Domestic Water Pressure Booster Pump

LLigetfa · Sep 25, 2009

I'm on well water that has a lot of iron and so have an iron filter. The downside of it is that the micronizer only works at lower pressures and there is also a pressure drop across the filter bed at higher flow rates. From what I read, the answer is to use a domestic water pressure booster pump. My water equipment supplier suggests the Grundfos MQ pump but he's not being very specific about what pressure at what flow rate I can expect. From what I've been able to Google, it doesn't actually regulate the pressure and that I would have to add a pressure regulator after the pump.

Anyone with domestic water pressure booster pump experience care to chime in?

Hogwildz · Sep 26, 2009

Don't have it here, but was thinking of adding one here also.
Curious to see costs & if any pipe/valve/fitting issues with these boosters.

LLigetfa · Sep 26, 2009

These guys list an optional pressure regulator for $135 while the pump is listed for $429.
http://www.wwpp.us/grundfos/mq-pump.shtml

This brand at $823 suggests a regulator on the intake to limit the pressure on the outlet.
http://www.pressurebooster.com/130voltsystem.html

From what I read, plumbing is straight forward.

I worry about what minimum flow will turn the pump on and how high the pressure will boost. I have an RO filter that draws a small amount for a long period of time as it replenishes. I'm thinking the slower the draw, the higher the pressure, hence the need for a pressure regulator. I couldn't find any specs on the regulator, but looking at the picture ( http://www.wwpp.us/grundfos/prv_pumpview.jpg ) it says the range of adjustment is 18 to 35 psi which makes me think it is to limit the intake, not the outlet. My pump is set to kick in at 30 and out at 50 but I don't know what the pressure drop is across the iron filter. I think a constant 60 psi at the taps would be ideal.

I Googled for other brands and they too offer pressure regulators (probably for the intake) but haven't found any specs on them. I know there are pressure regulators for much higher pressure but I wonder if they need to be matched to the pump so the pump doesn't short cycle (on/off) repeatedly.

Maybe I just don't understand how these pumps work and that they self regulate regardless of flow rate but I'm skeptical. If the pressure across my iron filter varies commensurate with gpm flow, then the output of the booster would likely vary as well.

seige101 · Sep 26, 2009

Just some random thoughts here.

Would the booster pump not try to draw water through the filter faster than the filter can process it?

What about putting a pressure tank in line after the filter? This way you have a reserve of all ready filtered water.

LLigetfa · Sep 26, 2009

Another approach I'm considering is to use a constant pressure system. The variable speed submersible pump with constant pressure controller wouldn't work because of the iron filter, for two reasons. First, the micronizer only works at low pressures. Second, the constant pressure is measured at the storage tank, not after the iron filter. A second variable speed pump would have to be placed in tandem after the iron filter. It sounds expensive.

Another approach is the cycle stop valves (CSV) that work with cheaper conventional fixed rate pumps. They are designed to keep the pump running under variable draw and not cycle on and off. I just started looking into these systems and haven't found a schematic of exactly how they work but my guess is that it works like a flow limiting pressure regulating valve holding back some of the surplus water pressure between the pump and the pressure sensor. From what I read, the plumbing before the pump along with the pump have to be able to sustain very high pressures which sounds like a catastrophe in waiting. The solution might be to deploy some sort of pressure relief valve to bleed surplus pressure back to the storage tank before the iron filter.

I really like the idea of having a constant pressure or at least as near to it as possible.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/applications_1.html

LLigetfa · Sep 26, 2009

seige101 said:
Just some random thoughts here.

Would the booster pump not try to draw water through the filter faster than the filter can process it?

Yes, it would but it would create a larger pressure differential across the filter. I theorize that having a larger pressure differential will allow for more gpm flow.

seige101 said:
What about putting a pressure tank in line after the filter? This way you have a reserve of all ready filtered water.

I did consider that but the second pressure tank would never achieve more pressure than the current tank which is limited because of the micronizer.

I have considered a complete second conventional jet pump and pressure tank after the iron filter as a last resort but am being seduced by the notion of a constant pressure system. Granted, I could deploy a pressure regulator after the second system and set the regulator to the kick-in pressure on the second pump.

Valveman · Sep 27, 2009

A micronizer doesn’t really care what the pressure is. It only works when the volume of water is sufficient to cause a pressure differential across the device, so the venturi can draw in air. The higher the presser, the less volume your pump produces. When the pressure gets high enough, and the volume from the pump gets low enough, the micronizer no longer draws in air.

A larger well pump that produces more volume at higher pressure would make the micronizer work from 30 PSI, all the way up to 50 PSI. However, this will cause the well pump to cycle on and off excessively, because your pump will then produce much more volume than you are using.

Adding a Cycle Stop Valve to a larger well pump will keep the pressure constant and prevent the pump from cycling. Although when the system gets up to the pressure held constant by the CSV, the volume of water produced will be determined by the amount being used at that time.

In other words, with a 30/50 pressure switch, and the CSV set for 45 PSI, the tank will drain from 50 to 30 when water is first used. Then when the pump starts at 30 PSI, the volume produced by the pump will be at maximum, and the micronizer will be working until the pressure gets to 45 PSI. At that point the CSV will restrict the volume from the pump to match the amount being used. If the house is using enough water, the micronizer will continue to draw in air. If the house is not using enough water, the micronizer will not be drawing in air. If the house is no longer using any water at that point, the CSV will restrict the flow from the pump to 1 GPM, and the pressure tank will be topped off from 45 to 50 PSI, and the pump will be shut off.

This normally works ver well, as the first 3/4 of the tank is filled at high enough volume to make the micronizer draw in air. Then the CSV tops off the last 1/4 of the tank at 1 GPM and the pump shuts off. For intermittent uses around the house such as showers, washing machines, toilets, etc., this adds sufficient air to make the system work properly. When there are long term uses of water that are more than 1 GPM, such as sprinklers, the CSV will match the volume being used, and wether the micronizer is drawing in air or not depends on how much water the sprinklers are using. You just have to use enough sprinklers at one time to make the micronizer function.

30/50 is very low pressure for a house, especially when running through a filter. I agree 60 PSI constant would be much better. However, you will need a larger pump that can produce enough volume for the micronizer to work at the higher pressure. Then having a CSV to maintain constant pressure and keep the pump from cycling during long term uses of water becomes more important. With a larger pump, I would set the pressure switch to 45/65, and set the CSV to 60 PSI constant.

A booster pump after the pressure tank could increase the house pressure but, will not increase the volume through the micronizer. Increasing the size of the well pump will do both. Either way I do not recommend the MQ for a booster. I find dumpsters full of these behind the pump supply houses because they have so many problems. (See attached picture) If you need a booster, a regular jet pump is more dependable, longer lasting, and less expensive.

LLigetfa · Sep 27, 2009

Thanks Valveman, for the excellent response and the heads up on the MQ boosters in the Dumpster. Yes, I understand how the micronizer is pressure/flow limited based on differential across the venturi. That said, I would have to replace the 11 year old Goulds 10 gpm pump in the well at considerable cost. My water guy wants way too much ($650) for the MQ and I may as well put that toward a bigger pump in the well.

I considered running a $300 shallow well jet pump as a booster in tandem with the Goulds and slave the two together to run from one pressure switch. I need to do the math on the current draw whether the two pumps can run off one 220V/15A breaker. Then I need to determine what the differential pressure would be between the two pumps to right-size the jet pump. My thought was to put the micronizer between the two pumps where the pressure is lower but I'm concerned how much the added air will reduce the jet pump's draw. If it doesn't work out well, I could always move it to the other side.

Neither a new pump in the well nor a jet pump in tandem before the iron filter will do anything for the flow related pressure drop across the iron filter but having higher pressure before the filter will produce more flow. If I put the jet pump after the filter and didn't slave it to the Goulds, I would need a bladder tank which would buffer the demand. My other concern with any booster pump is noise inside the house.

Lastly, something I did not consider is the flow rate of my well. 11 years ago when I dropped the Goulds into the 55 foot deep well, the static water table was down 15 feet and we only tested at 5 gpm draw to satisfy code and the banker. As the Goulds draws down the reserve in the well casing, it has to lift much higher resulting in reduced flow for the micronizer. Adding much more gpm may exceed the well's capacity to recover.

When I sank the mud well, it went through 50 feet of clay and found 5 feet of gravel next to the bedrock. The well driller tested the flow rate for the banker/code using a 5 gpm pump. When I dropped my 10 gpm pump in the well, the additional flow caused mud to collapse in the well which plugged up the Goulds. I had to get the well guy back to pump a few hundred gallons of water into the well to push back the mud and then he pushed a 5 gal pail of crushed stone down the well to help hold the mud back. I don't know how much the mud affected the gpm capacity of the Goulds and am concerned that a new higher gpm pump might suck more mud in. This is really getting complicated.

Valveman · Sep 27, 2009

The well condition is the first thing to consider. You can’t pump more volume (GPM) unless the well can produce it. Sometimes even when the well can produce more volume, it comes at a price like water quality problems with mud and other things. You will need to test for the total volume stored in the well and the recovery rate. If these are sufficient to meat the needs of the system, then replacing the 11 year old well pump with a new larger pump would be a good option. You can also run a jet pump in tandem with the sub from the same pressure switch. But be sure and put the micronizer after the jet pump. My experience tells me that as soon as you add a jet pump, the well pump will need replacing, and you will wish you had just started with a new larger sub pump.

If either the wells volume or recovery is not sufficient to meet the needs of the system, then a storage tank (cistern) and booster pump would be the next option. You may not even need a very large cistern to be able to have all the water pressure and volume you would like. You can even use another sub in the cistern for a booster so the noise is not an issue. But it will take a little room for the equipment.

olskool53 · Sep 28, 2009

LLigetfa said:
I'm on well water that has a lot of iron and so have an iron filter. The downside of it is that the micronizer only works at lower pressures and there is also a pressure drop across the filter bed at higher flow rates. From what I read, the answer is to use a domestic water pressure booster pump. My water equipment supplier suggests the Grundfos MQ pump but he's not being very specific about what pressure at what flow rate I can expect. From what I've been able to Google, it doesn't actually regulate the pressure and that I would have to add a pressure regulator after the pump.

Anyone with domestic water pressure booster pump experience care to chime in?

The downfall to oxidizing iron with a micronizer is short bed life and plugged piping due to oxidized ferric iron. Before you add a booster or a CP system the first thing I would do is remove ALL piping from the micronizer to the filter and clean it out or replace it. I have seen 1" copper so plugged you can barly fit a pencil through it. If you find this type of iron depositing I would recommended removing the tank Tee also and clean the 90 at the bottom of the tank. You didn't mention what type of iron filter Birm, agg, carbon, or GS? If the filter has not been rebeded in the last year or 2 you might need a rebed. I have customers who need there filters rebeded yearly along with having to remove and clean all piping, unfortunately thats part of a oxidizing system.
I would not install a booster, and if you install a CP pump system and your pressure/volume loss is due to iron laden pipes and filter bed obviously things will be the same. The MQ by the way is JUNK!

Question: What is your raw water Iron, Manganese, ph and TDS levels?

LLigetfa · Sep 28, 2009

I just had my water guy rebed the Paterson iron filter with media they call Pumicite, a glassy aluminum silicate mineral from volcanic ash. The iron filter is rated for 6 gpm service flow and 4 gpm backwash flow.

While we had the iron filter out, we verified the flow rate of the feed line from the aerating tank. I have an outside hose bib Tee'd off the feed line. One of my garden hoses is connected to this iron water bib and I use it for applications where I don't care about the iron but need more pressure. I have three other hose bibs connected to the filtered side to feed soaker hoses and for hand watering foundation plants where I don't want the iron to clog the soakers and stain the white siding. I also have hose bibs for hot and cold softened water.

I periodically drain the crud from the aerating tank, then I flush the feed line by overriding the pressure switch, raising the pressure to 70lbs, and open the outside hose bib. After that, I start a backwash cycle with the pressure at 70 lbs. As the pump cannot sustain the 70 lbs pressure at a continuous 4 gpm, I stop and start the flow throughout the backwash cycle to shake up the bed.

All this because the wife complains her huge soaker tub takes too long to fill. Mind you, I would enjoy more pressure in the shower too.

olskool53 · Sep 28, 2009

The vent or aerator tank is where I usually see the most pressure loss. Did you try boosting your tank pressure to 50/70 psi? How is the pressure and volume at the untreated sill cock compared to the treated faucets?

LLigetfa · Sep 28, 2009

The micronizer is a foot away from the tank and that foot of line is not constricted. There is no pressure loss between the micronizer and the tank and probably none between the tank and the iron filter but I don't have a gauge at the filter. What I have is a Tee a foot from the filter where I previously had a hose bib which I relocated to the filtered side. I put a full flow 1/2" ball valve in its stead with a short 3/4" line to the drain so that I can flush the line periodically. I have very good flow volume a foot before the filter, and poor volume a foot after it.

The pump kicks in at 30 psi and by 40 psi, the micronizer stops drawing air. I set the pump to kick out at 50, so less than half of the water is not aerated in the stream but there probably is enough oxygen in the water tank to go around. If I change it to kick in at 50 and out at 70, I would not get any aeration at all. Pressure and volume at the untreated hose bib is good. At the treated hose bib it isn't. The issue is pressure drop related to flow restriction across the iron filter.

Now the actual gpm of flow and the pressure drop has not ever been measured so we cannot quantify the degradation. The feeling was that the pressure drop has been getting gradually worse over time. I could often restore the flow rate by doing the above metioned high pressure manual backwash but over the years was getting diminishing returns. I think what happened was the screen at the base of the pickup tube gradually clogged with iron and minerals. When they rebedded the tank, they cleaned the screen. We noticed a marked improvement when we got it back, but on the first programmed backwash something went wrong and the valve body filled with Pumicite holding the backwash valves open and restricting the backwash flow to a trickle. I took the top off to pull the valves and sucked out the Pumicite with a shop vac. I told my water guy about what happened and he wants to completely disassemble the head to make sure there is no Pumicite where it should not be.

All this said, it was never ideal, only tolerable at best. My water guy is going to come over and have a look at the iron filter and we will also measure the gpm at different points in the system to determine the best course of action.

olskool53 · Sep 28, 2009

If your micronizer is adjustable 50/70 psi will work fine also the mic does not aerate through the whole cycle. Your filter is obviously the cause of your pressure loss, possibly a broken distributor of most likely a fouled out bed. When was it rebeded and how big is the filter? Aeration fouls beds that's just how it works. I would consider switching to a Birm media, it is lighter, cheaper and flows a a higher rate.

LLigetfa · Sep 28, 2009

Despite adjustments, I cannot get aeration above 40 lbs as the pump cannot sustain the needed flow rate. The manual states that aeration should occur for 2/3 of the pump cycle. I hope they mean volume, not time since the gpm falls off quickly with pressure; the first 3rd of the volume is pumped much faster than the second 3rd and the last 3rd takes much longer.

The original bed lasted 11 years so the new bed should last more than a few weeks. The filter is the smallest they offer, a 9 x 48 tank.

olskool53 · Sep 29, 2009

1 cubic ft filter is very small. I suspect you have a blockage in your control valve or a bad distributor basket in the filter. Is there a gravel base? I recommend a gravel base of at least 6" and a upper distributor basket to prevent blowing bed during backwash. If your control valve is an Autotroll they make an upper basket that snaps in. If its a Fleck or Clack you will need to use a universal basket. You might have a bad timer too causing the filter to not clean?

LLigetfa · Sep 29, 2009

I don't know why it blew bed up into the valve body on the first timed backwash. I wondered if maybe they overfilled it with medium. When the filter was new, I could shine a bright light on the back of the tank and watch the medium boil during backwash but the iron has long since stained the inside and it's no longer translucent.

Yes, it has gravel under the medium. The water guy said they meticulously clean the basket with a razor knife to remove mineral buildup. It is an Autotrol Series 160 / 440 Control. The timer works and I've manually advanced the cams as well. I doubt it has an upper basket as it's not on the IPL.

There has always been a pressure drop since it was new which I attribute to sizing it too small. It did degrade over time which was why I paid to have it rebedded. The wife is the one to complain about it the most. I think some of it is the expectation that the rebedding should have made it better than new. She also doesn't understand that due to the cyclic nature of the pump control, the pressure will vary by 20 lbs and at times there may be additional water consumed by the RO filter, her soaker hoses, toilet, etc. She may also be forgetting that I changed some of her hose bibs over to filtered water so she would not see the same pressure on her garden hoses as before. I get the sense the shower may not be putting out as well but there is no night and day difference that I cannot at least in part attribute to the aforementioned other sources of consumption.

We also recently replaced the water heater and the new one wasn't set as hot as the old one was. This means that there is less cold water added to the mix when drawing a bath or shower. I just cranked it up a bit yesterday.

olskool53 · Sep 29, 2009

Probably an Autotroll 263? (I am a Autotroll dealer) Honestly you shouldent have a noticeable pressure loss across the filter bed especially if you have 3/4 or 1" plumbing.. Its possible there was an air pocket that was not backwashed out. Question.......did you find bed at your faucets, toilets and tubs? Autotroll controllers usually don't plug up, the backwash valve can stick open due to bed in the valve but the flapper design tends to flush most media out. Let me know how you make out!

LLigetfa · Sep 29, 2009

There is a softener immediately after the iron filter so I doubt the bed media would get past that. I found some bed media in my sump pit that the backwash dumps to. I have a 16 foot run of 3/4" copper between the aerating tank and iron filter.

My water guy stood me up today but I ran some flow tests, timing how long it takes to fill a 5 gal bucket. I ran a pump cycle before each test so they both had the same starting pressure. From the unfiltered side, the bucket filled in 50 seconds so that equates to 6 gpm. On the filtered side it took 2 and 1/2 minutes which equates to 2 gpm. The iron filter was last backwashed 5 and 1/2 days ago.

olskool53 · Sep 30, 2009

Thats LOW volume. Both filters should have bypasses? First bypass the Softener and see how the pressure is......if its the same then bypass the Iron filter if its still the same you have a blockage in your piping.

LLigetfa · Sep 30, 2009

Neither have bypasses and the softener was not on the path for the test. As I mentioned before, I have outside hose bibs both before and after the filter. The bib after the filter is before the softener. There is no blockage in the piping to the filter.

Valveman · Sep 30, 2009

A Goulds 10GS05 pumping from 50' deep should deliver 14 GPM at 30 PSI , and 10 GPM as the pressure increases to 50 PSI.

LLigetfa · Sep 30, 2009

That's good to know but that number would be without the restriction imposed by the in-line prefilter and micronizer. I don't know how many gpm can flow through the prefilter and micronizer. A test I have planned is to shut off the house main after the tank, drain the tank all the way down, then run the pump for 60 seconds and measure how many gallons are in the tank. That won't give me the gpm at 50 psi but will give me an idea of the top end gpm.

When I tore apart my system and had the iron filter and softener rebedded, I also cleaned the prefilter before the micronizer. BTW, I didn't like the small prefilter that came with the system so I put in a much larger one designed for sprinkler systems as I was worried it too would restrict flow. The prefilter was half full with fine black crud that stained my hands. I don't know what it is but it was sure hard to wash off.

I heard that the micronizer should be installed as close as possible to the tank in a straight section of pipe, that there should not be any turbulence before or after it. I do have a straight section before it, but it screws directly into a tank Tee with the tap off for the pressure switch/gauge. The water flows through the straight part of the Tee (does not make a 90 degree turn), while the side port has a plug in it.

LLigetfa · Oct 1, 2009

Oh man... time to eat crow. My water guy came over and said what you guys did, that there was blockage in the line. Remember that I had mentioned putting a ball valve on a Tee a foot away from the iron filter. From that ball valve, I ran clear plastic line to the sump pit but had not actually measured the gpm. He has a pretty good ear and could tell that when I opened the ball valve that it would start strong and drop off fast. So, I was going to prove him wrong and I measured the gpm. I was shocked to get only 2 gpm, the same as on the filtered side.

So... I jacked up the pressure and started banging on the 3/4 copper line and watched the water turn brown through the clear plastic drain line. The more I banged, the darker it got and suddenly the flow took right off. After that I ran the filter through a backwash cycle and then measured the gpm again at the filtered hose bib. What was 2 gpm is now 6. It's still a mystery how and why Pumicite clogged up the valves.

I have to go take a shower now and try to get rid of that taste of crow. I think the wife will be happy with the result and so my hopes of a booster pump are likely dashed.

olskool53 · Oct 6, 2009

No worries man!

Domestic Water Pressure Booster Pump

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