How much money saved?

LLigetfa said:

Now, to be fair you need to calculate what it would have cost to heat with oil to the same temperature as you heat with wood.

Click to expand...

Saw was a gift
Wood gets dropped off by a tree service
Save ~100/month Nov-Mar on the Gas/Electric Bill (which kept the house at 70 compared to 78 with wood so you could probably double the savings)

So figure ~1000/year. Stove, pipe, with tile/stainless wall shield and install ~3300. I should just about break even at the end of this season (not counting processing labor which I count as part of my fitness regimen).

Thank you Dennis for initiating this thread. It forced me to created a report I can also use in the future.

APPROXIMATE WOOD HEAT CONVERSION ROI REPORT

rounded approximations
previous full yr heat with oil period used: 2006-07
wood heat measured start date: 10/1/2007
wood heat measured end date: 3/31/2009
6 mo heat season
---------------------------------------------------------


BASELINE (oil)
-previous full yr heat with oil cost (2006-07 800 gal @ 2.35): $1800
-avg oil mo cost: $300


INITIAL WOOD SYSTEM PROCUREMENT
-stove (free used): $0
-one cord wood: $250
-pipe (new pipe I installed): $500
-hearth (free floor, concrete wall): $25
-woodbox (I built): $50
-woodsheds (only if could not be used as shed, includes tarps): $50
-chainsaws and accessories less sharpenings: $675
---------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL INITIAL PROCUREMENT: $1550 / 2 years = $775 per year


ANNUAL WOOD SYSTEM COST
-annual (2 yr avg) oil cost as secondard system when heating with wood: $150
-chainsaw chains: $50
-axes etc.: $50
-fuel for truck: $400
-wear & tear on truck (junk yard truck I built): $0
-wood (lots & lots of time but all scrounged): $0
-electrcity to run window fan (no clue how to estimate): $50
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL ANNUAL COST: $700
TOTAL MO EXPENSE: $120


TOTAL 2 YR COST TO DATE (before 2009-10 season): $1550 + $1400 = $2950

BREAKEVEN & FUTURE SAVINGS
-breakeven date: 2/1/2009 (total wood heat expense @ 2950 / avg oil cost mo 300) = 10 mo
-estimated savings mo (after breakeven date): $180 (avg oil mo 300 - avg wood mo 120) = 180
-estimated savings yr: $1080

I bought my Enerzone and chimney at cost, being in the business. But at retail, you have a $2000 stove, $500 chimney thru ranch roof and a hearth pad at $300, self install. $2800+tax for 3000 +/- total. I buy $700 in wood, for the season, cut split and delivered. If I had to heat my home with fuel oil at $2.50 per gallon x 600 gallons I am saving about $800 per year. When I am burning wood my furnace NEVER goes on unless except for 2 days around Thanksgiving and 5 for Christmas when we are out of town. So for me, without having to buy saws and splitters, if I bought my stove at retail, the stove would pay itself off in 4 years or less. I am heating a 1600 sf house with almost no insulation.

Next year, if I can afford it, I will probably reinsulate and try a smaller, more efficient stove. Probably a Hearthstone Heritage.

Aside from going green and saving on heat, I just love having a wood fire going. Just got to keep the wife ok with the idea of a wood stove with the new baby in the house

Just wanted to add, it's also nice to have the house 72+ degrees during the below zero wind chill lake effect central NY snow.

My propane is used for heat only. Last year it was about $1100.00 to fill my tank. That wouldnt get me through a year. My wood stove cost me about $2300.00 by the time I installed it all. I've got over 2 years worth of wood ( oak and hickory ) that a friend of mine helped me cut and split free. I bought a $300.00 chainsaw. I cover my wood with free rubber from a roof. I figure my wood stove should pay for itself in a few years........

All of my equipment has been long paid for, so it doesn't figure into the equation for me.

Oil is going for $2.50/gallon here in New England.

I have never had the guts to heat a full winter on just oil. My guestimate is that it will take about 1100 gals to heat 2900 sq ft the whole winter. That's $2.50x1100 = $2750 for the oil.

This year I'm burning 1/2 a truckload of hard maple logs, cost: $500.
Labor = Free. Cutting and splitting the wood is a pleasure.
200 gals oil supplemental heat = $500.

2750-500 = $1750 savings per year.

This is not taking into account that the house is warmer with the wood.

We bought our stove at the end of the season last year for 50% off. With stove install, pipe, tools, and safety equipment (big fire extinguisher, CO2 and new smoke alarms) I have right at $1000 invested. We had an ice storm 2 years ago around Xmas time with no power for 6 days and darn near went broke running a generator. Not sure how long our return on investment will be but I know that with 5 acres of trees we will never be cold again.

Economy of scale. My guess is 8 cords would heat me all year + DHW, and I could probably swing it here in Southern NH for $1000/yr if I could grapple loads down my driveway, and I can't so that's that. Otherwise I'm looking at cords or scrounging and that's going to get tight once oil shoots to $5/gallon. During Nov '08 peole were trying to push "seasoned" cordwood for close to $400.

Cost of the chainsaw: $350 approximately (gift from my wife)

Cost of the splitter: $1,500 approximately

Cost of the stove and chimney: $3,000 approximately

Cost to build the woodshed: $800 approximately

Misc. costs (gas, oil, cleaning supplies, etc.): $250 approximately


Staying toasty warm all winter long regardless of how much oil prices rise and regardless of whether or not there is power outage: priceless

I am saving money too. However, between the saw, the stove, having a truck (plus insurance), house insurance for a woodburning, my time and energy, etc. I am not sure that the actual cost savings are significant. Probably, it is more so in the long-term.

It is also about independence and being prepared. I hate paying someone else for something I can do myself. If there is an ice-storm or some other extreme event, I don't have to worry if the electricity is off. Also, I don't have to get a gym membership, to stay in shape.

Over 10 years:

COSTS:
I purchased a new EPA wood-stove for $5000 exactly: -$5000
I burned 250 gallons per year to heat water for household use: $1.90 x 250 x 10 = -$4750
I have my oil burner serviced about once every 3 years, at outrageous cost: $220 x 10/3 = -$733
My new oil burner has depreciated by 50% of its installation cost: 0.50 x $1900 = -$950
I have gone through 3 electric chainsaws: 3 x $59 = -$177
I have used about 10 replacement chains: 10 x $14 = -$140
I have used 3 8lb wood mauls: 3x$16= -$48
I have used 2 wood carrying carts: 2x$110 = -$220
I have used about 50 pairs of gloves: 50x$2 = -$100
Very very rarely I have used a utility trailer to pick up firewood, lets say 500 mi total: 25x$2 = -$50
I cut my finger once, and the bill was $6900 (just a few stitches). Insurance paid 80%: -$1380
Tax savings from the wood stove installation: +$1500
Total: $12,048 to heat my house and water for 10 years

SAVINGS:
To maintain the same level of comfort, I would have to keep my house at 68F, using 1200 gallons per year: $2.10 x 1000 x 10 = $25,200
My oil burner would have depreciated by 100%: 1.0 x $1900 = $1900
Total: $27,100

Total savings = $27100-$12048=$15052, or about $1500 per year
If I had to pay for my firewood, I would probably end up with very little savings.
If I counted the 200 hours or so per year that I spend on this project, my hourly "wage" would be $7.50, which is very low

I do not think that "dollar savings" is the way to go here. I enjoy wood heat, I think of the physical exertion as exercise, and I a very proud that I reduce my overall green house gas emissions by about 50% by burning firewood.

I never really think about the money.

AlexNY said:

Over 10 years:

COSTS:

I cut my finger once, and the bill was $6900 (just a few stitches). Insurance paid 80%: -$1380

Click to expand...

Holy Cow! My daughter was born 11 yrs ago for about $3900 - insurance payed all.

My first year living in my house, we burned $ 5,500 in propane ! I almost had a stroke. And that was with the thermostat turned way down - we froze! I had to find a solution and wood heat was the ticket!

My Stove, pipe, and install cost $ 5000. Last years propane use was $ 500. So in 1 year - my system paid itself off.

I bought 4 cords of wood for the first year. This year, I bought a $ 300 chainsaw and gather my 2010 and 2011 wood for free. I'm set. Oh - I rent my splitter at $ 60 a day. Only rented it twice now. The rest I split by hand. I've really enjoyed the process and I'm looking forward to burning good seasoned wood this year!

I don't think you can count the expenses of machines - because resale is usually high - splitters don't devalue much and neither do saws.

I was saving 800 gallons a year on oil, so the savings were 800 times going rate. I was still using about 700 gallons of oil and 300 of propane a year so I had another stove put in last year. There will be a learning curve for me this year burning two stoves.

szmaine said:

AlexNY said:

Over 10 years:

COSTS:

I cut my finger once, and the bill was $6900 (just a few stitches). Insurance paid 80%: -$1380

Click to expand...

Holy Cow! My daughter was born 11 yrs ago for about $3900 - insurance payed all.

Click to expand...

The cut extended about 1/16 inch into the fingernail, so they told me a hand surgeon would put in the stitches instead of a nurse. That elevated the cost from a few hundred dollars to many thousands of dollars.

My guess is, the clinic was short of money and this was their solution. I expected them to suture the exposed area, and leave the tiny fingernail slice to heal itself. Instead, they did more damage by removing part of the nail so that they could work underneath it. It cost 10x more, it was very painful, and now the fingernail looks funny.

My best advice: don't get sick, and if you do, go see a doctor only as a last resort.

Here are the calculations I did when looking at it. Really, it depends on the price of wood per cord (duh!). This was done with $50/cord of oak, 70% eff, and compared to my actual natural gas bill. Actual savings will be a result of wood usage factor over gas (how often I choose convenience over warmth). Also, this is keeping my house at 68F.

AlexNY said:

szmaine said:

AlexNY said:

Over 10 years:

COSTS:

I cut my finger once, and the bill was $6900 (just a few stitches). Insurance paid 80%: -$1380

Click to expand...

Holy Cow! My daughter was born 11 yrs ago for about $3900 - insurance payed all.

Click to expand...

The cut extended about 1/16 inch into the fingernail, so they told me a hand surgeon would put in the stitches instead of a nurse. That elevated the cost from a few hundred dollars to many thousands of dollars.

My guess is, the clinic was short of money and this was their solution. I expected them to suture the exposed area, and leave the tiny fingernail slice to heal itself. Instead, they did more damage by removing part of the nail so that they could work underneath it. It cost 10x more, it was very painful, and now the fingernail looks funny.

My best advice: don't get sick, and if you do, go see a doctor only as a last resort.

Click to expand...

Thats why all my installers are told to keep duct tape and rubbing alch. on the truck.

RANT ON

i just got a stove & was a little confused when i calculated the cost going in
i have a gas furnace i refuse to turn on, but now,
$2200 later, it doesn't look like it's gonna save me a dime over gas
not to mention the ruts in the front yard,
or the guy getting stuck in it this morning,
or the basebals sized rubber i made out of my right rear tire, doing a burnout, pulling him out.
or the wood i spent all morning gathering from a neighbor's yard, oak will take two years to season i read this afternoon now.
now my neighbor expects me to get the 150 lb tree base pieces i told the cutter yesturday to take with him.
then there's all the hours spent....
30 hours a month, ha, as long as i dont spend more than 30 minutes a day, now that 6 hours are gone today alone.
how much could i make in another hour or the dedicated hours from now on ??
not that i'm busy continuously, but as for the burns, muddy carpet & the condition of my yard now...
here i invested all my $ trying to save $30 a month & the wife gets a new car w insurance.
& i can't qualify for a new mortgage for another year since i've managed to keep my own business going for less than 2 years, (rounded up to the next tax date)
oh well, that's what got us into this mess, loaning to people that have no right getting a mortgage,
although i've had 3 homes w mortgages & have managed to keep my business going for the last year & a half
i'm sure keeping me a higher rate will keep down the risk FANNIMAY could possably incur from some super high risk like me -- NOT
now if i get rid of the stove, i've got a chord of wood for termites & looks

rant OFF

feeling much better now :zip:

the initial cost doesn't really matter to me if steady work keeps coming in.

being a lumberjack off duty isn't bad, i considered all that going in.

i'd just feel a tad better if all my extra energy started paying off somehow.

the truth is i feel better just having more work coming in lately.

i keep asking the wife if it's keeping with here princess status...
it's all installed, plumbed & tested into the hvac, wood in back, chainsaw on it's way...
the wife could really tip the scales either way @ this point.

WIFE: "you need to get a chainsaw, keep it in your van & stfu!"

good excersize and sticking it to the gas man priceless.

EL DRIFTO said:

RANT ON
$2200 later, it doesn't look like it's gonna save me a dime over gas

Click to expand...

That is a pretty good price for an installed woodstove, it should not be too difficult to recoup it.

30 hours a month

Click to expand...

An hour a day is about right for total time to gather, season, and burn firewood ... that assumes you buy nothing, and get all your own wood for free. Try to see it as exercise, saving you on a health club membership. That is what I do.

here i invested all my $ trying to save $30 a month & the wife gets a new car w insurance.

Click to expand...

If you were only spending $30 per month on heat, then you have spectacular insulation in your house and you will only need about 1/2 cord of wood for the winter. You should be able to collect, cut, and split 1/2 cord in a single weekend of work.

now if i get rid of the stove, i've got a chord of wood for termites & looks
rant OFF

Click to expand...

There is no reason to get rid of it before you even try it. I have been heating my house for many years 100% with wood, and I have a huge house that is very poorly insulated. In years past I used 5-6 cords of wood, mostly single season (6-9 months) air dried wood. I never paid for firewood, and I usually spend about 300 hours per year total on this project, including collecting, seasoning, moving, and burning the firewood. I look forward to harvesting/splitting season (March-June) and I look forward to heating season (November - March) each year. During the Summer and Fall, when there is nothing to do, I am a sad panda.

I guess what I am saying is, you may grow to love the labour of firewood. If you do not love it, the money saved (though nice) is probably not enough to justify the effort.

I can say, with all my heart, that two of the happiest, most joy-filled moments of my year are my first fire (usually in November) and the first wonderful smell of a freshly split oak round (early March). I hold the wood up to my face and breath it in. I know, this is my world. And I would not have it any other way.

I may be sugar coating my situation, but this is how I see it form myself.

Tractor/Farmi winch/splitter/wood lot(future residence), all owned by father, but my 20+ years of labor have paid for my usage of them: No cost
Wood: Free

Fireplace insert full install: $4570-1371 credit=$3199
Saw parts and chains: $500
Gas for saw and splitter: ~$30 for year
All trucks and tractors run on Biodiesel or WVO: ~$.30/gal I pay less for transport than I do for gas!! But will call it $30/ year
Total for year 1: $3759

Natural gas: est high usage $400/month shoulder $200/month: $2200/year
Natural gas for hot water tank and kitchen stove: ~$60/month: $360
Fuel savings per year: $1840

After year 1: $3759-1840=$1919 in the hole
year 2 $60 fuel+1919-1840=$139 in the hole
year 3 60 fuel+139-1840= $1641 saved
year 4+ : $1780 saved

I know I didnt account for saw and equip maintenance but I have had other hobbies throughout the year that have cost me far more $$$$ so I consider it a wash.

that's encouraging guys & i'm in good company with gas haters.

i do enjoy the fireplace way more than "desperate house wives".
i considered the work going in & being raised in the sticks, i kind of think of it as earning your carbon footprint, instead of flipping it on.
by $30 a month, i mean just the base fee of keeping my gas service connceted per month, before any useage, assuming the wood btu would cost the same.

as far as an exercise program...eh i kind of have one already
but as for the burnout & getting stuck in the mud today...awesome
i couldn't see the truck i was pulling out @ all for about 30 seconds!
i was imagining what the average stove forum user looks like...
dudes handy with axes & saws in the woods
got lime

I am lucky - I don't even need to add it up - I save a ton!! I live in Ct and have ELECTRIC heat - no good at all. My parents have the same size house in the same town and pay on average 800.00 a month more in winter on their electric bill and the house is never warm. Me and my brother work the wood together - we scavenge wherever we can find a truck load - really not hard where we are at - people actually pay big money to have trees taken away so when you offer to take them for free they are quite happy. We rent a splitter for 100.00 for one weekend and can get 6-8 cords split (we have 5 kids for laborers - hehe) whatever we don't get too we do by hand. Just bought a new Lopi Freedom and chimney liner and will still come out ahead this year and have a warm, comfortable house.
You do have to factor in the labor - but I am not the type to sit on the couch and watch tv anyways so it really gives me something to do other than start another crazy project around the house that will drive my fiance up the wall - keeps me out of trouble

My savings are anywhere from 500-600 gallons of fuel oil a year. My stove and install will be paid for in year 3. My splitter will be paid for in savings on medical bills in time. Now, my time scrounging and processing is a lot harder to measure but I enjoy that part so its hard for me to put a price on that. I'm only in my second year burning so time will tell what the real long term payoff will be. At least that is how I look at it.