What would you do?

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drumbum

Member
Aug 12, 2009
71
mid tenn
What would you do if you purchased a top of the line chimney liner, from a supposed reputable dealer on line, 316 ti , and received a lower grade liner 316L? I need to make a decision quick so all input welcome.
 
Is it installed?
 
I don't know the consequence of the lower grade liner - sure someone else will. If it's significant enough for you to be concerned, pull it out, give the shop some s^%. If it's okay, complete the install, get some money back from the shop, give them some s^%. I would call them now anyway - they may apologize, honest mistake, etc, etc, and mak it right for you.
 
Have you contacted the dealer on this? I just read up a little on the subject and I would indeed consider it nontrivial for them to have shipped a 316L liner at 316Ti price. They are not the same animal. You get better high-temp durability w/ the Titanium added to the alloy.

Still, the 316L liner oughta be ok, since it (should!) just have a thicker wall to make up for it. Not like you have any actual load on this during use (so high-temp mechanical properties are really only mildly interesting), but there is always the risk for metal fatigue to make itself evident during future cleanings. Not that I think the presence of Ti does a ton for you in fatigue once its back at room temp, mind you.

But if there is ANY price difference, they oughta cover that w/ you. good luck!
 
Yeah I'm pretty tickled so far. Asked the owner why the liner would have a UL sticker from a company that doesn't make a 316ti liner; played dumb. Asked if there was any chance a customer pulled a switcheroo on him, No chance. How do I know this is 316ti? You'll just have to take my word for it. Ebay buy it now price difference 316L $455 316ti $569. Attitude just seems to be so you caught me, SO WHAT
 
Well, that is a tough one. I'd first try to get past the thought of 316L as a 'lower grade'. It's simply 'different' as I'll explain below. Then I would ask what you're basing the difference in steel chemistry on? Is it the thickness of the liner or some label? My thought is we obviously can't 'see' the alloy of the steel without a special testing so maybe it's just mislabeled. The "L" liner should be pretty thick and heavy while the "Ti" liner will almost seem like aluminum dryer duct from home depot. I think the main advantage of the Ti liner is the ability to use less steel and make a more flexible product, lower shipping costs, etc. The small addition of titanium lets the mfr use ~1/4 as much steel which is cheaper. Probably what I would do:

1 - Contact the seller and verify you ordered the 316Ti and were shipped 316L. Note their mistake and see if they would swap the liner at no cost to you, if you really want the Ti liner.

2 - If they won't do that, I would see if they are willing to refund any price difference between the two liners. Though I would caution, I see at least one web site which has a variety of 316Ti, 316L and 304L liners.

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Chimney/Chimney-Liners

The 316Ti is shown for wood, pellet, gas and coal while the 304L is shown as wood and pellet, 316L is shown for gas oil and coal. (if it can handle coal, it can probably handle just about anything) Additionally, 316Ti is the cheapest liner, followed by 304L and 316L being the most expensive. So if your supposition is true, you actually have a [substantially] more expensive liner than what you paid for.

Lastly, 316Ti / 316L difference is not the end of the world - either one would be perfectly acceptable. IMHO, the main benefit is if you do have a chimney fire, the Ti will help prevent the precipitation of what are called 'chromium carbides'. Basically you get the steel hot enough the alloying elements can start to move around and make new compounds. Once this happens, the stainless steel is depleted in chromium because it's now locked up with the carbon - which reduces it's corrosion resistance and the carbides are brittle which may make the liner more prone to cracking. BUT - if you never have a flue fire never really need the titanium for stabilization at those temperatures - and you've got a thinner/cheaper liner doing the job for all that time.
 
I don't know enough to say anything about preference between the two, or whether or not you should change the install. BUT....IMHO i don't care if you actually thought you were getting a 30ga steel chimney that was rusty, if you wanted to pay more for that rusty thin chimney and they sent you one that was listed elsewhere for less, then you are either entitled to the chimney you thought you were buying, or you are entitled to the difference in price for what they sent you.

If you don't get the new chimney, or the money ASAP, then I'd be disputing this.
 
drumbum said:
What would you do if you purchased a top of the line chimney liner, from a supposed reputable dealer on line, 316 ti , and received a lower grade liner 316L? I need to make a decision quick so all input welcome.

Were you charged for the top-shelf stuff and the middle shelf stuff was delivered? If that's the case I'd ask/demand the difference in $ back and just roll with the cheap stuff.
 
Cozy heat I've been in contact with dealer, why would I trust them to send the right liner if they didn't the first time. Not sure I agree with the big weight difference between two stainless liners of the same thickness
 
You said you got the liner from an online dealer. I assume you paid with a credit card for your purchase. If you don't get a good resolution from the seller, dispute it with your card company. I have never done it, but others I know have disputed with card companies regarding a purchases with good results.
 
drumbum said:
Cozy heat I've been in contact with dealer, why would I trust them to send the right liner if they didn't the first time. Not sure I agree with the big weight difference between two stainless liners of the same thickness

Well, I guess that boils down to whether you think this was a simple, honest mistake - or the dealer is specifically trying to commit fraud. I would have to believe the former as every indication I have, the 316L liner is much more expensive than 316Ti.

Second, I'm not saying there is a difference in weight between two liners of equal thickness. I'm saying the 316Ti liner would be ~ .006 inches thick, while a 316L would be about .024 - .030. 4-5 times the thickness, hence 4-5 times the weight. I don't think you can get any liner except 316Ti as thin as .006 inches. So I have to go back to the first question - what are you basing the alloy designation on?
 

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Cozy heat, I think your mistaken. M-flex .006 316L, National Chimney Supply Inc. Less expensive than 316ti. Paid for 316ti, got 316L. Is it your stance that it's OK to bait and switch?
 
Are you 100% sure you got the wrong one? If so, I don't know what the big deal is, you tell the seller they can refund you the difference in price between the two, they can take it back, or they can swap it out for the right one. If the seller won't do any of those, then you dispute with the credit card company and end up getting a free liner.
 
Well, I'm a little fuzzy on how I am mistaken in posting facts and asking questions. But since you've identified the actual liner and manufacturer, I took a look at their web page:

http://www.nationalchimneysupply.com/MFlexLiners.aspx

Our M-Flex liner, available in 316L/316TI Stainless Steel is designed to reline existing chimneys or be used in new construction. Manufactured in the highest grade mill certified alloys. ...

They do make this read a bit unclear. Generally the way these are made is the actual liner is 316Ti and the additional components - cap, banding, clamps, T's etc are 316L - hence the 316L/316Ti designation.

I think this web page sorts it out a little better:

http://www.chimneylinerdirect.com/product/Flex-King-8X30-316ti-006-Insert-Kit/369.html

Stainless Steel Lining Kit. Includes: Cap, Top Plate, Liner, Appliance Connector, and Installation Instructions. This kit is specially designed for fireplace inserts. The liner is made from top of the line 316ti .006 inch thick stainless steel. The components are made from high quality 316L stainless steel.

Obviously, "bait and switch" is not alright. (though if someone wanted to bait me with a $400 paper thin liner and switch me to a $1200 liner 5 times thicker - I might take them up on the offer) Unless one of the dealers on the forum can chime in and definitively prove different, I'm not aware of any actual liners which are 316L AND .006 inches thick. You either get .006" 316Ti or ~.024-.030" 316L or 304L .

All that aside, in my semi-professional metallurgical opinion, the Ti addition is a bit of metallurgical hocus pocus anyway. True it does prevent bad things from happening when the steel gets to high temperature. But why is that needed? Because the steel is so thin to begin with! If you take a propane torch and point it at a knife blade, that thing will be red hot in just a few seconds. Point the same torch at the top of your wood stove and I doubt you'd ever get it to glow at all. More thermal mass helps dissipate the heat and keep the temperature much lower. It's almost as if the manufacturers created an artificial problem by making the liner metal 1/5th the thickness, then came up with a 'premium' alloy to handle the high heat in the thin metal. So now everyone thinks the high heat 'premium' alloy must be the best thing when in fact, it's a cheaper, thinner product. Equal thickness to equal thickness, yes, the Ti is a superior alloy for high heat, but if the only reason it's there is because the product is 1/5 the thickness - any advantage is nullified.

Again, just my .02 - and I'm not trying to support any specific manufacturer by posting these links, discussing their product, etc - or say National is 'right' or 'wrong' in what they've done. I have no vested interest in any mfr discussed here. Simply trying to relay information and clarify the situation. The bottom line as best I know it - if you have a thin .006 inch liner, it is 316Ti.
 
Now maybe I've been unclear. I purchased a liner from a company that advertised it as .006 316ti , the components are forever flex, olympia chimney supply. Competitor sells advertised .006 316L M-flex for less. My liner Has a UL sticker saying CB M-FLEX national chimney. I see nowhere on their website that they offer 316ti
 
316L does come in.005 and .006 and thicker on the heavy flex. At this point its not a matter of is it OK or did you get a better deal which this gentleman did not at .006. This is a clear case of misrepresentation. Robert give this reseller both barrels, because lets face it your not the only one this has been done to and you can help making it the last. The guy saying that there is no such thing as a .0063 316L is totally mistaken, .005,.006 liners are made in 316Ti, 316L, AL29-4C and 304L . We manufacture Flex King Chimney Liner System
 

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