Trouble with new basement woodstove -- part 3

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
  • Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
Status
Not open for further replies.

dave11

Minister of Fire
Hearth Supporter
May 25, 2008
633
Western PA
Some of you have been helping me get this new NC-30 up to speed. It's in my basement workshop, and the problem has been maintaining an active fire with the door fully closed. Fire always burns great with the door open even a fraction.

When we left off, BrotherBart had stated the problem was either wood not fully seasoned, or the way I was building the fire.

Yesterday I went to a stack of maple sitting for almost three years in my shed, where it has never seen rain or snow. I split some of the larger splits, tested with the j-lite in the middle of the split, parallel to grain, at half-inch depths, and got readings between 15-20%.

I used those same splits to build a fire today, and did see some improvement. I put two splits N/S on the bottom, kindled between them, then added two splits E/W. I used smaller splits then last time, as it seems folks here have found that helps. Attached is a pic about 45 minutes later. The fire is going pretty well. Leaving a larger space between the bottom splits seemed to help, as I could see air getting sucked fast in between them. Temps along the sides of the stove are 450-480 or so. Temp at the pipe exiting the wall 240-250. The door is fully sealed.

However, the air inlet was fully open the whole time, and I never once thought I needed to close it. This is in contrast to BrotherBart, who has the same stove and a similar setup, though I'm not sure if his NC-30 is in a basement like mine is. He needs to actively restrain his fire.

During the mid-burn, there was zero smoke coming out of the chimney.

I thought though that the problem was mostly solved, and would fiddle more with the size of the splits and the geometery of the fire.

As the fire was dying though, to mostly red coals, I cracked the door just a hair, and I mean literally just a hair, barely enough to notice. Flames erupted throughout the coals, and pieces of wood I thought were dead started burning again.

Additionally, the flames that did appear were being whipped wildly backward.

Now, I might be new to all this woodburning, but this just doesn't seem right to me. The discussion this far has centered on either the draft being inadequate in the flue, or the wood not being seasoned, despite my measurements. I don't see how either of these is consistent with what I see the stove do. It seems to me that the flue must be working quite well, or else the air wouldn't be sucked so strongly into the stove with the door open just a hair. Similarly, unseasoned wood won't magically become seasoned when I open the door just a bit.

I'm not suggesting that there's a problem with the stove's design, at least not for most people. As BB points out, many here are using it successfully. I would question though if the stove is designed a bit too finicky for air, and my situation just doesn't cut it. The last option is that there is a partial blockage in the air passages, but nearly all of it is inaccessible to check.

Any other advice still appreciated.
 

Attachments

  • Trouble with new basement woodstove -- part 3
    fire1.jpg
    21.7 KB · Views: 545
How well sealed is your house?

Do you have a OAK (Outdoor Air Kit) installed on this stove?

If you open a window near the stove do you see improvement?

Sorry if these questions were already answered, just reading part3.
 
MishMouse said:
How well sealed is your house?

Do you have a OAK (Outdoor Air Kit) installed on this stove?

If you open a window near the stove do you see improvement?

Sorry if these questions were already answered, just reading part3.

No OAK yet. Thought I would do that one day. But the basement itself isn't very tight, and opening the window nearby at ground level makes no difference.

Even if it were a problem with negative pressure in the basement though, I don't think opening the door to the stove would make a difference. If the draft is strong with the door cracked open it shouldn't decrease or change just because I seal the door. Seems to me the problem is one of flow, not pressure.
 
dave, if we could just figure a way to get more air into that firebox I believe you would be happy. I am lost on this one though. I'd be calling the company for sure.
 
Is your shed fully enclosed? That can really inhibit the wood drying. Give a try with one of those bundles of store bought firewood and see what happens. One more thing to check for the placement of the ceramic board above the tubes:

FIBER BOARD: CARE & MAINTENANCE

THIS WOOD HEATER UTILIZES NEW TECHNOLOGY, WHICH INCLUDES CERAMIC FIBER BOARD THAT IS LOCATED IN THE FIREBOX, AND RESTS ON TOP OF FOUR STAINLESS STEEL TUBES. DO NOT REMOVE THIS CERAMIC FIBER BOARD!!! IT IS A NECESSARY COMPONENT OF THE FIREBOX. ALSO PLEASE NOTE: THE CERAMIC FIBER BOARD MAY BECOME LOOSE DURING INITIAL SHIPPING. BE SURE IT IS LYING FLAT, ON TOP OF THE STAINLESS STEEL TUBES, AND PUSHED ALL THE WAY TO THE BACK OF THE UNIT, WITH NO GAPS BETWEEN IT AND THE BACK WALL.
 
I see 2 other heating devices in your signature.
How does the NC-30 burn when these are running?
As compared to how it burns when they are not running?

Did you have your draft inspected?
Opening the door to the stove and it fires up doesn't really mean you have a strong draft.
Typically the stove will draw air from anywhere it can get it.

I had a Drolet that had draft issues, that had similar air starvation problems due to a clogged chimney cap from burning less then seasoned wood.
 
Backwoods Savage said:
dave, if we could just figure a way to get more air into that firebox I believe you would be happy. I am lost on this one though. I'd be calling the company for sure.

Part of the problem is this is my first stove. So I'm also wondering if this is how the stove is supposed to be.

I did call Englander a while back, and they assured me there was nothing wrong with the stove. Told me my flue must not be right. But that makes no sense to me, for reasons already mentioned.
 
tutu_sue said:
Is your shed fully enclosed? That can really inhibit the wood drying. Give a try with one of those bundles of store bought firewood and see what happens. One more thing to check for the placement of the ceramic board above the tubes:

FIBER BOARD: CARE & MAINTENANCE

THIS WOOD HEATER UTILIZES NEW TECHNOLOGY, WHICH INCLUDES CERAMIC FIBER BOARD THAT IS LOCATED IN THE FIREBOX, AND RESTS ON TOP OF FOUR STAINLESS STEEL TUBES. DO NOT REMOVE THIS CERAMIC FIBER BOARD!!! IT IS A NECESSARY COMPONENT OF THE FIREBOX. ALSO PLEASE NOTE: THE CERAMIC FIBER BOARD MAY BECOME LOOSE DURING INITIAL SHIPPING. BE SURE IT IS LYING FLAT, ON TOP OF THE STAINLESS STEEL TUBES, AND PUSHED ALL THE WAY TO THE BACK OF THE UNIT, WITH NO GAPS BETWEEN IT AND THE BACK WALL.

The shed is open to the air, and I checked the wood with a quality moisture meter. 15-20%.

I did check the ceramic boards as well when I installed it. They were intact and in place.
 
MishMouse said:
I see 2 other heating devices in your signature.
How does the NC-30 burn when these are running?
As compared to how it burns when they are not running?

Did you have your draft inspected?
Opening the door to the stove and it fires up doesn't really mean you have a strong draft.
Typically the stove will draw air from anywhere it can get it.

I had a Drolet that had draft issues, that had similar air starvation problems due to a clogged chimney cap from burning less then seasoned wood.

The 30-NC is in the basement, the others are upstairs. They both draft and vent to the outside, so they can have no effect on the 30-NC.

I'm not sure I can agree with you about the draft being uncertain. If I crack open the door, and feel air rush into the stove, and smoke never spills into the room, I think it's reasonable to assume the flue is drafting properly. The exhaust can't go anywhere else but up the flue.
 
When you load the stove, are you putting the wood no more than a finger width of space between?
 
I'm wondering if the air intake is either blocked or warped or crusted over in some way which is rendering the stove starved for some air.
Does that make any sense?
 
My first fire (when everything is stone cold) is very near what you are describing. My draft situation is less than ideal since my stove is a nc-30 w/ a 6in exit going into a 7 1/4 in masonry chimney. While I don't have as low a temps as you do, my first burn will usually barely get the chimney thermometer at 18inches up from the stove to about 320 and the stove top may hit 475-500. But, once that gets burned about 1/2 the way down I add wood and the magic happens. The chimney temps jump up to 450 if I keep it wide open and the stove top will get to 700+. The subsequent fires respond the same way (i.e. a morning fire lit from the night's left over coals the next morning) My stove is just slow to start up from dead cold. Perhaps you will see improvement as well as you burn good wood and add wood to hot coals and get yourself in a burn cycle that works for you.

This new stove definately does not start as easy as my old fisher. I have had problems getting other newer stoves going as well. I think their effeciency makes things difficult until they really get some heat in them.

good luck.

pen
 
rsgBJJfighter said:
I'm wondering if the air intake is either blocked or warped or crusted over in some way which is rendering the stove starved for some air.
Does that make any sense?

I'd say it makes perfect sense, and in fact, it's the only explanation that makes sense to me, other than the stove being designed to be too restrictive in air intake for some locations. Problem is there's no way to check other than fish around with a wire, which I've done, but you can only go so far, and with the bends the passages make, it's hard to tell if you're hitting a restriction or not. According to Englander, there's no way to check the passages other than cut the stove apart.

I keep hoping it's something else, which is why I'm still asking for opinions. Lligetta suggested drilling more air intake, but BB took a stand against it. Not sure what other options I'm going to have. Apparently it's a bad idea to just run the stove with the door cracked open even a hair.
 
pen said:
My first fire (when everything is stone cold) is very near what you are describing. My draft situation is less than ideal since my stove is a nc-30 w/ a 6in exit going into a 7 1/4 in masonry chimney. While I don't have as low a temps as you do, my first burn will usually barely get the chimney thermometer at 18inches up from the stove to about 320 and the stove top may hit 475-500. But, once that gets burned about 1/2 the way down I add wood and the magic happens. The chimney temps jump up to 450 if I keep it wide open and the stove top will get to 700+. The subsequent fires respond the same way (i.e. a morning fire lit from the night's left over coals the next morning) My stove is just slow to start up from dead cold. Perhaps you will see improvement as well as you burn good wood and add wood to hot coals and get yourself in a burn cycle that works for you.

This new stove definately does not start as easy as my old fisher. I have had problems getting other newer stoves going as well. I think their effeciency makes things difficult until they really get some heat in them.

good luck.

pen

That's encouraging, and brings up the point again about whether the stove is doing what is supposed to do, or not. I probably should have been more specific in my reports of the temps though. I'm checking them with a surface IR gun. So the flue pipe as it enters the wall is 240 on the surface, which I'm told reflects a flue gas temp close to 475. Are your measurements similar? If my flue gas temps are close to 475, I'm not sure how much higher they should be. Or should they be?
 
Hi Dave I missed the other thread...the only thing I can suggest is to see if there's any difference in the fire if you open the cellar door then the the cellar window. Also if you have trees that are to close to the house and taller than the chimney that can affect the draft as well. Hope you can iron out that problem before it gets cold.

Edit Ok I see you already tried the open window trick OK then...

...next time the stove goes cold clean it out and force some high pressure air threw the vents in the front bottom of the stove ...take your time and pack it with a wet cloth...like a reverse flush. Some bugs could have made a home in there. If you worried about the dust throw a xlarge trash bag like for leaves over the stove.
 
475 internal flue temp is acceptable, but it is not even coming close to the "high" side of acceptable temps.

I am buying in that you have good seasoned wood. You have stated moisture readings that are all within limits, many times.

What happens after the first load chars down and you throw 3 or 4 more medium size splits on the hot coals?? Are the new logs full of flame after about 5 min.? Do the secondaries start to roll flames?? Do the secondaries ever roll flames??
 
man if you get good airflow when you open the door then you dont have a draft problem. You are not getting enough primary air you surely have a blocked airway . Id call englander and have a fit. Build a beast of a fire in that beast of a stove just get it rockin and shut the door see what happens. I think the compresses air thru the primary air holes is a really good idea to. This sounds like a manufacturer defect for sure.
 
savageactor7 said:
Hi Dave I missed the other thread...the only thing I can suggest is to see if there's any difference in the fire if you open the cellar door then the the cellar window. Also if you have trees that are to close to the house and taller than the chimney that can affect the draft as well. Hope you can iron out that problem before it gets cold.

Edit Ok I see you already tried the open window trick OK then...

...next time the stove goes cold clean it out and force some high pressure air threw the vents in the front bottom of the stove ...take your time and pack it with a wet cloth...like a reverse flush. Some bugs could have made a home in there. If you worried about the dust throw a xlarge trash bag like for leaves over the stove.

I'll try it tomorrow when the stove is cool. Fortunately, the stove is just supplemental heat for my workshop, and I can get by without it. But I was really hoping to be rocking with this stove by now.
 
Jags said:
475 internal flue temp is acceptable, but it is not even coming close to the "high" side of acceptable temps.

I am buying in that you have good seasoned wood. You have stated moisture readings that are all within limits, many times.

What happens after the first load chars down and you throw 3 or 4 more medium size splits on the hot coals?? Are the new logs full of flame after about 5 min.? Do the secondaries start to roll flames?? Do the secondaries ever roll flames??

New wood added to the fire seems to catch right away. If the door is cracked just a fraction, the new wood roars, but with the door is closed, it's slower to burn, though it will start burning right away. Just not very briskly. Sort of subdued. The word that comes to mind is "lazy."

As for secondary burn, I've gotta admit I'm still not quite sure what it looks like. I don't think it can happen with the door cracked open, right? If not, then it probably hasn't happened yet, because the fire never really rolls with the door sealed.

Actually, the pic I posted above is about as big as the fire gets with the door sealed. The air inlet is fully open in that pic.
 
Have we missed the obvious? Is the air control lever fully opened or disconnected? Does moving the lever have any effect on the fire? Sounds like the stove is set for a slow burn. This can happen to a new woodburner.
Wayne in NS
 
samandlillie said:
Have we missed the obvious? Is the air control lever fully opened or disconnected? Does moving the lever have any effect on the fire? Sounds like the stove is set for a slow burn. This can happen to a new woodburner.
Wayne in NS

LOL. This has come up on previous discussions of this problem. I'd happily look like a fool if I could only solve this problem that easily.

The air inlet is fully out, which is fully open. If I could just somehow open it a bit more...

Closing the air does dampen the fire, and decreases the air flow through the rear vent, so it definitely changes something.

It is non-adjustable, according to Englander.
 
Here is a basic example of a secondary burn. This is by no means a "big" one. Instead, for the purpose of the video, I did a small fire that was mostly burned down. Had I done it w/ lots of wood ablaze, then the secondary flames wouldn't be as visible.

You can also hear me closing the primary air down. Yours should sound similarly and you should see a similar result.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


pen
 
Has anyone directed Mike to these threads?
 
pen said:
Here is a basic example of a secondary burn. This is by no means a "big" one. Instead, for the purpose of the video, I did a small fire that was mostly burned down. Had I done it w/ lots of wood ablaze, then the secondary flames wouldn't be as visible.

You can also hear me closing the primary air down. Yours should sound similarly and you should see a similar result.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


pen


Thanks for that movie. No, my stove has never done anything even close to that. Definitely no secondary burn.
 
"Leaving a larger space between the bottom splits seemed to help, as I could see air getting sucked fast in between them. Temps along the sides of the stove are 450-480 or so. Temp at the pipe exiting the wall 240-250. The door is fully sealed."

This is the part that has me scratching my head. This is proof that the "doghouse" air inlets behind the front legs of the stove aren't restricted if air is moving fast between the splits N/S on the bottom of the load.

After you have nothing but hot coals left put two medium splits N/S on in the very center of the stove with a couple of inches of space between them. Then one N/S covering the gap between them but leave about an inch or two of room between the back end of the top split and the back wall of the the stove. The famous N/S cave burn. On a bed of hot coals if that cave burn doesn't take off something is seriously wrong. If that primary air rod is pulled all the way out. In fact even if it isn't because that air coming out of the doghouse isn't controlled by the primary control.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.