over the window sill and unfolded and long enough so the distance to the ground is not too great. These are rigid and have stand-offs, so are easy to use. However, they do have to be stored near the window and then must be deployed in an emergency situation. These ladders also come in a permanently mountable version which can be permanently mounted under a bedroom window.

I hope to have shed just a little light on the subject.

Best wishes,

John_M

firefighterjake · Apr 28, 2009

SlyFerret said:
firefighterjake said:

It may be sacriligious to say, but I am not a fan of emergency escape ladders.

1) As you mentioned these things have a tendency to get buried under a bed and hidden behind the umpteen bazillion other things that get stuffed into there.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about putting an escape ladder in our bedroom. I was thinking about mounting it permanently to the wall right under the window so that it's right there, and I know it's securely fastened to the studs. I wouldn't want to be hunting for the ladder box in the event of an emergency either.

firefighterjake said:

2) I would rather folks spend their money on purchasing more smoke detectors (ideally ionization and photo-electrics or combo units) to give them an even quicker alert to a potential fire so they can leave through their main exit.

Click to expand...

My wife and I spend about $3000 on having commercial grade CO detectors, heat detectors, and photo-electric smoke alarms installed, plus three commercial grade fire extinguishers. One for the laundry room, one for the kitchen/stove room (pretty open floor plan), and one for our bedroom.

The equipment was expensive, but I feel better having it. I watched too many videos online that showed typical consumer grade equipment failing to activate.

-SF

Holy cow . . . sounds like you've got quite the set up. I can only hope that the stuff you bought wasn't from Master Guard . . . a very slick company who operates throughout the US. They're legit and sell UL-listed products . . . but at an extreme mark up and after they use scare tactics to convince folks that the stuff you have in your house is crap and will not work. I have an issue with their tactics . . . again, all legal, but to me a bit dishonest . . . kind of like a snaky used car salesman . . . no offense to any used car salesmen who may be here.

Typical strategy of Master Guard is to lure folks to a free dinner (or at a Home Show they may have cards out for you to fill out to win a free prize -- at our Home Show it appears as though this company was there raffling off a gas grill) . . . once they have you at the dinner they show you videos and "demos" to convince you that the products you have are no good and their products are the end-all, be-all . . . honestly, having attended one of these it's a lot of smoke and mirrors and misinformation . . . but a very convincing sales talk. At this point they have you fill out a card for a "free" at home evaluation . . . this is where the hard sell comes in as they take a look at what you've got and then sell you as much crap as they can . . . all the while telling you that their stuff is the best stuff. One of our Medical Billing Secretary's Dad fell for the hype and spent $15,000 for a "state of the art system" . . . all stuff that I could get for less than $1,000 at the local hardware store.

As I said, I hope and trust the safety equipment you bought was not from this company . . . if not, just disregard my ramblings . . . if nothing else perhaps other folks will read this and learn something about the company.

firefighterjake · Apr 28, 2009

Gooserider said:
ml said:

Scarey topic Gooserider: Not the first time I`ve spent unknown amounts of time contemplating all the possible answers. I would rather have a system that could support fire drills as safely as reasonably possible,,,even if its ugly or invites access to second floor.

Click to expand...

Well, I agree, and it is worth noting that the PEARL ladder instructions actually do REQUIRE that you at least deploy and examine it a minimum of at least once a year - you have to log the dates in order to keep the warranty in force... You presumably don't have to climb down it, but I might be tempted to try...

While I would rather have a more permanent solution, I don't see anything that would even vaguely fall in the same price range. An escape ladder of some sort will be on the order of $150-300, which is not a huge sum

To put any sort of ladder / porch / fire escape where it would do any good would probably cost thousands, and not be much more useful...

The attached picture is the relevant side of the house - the top trio of windows is the master bedroom, and the ladder would go on the right most window (our bed is in front of the other two) The window underneath it is the first floor bathroom. The red door is my office, with the tumbledown porchlet outside it - that door hasn't been openned in the 15 years we've been in the house! (We are planning on getting siding, if we do I'm likely to see if code will allow that door to be removed, I could use the wall space)

I don't see many other options in the way of a more permanent / rugged solution to getting out that window.

Gooserider

After seeing a pic of your house I would stand by my first assessment . . . save your money. If you are really concerned, consider a rope that you could loop around a bed as an "anchor" . . . although if the truth be told what Brother Bart said actually isn't such a bad idea . . . or you could do as I have planned with a drop a few feet more than your situation . . . if things are truly that hairy (hopefully with the smoke detectors in my house I will have plenty of time to evacuate through one of the doors on the 1st floor) . . . I would simply open the window, hang off the ledge and drop feet first . . . realizing that there is a good chance I could break a leg, ankle, etc . . . but as someone else said . . . fear is a good motivating factor for bailing out when it's your last option.

On a side note, not really related to this topic except that it has to deal with fire safety and exiting . . . I just completed a Power Point presentation for a class I'm taking on The Station NightClub Fire in Rhode Island . . . wow . . . the presentation had some raw footage taken that night at the concert (I believe you can still find this WPRI footage on the internet still) . . . it's very powerful and moving to see this footage and realize that 100 of these people that you're watching will be dead within minutes of this filming and another 230 will be injured . . . for Fire Inspectors and Fire Safety Educators this is must-see TV as it is a good reminder of the importance of many basic fire safety tenets . . . including making sure there are plenty of exits, knowing where the exits are located, the importance of sprinkler systems in large public assemblies and of course the danger of using materials not rated for their particular use -- in this case highly flammable foam used inappropriately as sound-proofing.

johnn · Apr 28, 2009

Just now took a look at the Pearl. I`m sure I would be able to utilize it, but its not me im most concerned. I feel to have it mounted above the window, and removing both sashes would be required for my wife to exit the window( thats not a well thought through plan). The kitchen window seems to be an obstacle and possibly be broken by a foot(creating unknown issues). How bout a canopy being built over the kitchen window for a landing area ? Every little bit helps maybe? Go from there.

webbie · Apr 28, 2009

I have also thought about this for our summer place which is small but has two floors - bedroom on top floor, only one way up, large windows and no nearby roofs to climb off.

Then again, I think we overestimate the ability of our wives and daughters (and possibly ourselves) to climb down a rope ladder!

In my case, it is probably only 10 feet to the ground if I hang out the window first - soft ground.

Still, it's pretty cheap........

Bobbin · Apr 28, 2009

OK boys, I don't know what sort of women you've married or sired and I know that lots of people are afraid of ladders, ANY ladder. But I'm not one of them. I regularly climb them to hang awnings on my home, paint way up high, and while I've never loved a rope ladder I've used them before and never injured myself in the process. I think the important thing about rope ladders is that they're not steady and therefore require a cool head, good balance, and a decent level of strength/fitness. I don't think anyone is going to be at the top of their game in an emergency situation having just awakened to a smoke detector, smoke, heat, and all the rest of that good "motivating" stuff. I have to agree that I don't think they're the best option, but as the saying goes, "any port in storm".

My studio is on the second floor and the staircase is near the stove. I don't sleep there but have thought about a fire escape nonetheless. I explored the rope/chain ladder and was advised against it by a friend who is a firefighter and a harbor pilot. What I've decided to do is simply install a ladder on the side of the building, something that could serve double duty as a "trellis" for annual vines that would be yanked out after a hard frost, leaving the ladder "open" for the stove season. (The cats would enjoy climbing it, too)

johnn · Apr 28, 2009

Bobbin: I prefer your solid mount approach, aka "trellis" despite the fact that we cant control where the fire starts. One would hope that if the escape route is blocked,,, then the staircase wouldn`t be. If both are engulfed in flame, then our primary warning system must have failed, (or inadequate) and we most likely would never know.
I just feel that the awkward act of exiting a window and acquiring the position to decend, is best done with solid footing.

btwncentres · Apr 29, 2009

Hi....How about a fireman's pole? I think anyone at most any age could safely use it...maybe not too much fun if sleeping naked...though you wouldn't free fall down it....also some kids..adults.. feel creepy having a ladder fastened outside their window...I doubt too many people could climb up it.... Could be made to look sculptural...funky.....maybe plant Morning Glories or Scarlett Runner Beans up it in the summer..........

johnn · Apr 29, 2009

Why not use it for a combo flag pole. I kinda like that idea

rowerwet · Jun 29, 2009

I got one of those chain ladders a few years ago, It could easily get tangled deploying it, we did a family fire drill last fire safety month and all of us climbed down it, it can be done and it would beat jumping, but a dark stormy night I hope I don't have to use it.

Gooserider · Jun 29, 2009

Well I think we have decided to not worry about the ladder for now - we do have a good hardwired smoke / CO detector setup, and IMHO the risk of fire is pretty low in any case... I add that to the fact that the GF is large, and frankly rather clumsy under ideal circumstances - and I think I'm going to fall back on the advice of our towns Fire Chief - (Good team, they haven't lost a basement hole in years... :blank: ) Namely if we can't make it down the stairs, close the bedroom door, open the window and scream a lot... Let the FD figure out how to get her down...

Gooserider

rowerwet · Jun 30, 2009

there is a small roof over my front door that can be reached from one of my dedroom windows, I have told my wife to get out on there if she can't get down the stairs. from there there is a large bush underneath that would be softer than landing on the ground. I have my ladder hanging on hooks on the outside of my garage so she or a neighbor could get it and get the kids off the roof that way.
one other idea I have seen for a ladder on ebay, was one that after you hook it to the widow it has a cover around it that you rip off, then as you step on each rung the chain has some sort of locking action to it so it becomes ridgid, not sure how.

Escape ladders - any opinions?

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