Black Piping 101 pointer?

Gooserider · May 6, 2009

Any good pointers to a "black pipe 101" reference? I've done some searching, and found some good threads with info on component choices, thread sealers, and so forth, but haven't found any good pointers on how to figure dimensions, and layout type stuff - i.e. things like:

I want to go from point A to point B w/ my pipe run, how do I figure out what lengths of pipe to use, how much length the fittings will take up, and so forth?

If I have a peice of pipe that's threaded on both ends, and has an end to end measurement of X inches, how much length will it add to my run when I put it into fittings?

Or the reverse, if I have two fittings that are X inches apart, how do I figure out the length of pipe that I need to connect them?

How much room do I need to allow for thermal expansion, especially if going around a corner or something like that?

Are there "rules" about where one MUST put unions, or is it just a question of convenience?

How about any other required, but not immediately obvious techniques (like the crud trap legs on gas feeds)?

How much can you "flex" the pipes to get everything to line up? (or how far "off" can you get away with?)

Are there rules about when you can and can't put your own threads on a pipe, as opposed to using 'factory' threaded nipples and lengths?

I've done a bit of pipe work here and there, but it has generally been "guess and golly" as to getting stuff to line up and fit together properly.... OTOH, when I've watched plumbers doing it, they seem to take a couple measurements, go grab some pipe and fittings, and it all fits together just right - I'm sure they must have some formulas or charts they use to figure out what parts to use, is there some place where us "mere mortals" can find them?

If someone can either post a nice "piping 101" article, or a pointer to a good reference, it would probably be worth adding to the "useful resources" sticky...

Gooserider

DaveBP · May 6, 2009

I'll second the motion.

That's my only real disappointment with Siegenthaler's book. He doesn't give iron pipe any serious consideration.

kevindauch · May 6, 2009

I believe that there was a previous thread on this, but from my experiences I found:
Use pipe dope on all joints, if 1 1/4 or greater put dope on both sides of the joint.
Hand tighten then 2 turns with a wrench.
When going from iron to copper use lots of teflon tape + pipe dope. Copper expands at a different rate. Also try to solder the joint before attaching to iron.

mtnmizer · May 6, 2009

I did all the work on my boiler install under the supervision of a master plumber.
I have a good amount of mechanical/machinist experience background. I have
done many much more complicated projects prior to this. The information on this
board was very helpfull.

Use quality fittings if possible, my plumber gave me access to his supplier
which was great. Much better quality/selection/price than Lowes/HD. Building
is slow so the supply guys didn't mind me coming in, they're always real busy in the AM
so I went in just after noon when things were slower.

Get good tools, you owe it to yourself to use decent tools.

I used tape and dope on all fittings. I dry fitted everything hand tight first, checking
for bad threads.

Use isolation valves and unistruts as much as possible,more expensive but a must IMO.
I have OSB on the wall under the sheetrock so the struts can go anywhere and look nice
and clean.

I threaded all my pipe by hand, kinda slow but not too bad. Sharp, clean threads
are a must. I used quite a few unions.

The makeup is the pipe size minus 1/8" ie the threads go into the fittings 5/8", except
reducing and 45's.

I always pushed a rag through the pipe after threading to get it clean.

The ultimate compliment paid to me was when the journyman who did the final
hook up observed everything looked like a professional install..no leaks and
works perfect.

Good luck

MM

hedge wood · May 7, 2009

mtnmizer said:
I did all the work on my boiler install under the supervision of a master plumber.
I have a good amount of mechanical/machinist experience background. I have
done many much more complicated projects prior to this. The information on this
board was very helpfull.

Use quality fittings if possible, my plumber gave me access to his supplier
which was great. Much better quality/selection/price than Lowes/HD. Building
is slow so the supply guys didn't mind me coming in, they're always real busy in the AM
so I went in just after noon when things were slower.

Get good tools, you owe it to yourself to use decent tools.

I used tape and dope on all fittings. I dry fitted everything hand tight first, checking
for bad threads.

Use isolation valves and unistruts as much as possible,more expensive but a must IMO.
I have OSB on the wall under the sheetrock so the struts can go anywhere and look nice
and clean.

I threaded all my pipe by hand, kinda slow but not too bad. Sharp, clean threads
are a must. I used quite a few unions.

The makeup is the pipe size minus 1/8" ie the threads go into the fittings 5/8", except
reducing and 45's.

I always pushed a rag through the pipe after threading to get it clean.

The ultimate compliment paid to me was when the journyman who did the final
hook up observed everything looked like a professional install..no leaks and
works perfect.

Good luck
I couldn't agreed more.I have had great sucess using good quaitly telfon tape and a pipe dope made by permtex that also has telfon in it. Go to a wholesale house to get fitting and valves the better quailty is worth the hasial going there.
MM

LeonMSPT · May 7, 2009

1. Righty tighty, lefty loosey...

2. Measure twice cut once.
3. If you cut it once, and it's still too short, no point in cutting it again.

4. Dope, then tape... if the tape is in your right hand, pipe in in left hand, wrap from the end of the pipe to away from you. Follow the threads.
5. Buy a level, and use it.
6. 1/4 bubble pitch back toward to drain the system when you need to.
7. Use the right size pipe... too small and you can't push heat through it, too big and you push heat through it too fast.

Use a reamer after you cut to break the ridge... mind your fingers you'll cut 'em to the bone. Wipe carefully after threading for the same reason. You're going to get dirty, and likely pretty sweaty. Have fun and do a good job.

Oh. Measure twice and cut once.

Gooserider · May 7, 2009

mtnmizer said:
I did all the work on my boiler install under the supervision of a master plumber. I have a good amount of mechanical/machinist experience background. I have done many much more complicated projects prior to this. The information on this board was very helpfull.

I agree, don't think I would have dared try without what I've been reading here...

Use quality fittings if possible, my plumber gave me access to his supplier which was great. Much better quality/selection/price than Lowes/HD. Building is slow so the supply guys didn't mind me coming in, they're always real busy in the AM so I went in just after noon when things were slower.

Agreed, though I've seen a lot of people suggesting that stocking up on the frequently used items off of E-bay, and some of the mail order places can save a good bit.

Get good tools, you owe it to yourself to use decent tools.

I've mostly got decent tools, though I might need to get some large size pipe wrenches - I think the biggest I have right now is a 12 or 14" My pipe threader isn't real good either - discount kit I got from HF back when I was not thinking I'd have a great need for it... Is that something I could upgrade by just getting new dies for it?

I used tape and dope on all fittings. I dry fitted everything hand tight first, checking for bad threads.

I've done about the same on the small amount of black pipe that I've done - layer of dope, layer of tape, layer of dope - generic teflon tape, and "Rectorseal" (I think #3) dope, hand tight plus 3 turns, or 2.5 turns plus whatever it takes to end up pointing the right direction - as reccomended on the Rectorseal can. (I'm one of those strange people who read package directions :coolhmm: )

Use isolation valves and unistruts as much as possible,more expensive but a must IMO. I have OSB on the wall under the sheetrock so the struts can go anywhere and look nice and clean.

Isolation valves I get and was planning on, but unistruts? (I always used plumbers strap...)

One of the things I will need to do in the utility room is figure out how best to finish the walls, if at all... Right now they are bare concrete - rest of the basement has finished walls w/ (I think) 2x4 studs with fiberglass between them, and covered with vertical shiplap board panelling. Part of the challenge is that the basement is about 50/50 above and below grade, and per the Building Science folks, the reccomended treatment for the walls depends on if one is above or below grade... Whatever I end up doing, I've been assuming that the plumbing area (at least) will end up covered w/ 1/2 or 3/4" ply just to provide a surface to mount everything...

I threaded all my pipe by hand, kinda slow but not too bad. Sharp, clean threads are a must. I used quite a few unions.

My assumption was that "factory" threads were the best, and that the best approach was to stick with stock length pipe nipples except where you need the occasional odd length to fill in a gap...

The makeup is the pipe size minus 1/8" ie the threads go into the fittings 5/8", except reducing and 45's.

Ahh... This is mostly what I was asking - but I'm having a bit of trouble parsing it... Pipe size minus 1/8" is only going to go into a fitting 5/8" if you are using 3/4" pipe? Otherwise wouldn't it be different for other pipe sizes?
Is that on one end, or both ends? (i.e. if I have a 24" length of 1" pipe, is my effective length going to be 23 1/8" or 22 1/4"?)

What happens w/ reducers and 45's?

I always pushed a rag through the pipe after threading to get it clean.

Makes sense.

The ultimate compliment paid to me was when the journyman who did the final
hook up observed everything looked like a professional install..no leaks and
works perfect.

Sounds like the way it should be - I had a similar deal once w/ some electrical work - helped a friend wire up an outside gazebo, his mother insisted on having it inspected for insurance reasons. According to her, the inspector was very complimentary, said it was a great job and that I had met or exceeded all code requirements... :coolsmile:

Gooserider

LeonMSPT · May 7, 2009

Gooserider said:
Any good pointers to a "black pipe 101" reference? I've done some searching, and found some good threads with info on component choices, thread sealers, and so forth, but haven't found any good pointers on how to figure dimensions, and layout type stuff - i.e. things like:

I want to go from point A to point B w/ my pipe run, how do I figure out what lengths of pipe to use, how much length the fittings will take up, and so forth?
******************

Ten foot lengths about as much as anyone wants to handle alone... usually about all you can haul too.

If I have a peice of pipe that's threaded on both ends, and has an end to end measurement of X inches, how much length will it add to my run when I put it into fittings?
*************************
Diameter of the pipe, plus an eighth for good measure.

Or the reverse, if I have two fittings that are X inches apart, how do I figure out the length of pipe that I need to connect them?
************************
Length of the run minus 1/8 plus the diameter of the pipe on each end.

How much room do I need to allow for thermal expansion, especially if going around a corner or something like that?
************************
Unless you're on a long run... Maintain two inches clearance and you should be fine. Tighten them TIGHT!

Are there "rules" about where one MUST put unions, or is it just a question of convenience?
************************
Unions useful where you might have a need to break in to the system for something. Replacement/repair...

How about any other required, but not immediately obvious techniques (like the crud trap legs on gas feeds)?
***********************
Hangers and supports often and frequently.

How much can you "flex" the pipes to get everything to line up? (or how far "off" can you get away with?)
**********************
How strong are you? Depends more on how good you want the job to look. The more you yank and tug, the less "plumb" the far end will be.

Are there rules about when you can and can't put your own threads on a pipe, as opposed to using 'factory' threaded nipples and lengths?
**********************
If the piece of pipe is too short to fit in a vise, you'll need a nipple...

I've done a bit of pipe work here and there, but it has generally been "guess and golly" as to getting stuff to line up and fit together properly.... OTOH, when I've watched plumbers doing it, they seem to take a couple measurements, go grab some pipe and fittings, and it all fits together just right - I'm sure they must have some formulas or charts they use to figure out what parts to use, is there some place where us "mere mortals" can find them?
**********************
Followed dad around most of my life as a kid and teenager... afraid I do it like he did it, and have a hard time explaining why. Stuff seems to come out though.

If someone can either post a nice "piping 101" article, or a pointer to a good reference, it would probably be worth adding to the "useful resources" sticky...

Gooserider

LeonMSPT · May 7, 2009

Larger diameter pipe, the longer the threaded portion to join them. Piece of 4 inch is going to have 4 times the threads a piece of 1 inch has. Tighten your joints in good shape. Deep as you can get them. No leaks... problem with steel pipe is if you manage to have one too loose you have to take one end apart.

The makeup is the pipe size minus 1/8" ie the threads go into the fittings 5/8", except reducing and 45's.

Ahh... This is mostly what I was asking - but I'm having a bit of trouble parsing it... Pipe size minus 1/8" is only going to go into a fitting 5/8" if you are using 3/4" pipe? Otherwise wouldn't it be different for other pipe sizes?
Is that on one end, or both ends? (i.e. if I have a 24" length of 1" pipe, is my effective length going to be 23 1/8" or 22 1/4"?)

What happens w/ reducers and 45's?

Singed Eyebrows · May 7, 2009

Hi GR; I can sure recommend anerobic pipe sealers (Locktite pipe sealer,Seals Pipe etc). You won't need teflon tape with these. These contain teflon, they are not your typical hdw store teflon sealers though. They are about 10 bucks a tube & will seal up a lot of pipes. I've used these sealers for 30 years. Randy

stee6043 · May 7, 2009

For the DIY'ers out there - DO NOT FEAR BLACK PIPE! My first and only black pipe experience was when installing my EKO 40 last winter. I used the dope, rope, dope methond on all joints and did not have a single leak. It's really not that hard and I managed a pretty clean install with parts purchased from both The Home Depot and Grainger.com. Just purchase a whole slew of nipples and get after it. It's fun and at times hard work. But it's really not rocket science...if I can do it....anyone can do it.

As you can see in the left of this photo I used plenty of dope on my joints....

DaveBP · May 7, 2009

The biggest problems I've had with pipe threads is that the male threads are all banged up. Looks like they handle them with front end loaders. I run dies over them and run a tap into the internal threads. Just doing that without taking any more metal off but just cleaning up the nicks and dings will allow a full thread or more takeup by hand. That's got to help the pipe dope or tape seal better.

You get up to larger size pipe and these dies and taps are very expensive. I have the advantage of working in a machine shop and am able to borrow 2" dies and taps when I need them. For just a few fittings one could run a triangle file over the obvious external nicks.

I'm going to be learning a lot more about this stuff over this summer as I put my system together but wish there were a good reference book to look for tips in without having to redo so much in the process.

OldDedHed · May 7, 2009

I'll throw another idea in here. I only owned 14" wrenches, too, when I did my boiler install. My brother has 4 foot aluminum wrenches but he's 200 miles away. Instead of paying big bucks for wrenches I'll probably only use on one or two jobs, I used a piece of 1.25" black pipe as a wrench extender. Allows you to really get some torque on those joints without busting a gut or your wallet. I did tape and dope as well, and cranked those suckers as far as they would go with my extended wrenches. No leaks. Have fun!

Gooserider · May 7, 2009

DaveBP said:
The biggest problems I've had with pipe threads is that the male threads are all banged up. Looks like they handle them with front end loaders. I run dies over them and run a tap into the internal threads. Just doing that without taking any more metal off but just cleaning up the nicks and dings will allow a full thread or more takeup by hand. That's got to help the pipe dope or tape seal better.

I agree... especially on the outside threads, haven't had that much trouble with the inside threads.

You get up to larger size pipe and these dies and taps are very expensive. I have the advantage of working in a machine shop and am able to borrow 2" dies and taps when I need them. For just a few fittings one could run a triangle file over the obvious external nicks.

I can well imagine - I just checked my HF pipe threading kit. It covers 1/2", 3/4", and 1" sizes, looks like the die holder MIGHT be able to handle a 1-1/4" die, but I'm not sure... I'm sure it would do for thread cleanup like you reccomended, not sure about how good it would do for actually cutting new threads - though it might be ok for this one job... The good thing is that I've gathered the impression that once you get away from the boiler itself, most of the plumbing is 1" or smaller...

I'm going to be learning a lot more about this stuff over this summer as I put my system together but wish there were a good reference book to look for tips in without having to redo so much in the process.

EXACTLY - that was essentially what I was asking for, though I sort of like websites a bit better (they cost less to use...)

Gooserider

Gooserider · May 8, 2009

Just found an interesting site, might not have exactly what I had in mind, though it comes close in many ways, and I'm still exploring it - but has LOTS of other information on all sorts of stuff - some related to our sorts of heating systems, and some doing hairier engineering things....

Looks like a good resource, in some ways it reminds me of those little "pocket reference" guides you sometimes find...

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