silicone in the wrong places?

Stentor · Jun 9, 2009

There may be a problem with a silicone pellet vent pipe. Do I have to replace the pipe?

The chimney sweep came today to clean the chimney, the flue liner and the 3" Simpson pellet vent. He could not open the cleanout cap at the bottom of the T-pipe that connects the stove to the pipe in the wall. This is a problem. (The hardware is an UltraPro 3156 Ti-Alloy 3"x18" pipe with collar plate, tee and tee cover, appliance adapter, black 90 degree elbow, 36" pipe, 24" pipe, 12" adjustable pipe, wall thimble.)

The reason he couldn't take the cap off is that when the dealer installed the stove and attached it to the T-pipe that the chimney sweep put in, the dealer's guys then put silicon inside the edge of the cap and on the bottom of the cap. I'm supposed to be able to unscrew the cap by hand from the bottom to drop out any fly ash, maybe every couple of tons. But the only way now is to unscrew the T-pipe from the stove then also unscrew the pipe from the entry into the wall hole. That means disconnecting the stove entirely to get rid of two or three inches of ash. That's definitely not the way the stove and pipe are designed to be used.

The chimney guy I've known for years and he does a good job. The dealership is OK and obviously the guys connecting the stove to the pipe had the best intentions. They put silicone all around any possible crevice from stove to plate in the wall which I guess was good although I think these pipes and stove are designed to just snap in. I had no problem all winter and the stove worked great.

The dealer is scheduled to clean the stove in a couple of weeks. I think the dealer caused the problem by putting the silicone on and preventing anyone from just using the cap by pulling it off manually. So he should fix the problem. I'll see him before they come to the house and explain the situation.

But I want to be reasonable and be sure I am understanding the problem correctly. Any suggestions?

summit · Jun 9, 2009

they were only trying to help you out... simpson pipe leaks like crazy if you do not put silicone on every joint (sometimes even the fixed joints on elbows). the best thing is to keep working at rmoving the tee plug, keep trying to twist it, maybe even pry at it w/ a screwdriver. eventually, it will come apart for you to clean it. after that, go to the hardware store and get some foil tape
(looks like alum foil with a sticky backing) and wrap it around that joint. you will lose the strip of tape every year when you clean it, but it is easy to re-apply, and a lot less aggravation. i would not come down too hard on the dealer... chances are if that thing leaked smoke every time it ran you would be much more po'd than you are with this cap issue.

Stentor · Jun 10, 2009

Thanks for both comments. I wanted to understand more before I started complaining to the guys who attached the stove and put the silicone on. I was puzzled because the chimney sweep I know does careful work and the dealer has a good reputation and the equipment is good quality, so why was I finding a problem?

1. You're right that I sure would have been mad if I had smoke coming in. Sealing was good if that was prevented. Maybe the dealer put a little too much silicone on when they took off the cap and put the stuff around the rim and put it back in, but what's done is done. I'll talk to them.

2. Both suggestions may work - -getting that aluminum tape or wiggle in a pellet brush and shop vac out the ash.

But I have an important question still: do I have to get to that T cap more than once a season? If it's only once a year that's one thing. But if it's two or three times a year, that's another kettle of fish. The chimney sweep told me that fly ash builds up and could eventually start to block the vent pipe in the T. The result would be that the stove would stop working and give me an error message on the electronics panel but probably not damage the stove. It didn't block this year but I used only a little more than two tons of pellets. Next year I expect to burn the four tons I just bought.

And is there a safety issue here?

summit · Jun 10, 2009

burning the harman xxv, you should only have to access that tee once a year. And, if you know what you are doing, you can get to it without removing the plug thru the firebox on the stove. when you remove the exhaust fan and esp probe during the annual cleaning, you leave a straight shot thru to the pipe that you can snake a small vac hose into thru the square exhaust hole in the bottom of the firebox straight into the pipe.

Delta-T · Jun 10, 2009

i wouldn't say you have a "safety" issue exactly.
The T cap on simpson fits over the pipe I think (correct me if I'm wrong) and then twists on. I'd suggest twisting the cap on and then puting the silicone on the outside of the joint. Then, when you do need to get the cap off you can cut the silicone bead and peel it off. You'll have to re-silicone it every time you do so, but it beats wrestling with the pipe.

If the pipe does get clogged it'll set off the vacuum sensor and just stop feeding pellets (really annoying in January).

summit · Jun 10, 2009

in regards to safety, no there is no safety issue.... there is a pressure switch in the stove that stops the feed if the doors are left open, or if the vent is blocked.

stoveguy2esw · Jun 10, 2009

if you cannot get enough torque on the tee cap by hand see if you have a "strap type" oil filter wrench handy, i use them to take apart caulked sections gives much more torsion without crimping the pipe (actually i use 2 one for each section , doesnt usually damage the pipe at all and works quite well for me) hope this helps ya

stoveguy2esw · Jun 10, 2009

Stentor said:
But I have an important question still: do I have to get to that T cap more than once a season? If it's only once a year that's one thing. But if it's two or three times a year, that's another kettle of fish. The chimney sweep told me that fly ash builds up and could eventually start to block the vent pipe in the T. The result would be that the stove would stop working and give me an error message on the electronics panel but probably not damage the stove. It didn't block this year but I used only a little more than two tons of pellets. Next year I expect to burn the four tons I just bought.

And is there a safety issue here?

i pull my cleanout every ton of pellets, and generally recommend the same. if you are miserly with the caulk you can still pop the cap relatively easy especially with the strap wrench method i posted above (provided you have room , the metal tape method of sealing does quite well also but 4 ton IMHO is too long to go without sweeping the flue.

rona · Jun 11, 2009

You can also use a butane torch and soften the silicone. It will come off very easy if you heat it up a little.

summit · Jun 11, 2009

.
i pull my cleanout every ton of pellets, and generally recommend the same. 4 ton IMHO is too long to go without sweeping the flue.[/quote]

dude, you've never had a harman. we get folks up here who burn 4-5 ton (my wifes uncle is on his 5th ton) and only have to sweep out the vent once/yr. try one out, you'll get a rippin tax credit.

stoveguy2esw · Jun 11, 2009

summit said:
.
i pull my cleanout every ton of pellets, and generally recommend the same. 4 ton IMHO is too long to go without sweeping the flue.

dude, you've never had a harman. we get folks up here who burn 4-5 ton (my wifes uncle is on his 5th ton) and only have to sweep out the vent once/yr. try one out, you'll get a rippin tax credit.[/quote]

im not saying it cannot be done (running that long between cleanings) just that IMHO it should be done more often than that. as for harman , they make outstanding stoves , but im happy with the ones i build

Wood Heat Stoves · Jun 12, 2009

summit said:
they were only trying to help you out... simpson pipe leaks like crazy if you do not put silicone on every joint (sometimes even the fixed joints on elbows). the best thing is to keep working at rmoving the tee plug, keep trying to twist it, maybe even pry at it w/ a screwdriver. eventually, it will come apart for you to clean it. after that, go to the hardware store and get some foil tape
(looks like alum foil with a sticky backing) and wrap it around that joint. you will lose the strip of tape every year when you clean it, but it is easy to re-apply, and a lot less aggravation. i would not come down too hard on the dealer... chances are if that thing leaked smoke every time it ran you would be much more po'd than you are with this cap issue.

do you make sure the fiberglass seal is seated properly?
it never smokes on my installs.

Wood Heat Stoves · Jun 12, 2009

i'd let the guy who installed it clean it, that'd show him!

summit · Jun 13, 2009

Wood Heat said:
summit said:

they were only trying to help you out... simpson pipe leaks like crazy if you do not put silicone on every joint (sometimes even the fixed joints on elbows). the best thing is to keep working at rmoving the tee plug, keep trying to twist it, maybe even pry at it w/ a screwdriver. eventually, it will come apart for you to clean it. after that, go to the hardware store and get some foil tape
(looks like alum foil with a sticky backing) and wrap it around that joint. you will lose the strip of tape every year when you clean it, but it is easy to re-apply, and a lot less aggravation. i would not come down too hard on the dealer... chances are if that thing leaked smoke every time it ran you would be much more po'd than you are with this cap issue.

Click to expand...

do you make sure the fiberglass seal is seated properly?
it never smokes on my installs.

they never set properly.. and the twist lock is a joke.. try icc pellet pipe, you'll never go back.

Wood Heat Stoves · Jun 13, 2009

i dont have a distributor of icc that i like or i might purchase a sample system or two...
anyone you recomend on the west coast?
you can email me..if you prefer
[email protected]

Stentor · Jun 13, 2009

Thanks for the ICC pellet pipe suggestion. I don't know anything about them but they're worth looking into. My first step should be to give the dealer the chance to fix the problem since his employees caused it. I want to do it the right way because we're really talking only human error here, not deliberate negligence or anything. As a couple of people pointed out, they were trying to help me. I like long term business relationships and keeping them cordial.

I'm hesitant about ICC because my building permit, building inspector sign-off and paperwork I provided a copy of to my home insurance agent are all based on the Simpson specifications.

(Wood Heat, maybe I didn't understand your question about a reliable ICC distributor but here's the website I found. http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/icc/Brochures___Catalogue )

Wood Heat Stoves · Jun 13, 2009

Stentor said:
I'm hesitant about ICC because my building permit, building inspector sign-off and paperwork I provided a copy of to my home insurance agent are all based on the Simpson specifications.

(Wood Heat, maybe I didn't understand your question about a reliable ICC distributor but here's the website I found. http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/icc/Brochures___Catalogue )

are you saying you have issues pulling permits for jobs using other brands than simpson?

over all i like duravent products better, the only west coast dist. of icc (that i know of is AES...i occasionally need icc, eccell vent they never get it to me un damaged in shipping)aes is not my prefered source....
sipmson has much better distribution and pricing

Stentor · Jun 13, 2009

Wood Heat said:
Stentor said:

I'm hesitant about ICC because my building permit, building inspector sign-off and paperwork I provided a copy of to my home insurance agent are all based on the Simpson specifications.
...
are you saying you have issues pulling permits for jobs using other brands than simpson?

Click to expand...

No, I'm not saying that. In fact, I never heard of ICC before now and I had to Google it, getting initially a web site that referred to standard sizes warning labels and only secondarily a pipe company. And I have pulled one and only one permit involving pipes when I bought a pellet stove last year. My point was that I have solid paperwork and insurance backup for one specific stove model, pipe, etc., etc. Maybe it was overkill but my insurance agent has a copy of the permit and signed inspection, the Harman's manufacturer data sheet with picture of the XXV stove, license ID of the installer of the chimney liner and so forth. I don't want to change any of the pieces now that they are all in place. (My only problem is that one piece - - - the cap at the bottom of the pipe - - is all too much in place! :coolsmile: )

I checked your web site and I see how I wasn't clear. I'm an individual homeowner and not in the business, where your perspective is the opposite.

Wood Heat Stoves · Jun 13, 2009

gottcha..
not every brand/install manual will even list icc/excell vent
but it IS approved for nearly every situation, as long as the flue colar fits, or a propriatary pipe system is not specifically required by the maker

edit
sorry to derail your thread....

summit · Jun 13, 2009

the icc stuff (also called excel) has a lot smoother outside appearance than the simpson, and has a silicone O ring built into it, thus no need for silicone or making sure the rope gaskets are in place. rather than the twis lock system, they slp together and are fastened by a couple small screws (included w/ the pipe.) requires only a 1" clearance, and is easy to dissasemble/reassemble by just taking out the 1/4" sheet metal screw. I do not know of any distributors on the west coast, but i'll pm you the info for the company's contact guy, he can put you in touch w/ a distributor. We used to use nothing but simpson, and after doing one install and/ or cleaning with the icc pellet pipe you will know why we switched. the overall price is about a 5% bigger difference, but well worth it.

Wood Heat Stoves · Jun 13, 2009

Thank-you Summit

Stentor · Jul 17, 2009

Here's an update. I spoke with the dealer's technician today before the end of season cleaning and went over some of the ideas you folks have posted above:

1. foil tape
2. shop vac and suck out from bottom of tee during cleaning
3. shop vac through firebox
4. strap type oil filter wrench
5. butane torch

He says he can get the cap off and then bead silicone only on the outside. That way it can be cut off and unscrewed when needed. He also says that the four tons I will burn (Okanagan and New England Wood Pellets) are not likely to leave enough ash in the tee to stop the stove. Supposedly the worst case is that the stove will stop running and not damage itself or cause a fire.

End of this month was the earliest I could get the cleaning scheduled but that shouldn't be a rust problem, I hope. The stove vents into an existing flue which the chimney sweep cleaned this spring.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll let you know what happens.

eschills · Jul 22, 2009

Stentor said:
Here's an update. I spoke with the dealer's technician today before the end of season cleaning and went over some of the ideas you folks have posted above:

1. foil tape
2. shop vac and suck out from bottom of tee during cleaning
3. shop vac through firebox
4. strap type oil filter wrench
5. butane torch

He says he can get the cap off and then bead silicone only on the outside. That way it can be cut off and unscrewed when needed. He also says that the four tons I will burn (Okanagan and New England Wood Pellets) are not likely to leave enough ash in the tee to stop the stove. Supposedly the worst case is that the stove will stop running and not damage itself or cause a fire.

End of this month was the earliest I could get the cleaning scheduled but that shouldn't be a rust problem, I hope. The stove vents into an existing flue which the chimney sweep cleaned this spring.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll let you know what happens.

I did my own install and went through a lot of trial and error trying to stop the smoke issue I had. I did not silicone any joints as I was under the impression the twist connections and rope seals would be good enough. I then tried to silicone the outside of all joints and still had smoke. I then did silicone the inside of all joints except the Tee cap and almost all the smoke was gone. I still had some from the cap. I used foil tape and 99% is gone. Because of the dual wall some smoke does get past the rope seal and come out the bottom. Unless you silicone it you will get a small amount of smoke. The newer model of Simpson pipe is also better I am told. i just do not want to spend another $200 for new setup.

CONCORDE · Sep 17, 2009

Ya'll must be working some awfully old Simpson pipe!! They updated to a new version at least two years ago. The old stuff had rope seals and the joints had to be sealed with silicone. The new stuff has a metal-on-metal primary seal and a secondary encapsulated silicone seal between the inner and outer pipe walls. Like Excel, there is no need for extra silicone (unless the stove manufacturer insists on it). Sections go together and come apart with minimal effort. This product also has just a 1” minimum clearance.

peirhead · Sep 17, 2009

My Tee is outside...I initially thought it was siliconed on as well. but after asking the dealer about it you simply remove 2 screws and pull out the bottom cap..(see pic) not sure what brand of pipe it is though!

silicone in the wrong places?

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