PE Pacific Insert Not Bullet-Proof

webbie · Nov 3, 2009

A new thread would be better but I don't think such a poll really says much. Those without issues are less likely to make it to the forum....as you can imagine, those who do have issues might be googling "bad weld Pacific Energy" or something like that and end up here.

That said, it should be noted that I sold hundreds, if not thousands, of Avalon wood stoves and don't remember repairing one weld......certainly never heard anything within a year or two.....so it could be assumed that anything which is reported a few times has some validity to it.

Wacky1 · Nov 3, 2009

53flyer said:
Wacky1 said:

At least PE is making an attempt at honoring their warranty issues... More than alot of companies out there. That gives me peace of mind. Everything these days is mass produced in factories and they are bound to have some issues, that is where the warranty comes in to play. I feel that PE is conducting a good business ethic by taking care of their customers. Keep in mind that the steel and materials they use are not produced by PE but a vendor and this may be very detrimental to their own business with PE and other manufactures, if the quality control at the vendor is slacking then there in lies the problem.. Either way I commend PE on standing by there product, which sounds like in these cases they are.

Click to expand...

I agree with your thoughts that so far it seems like they're addressing these issues. We really still don't know how well or poorly the end result of these 4 (oops 5 as of today) incidents will be. We also can't get away from the fact that if this small a sample size is having this many issues that it's a potentially a symptom of something bigger. In other words, being "reactive" to customers warranty issues is one thing but at some point this begins to look like more than an isolated incident and PE should be getting "proactive". One or two random occurrences is one thing but in <1 month PE's received 5 occurrence (that we know of). That's a big percentage of failures based on the relatively small sample size of their customers that are represented by this thread. There's also a good chance that 3-4 of these 5 people would have never realized they had a problem if not for a chance encounter with this thread. It stands to prudent reason that there are a great more of these problems out there and a fluke problem goes from being just that "a fluke" to something else at some point as does the manufacturers liability go from a fluke warranty problem to negligence if they know of a potentially dangerous situation and take no action other than a reactive one....

I realize you have a PE as well and if I owned one right now I'd want to think they were doing the right thing as well but I'll "commend" them once it seems like they're doing less reacting and actually taking more initiative (perhaps they already are, we can hope so).

I think that they are seriously looking at this problem and it does take time to decide which is the best course of action in this situation. I am sure they are speaking to their engineers and fabricators to see what just went wrong.. Could be as simple as a bad lot of welding wire or rods. Lack of penetration or the opposite for that matter. The metal could be weaker than it supposed to be. But whatever the case, I dont believe PE is going to tell everyone to go "pound sand" ..so to speak. PE does not have the reputation they do, for not doing good business..

Csmith · Nov 3, 2009

Need to take a photography class, but these give the general idea

these two are of the outside , to the left and right of the door near the top

Csmith · Nov 3, 2009

first one is the the door jam on the right side ( the crack is in near the corner), second one is inside the fire box, basically stick your head in , turn your head to the left and look in the corner

have to click on the door jam pic to see the close up to actually see the crack

pilot-werx · Nov 3, 2009

Hogwildz said:
pilot-werx said:

53flyer said:

crazy_dan said:

Called my dealer and she was very helpful. She said she had never heard of that before and mine was the first she had heard of.
She said she would call her contact at PE and get back with me. She called me back in like 5 min. said her contact knew all about it even told her where the cracks should be.
Told me they have a machinewelding shop as part of their business. I was told to bring it in and they will fix it.
I am not real happy with the prospect of wrestling that beast out then back in to the house, but I did not have them install it or deliver it when I bought it.

Anyway I hit the wrong reply button so I will add pictures in a post under this one

Click to expand...

This is crazy that we now have 5 different people with this type of issue... Every dealer says the same thing: "they've never seen it before". However, as stated in a previous post that could easily be simply that "most" stove owners don't inspect their stoves in that much detail. Don't you have to stick your head into the firebox and look back towards the front to even see most of these cracks? Not many people are out there sticking their heads into a sooty firebox to look for something they don't expect to find (or need to look for) in the first place.

Did she talk to Cory? Considering they told your dealer rep that they were aware of the problem she should realize that it's not an isolated event and as a responsible dealer she should be contacting all their PE owners to have them check their stoves for similar problems. In all actuality this seems more and more like something that PE should address in some sort of a recall. Expensive for them? Definitely, but also the right thing to do if a trend is being established. I can tell you one thing for sure: If a "known crack issue" (this thread is a good start for evidence) caused excessive stove temperatures and led to a house fire that PE would be in for a huge lawsuit. Add a death and were talking multiple millions (not to mention all the bad press causing loss of customers. To me, this seems like PE needs to stop addressing this problem reactively and get proactive...

I also still don't like them saying you need to take the stove in. It's something that you (the customer) did nothing to cause and they should be responsible for making it right. It's not like were talking about a car that can be driven in for warranty work and guess what, if a car couldn't be driven safely due to a defect that made it unsafe to drive to manufacturer/dealer would be paying to tow it from your house.

That PE Super I was looking at is looking less appealing. I wish PE would say it's something they identified and fixed. Even if it actually is the case (that they've fixed an identified issue) it would be expensive to actually "admit it" and have to deal with the tidal wave of warranty issues that would follow for all those previous stoves. I still think it would be a lot cheaper (dollar & reputation wise) than the fire scenario I described though.

Edited: Just read meathead's post (must have posted while I was writing mine). It's probably evident from my post that I completely agree and would tell the dealer & PE to come get it "at my convenience". Also, it's getting a little cold out so they should provide you with a stove to use while yours is getting fixed!

Click to expand...

I can tell you that after spending over $2500 for this stove if cracks appear I will not accept it being simply welded. I will be more than happy to bring it back to the dealer in exchange for another stove in a crate. It is crazy that they are having independent welding shops fix this from a liability and SAFETY standpoint. I can say that I have recommended this stove to everyone who has asked me about it but I can say that after reading about how PE has handled this I will not be so quick to tell everyone to run out and buy one....

Click to expand...

Well there are always those that have to have something new regardless of the fix or repair ( not knocking you, just acknowledging some folks will not accept anything but new). The stoves are welded together at the start, not magically assembled. It is no less safe or liable for a certified welder to make the necessary repairs. Most car companies don't even replace a car for defects, unless they cannot be corrected, that is where the lemon law comes to play. Keep an eye on your stove is all I can suggest at this time. How PE has handled it so far is ok in my book. Not once did I have over fire thrown in my face. How many other manufacturers will use that excuse right from the git go? Of course at this point, its not an isolated incidence, but PE has responded well long before the additional problem stoves surfaced. Give the company a chance to make right, before condemning them.

Correct, I would not accept a repaired stove. Comparing a car to a woodstove is really not relative. You are comparing a welded steel box to a machine. But I will tell you that if driving down the road and the frame of my new car started to develop cracks, I would not take anything less than a new car, or if they wanted to go through the trouble, a new frame. Same with the stove, I would not accept anything less than a new fire box....

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

pilot-werx said:
Hogwildz said:

pilot-werx said:

53flyer said:

crazy_dan said:

Called my dealer and she was very helpful. She said she had never heard of that before and mine was the first she had heard of.
She said she would call her contact at PE and get back with me. She called me back in like 5 min. said her contact knew all about it even told her where the cracks should be.
Told me they have a machinewelding shop as part of their business. I was told to bring it in and they will fix it.
I am not real happy with the prospect of wrestling that beast out then back in to the house, but I did not have them install it or deliver it when I bought it.

Anyway I hit the wrong reply button so I will add pictures in a post under this one

Click to expand...

This is crazy that we now have 5 different people with this type of issue... Every dealer says the same thing: "they've never seen it before". However, as stated in a previous post that could easily be simply that "most" stove owners don't inspect their stoves in that much detail. Don't you have to stick your head into the firebox and look back towards the front to even see most of these cracks? Not many people are out there sticking their heads into a sooty firebox to look for something they don't expect to find (or need to look for) in the first place.

Did she talk to Cory? Considering they told your dealer rep that they were aware of the problem she should realize that it's not an isolated event and as a responsible dealer she should be contacting all their PE owners to have them check their stoves for similar problems. In all actuality this seems more and more like something that PE should address in some sort of a recall. Expensive for them? Definitely, but also the right thing to do if a trend is being established. I can tell you one thing for sure: If a "known crack issue" (this thread is a good start for evidence) caused excessive stove temperatures and led to a house fire that PE would be in for a huge lawsuit. Add a death and were talking multiple millions (not to mention all the bad press causing loss of customers. To me, this seems like PE needs to stop addressing this problem reactively and get proactive...

I also still don't like them saying you need to take the stove in. It's something that you (the customer) did nothing to cause and they should be responsible for making it right. It's not like were talking about a car that can be driven in for warranty work and guess what, if a car couldn't be driven safely due to a defect that made it unsafe to drive to manufacturer/dealer would be paying to tow it from your house.

That PE Super I was looking at is looking less appealing. I wish PE would say it's something they identified and fixed. Even if it actually is the case (that they've fixed an identified issue) it would be expensive to actually "admit it" and have to deal with the tidal wave of warranty issues that would follow for all those previous stoves. I still think it would be a lot cheaper (dollar & reputation wise) than the fire scenario I described though.

Edited: Just read meathead's post (must have posted while I was writing mine). It's probably evident from my post that I completely agree and would tell the dealer & PE to come get it "at my convenience". Also, it's getting a little cold out so they should provide you with a stove to use while yours is getting fixed!

Click to expand...

I can tell you that after spending over $2500 for this stove if cracks appear I will not accept it being simply welded. I will be more than happy to bring it back to the dealer in exchange for another stove in a crate. It is crazy that they are having independent welding shops fix this from a liability and SAFETY standpoint. I can say that I have recommended this stove to everyone who has asked me about it but I can say that after reading about how PE has handled this I will not be so quick to tell everyone to run out and buy one....

Click to expand...

Well there are always those that have to have something new regardless of the fix or repair ( not knocking you, just acknowledging some folks will not accept anything but new). The stoves are welded together at the start, not magically assembled. It is no less safe or liable for a certified welder to make the necessary repairs. Most car companies don't even replace a car for defects, unless they cannot be corrected, that is where the lemon law comes to play. Keep an eye on your stove is all I can suggest at this time. How PE has handled it so far is ok in my book. Not once did I have over fire thrown in my face. How many other manufacturers will use that excuse right from the git go? Of course at this point, its not an isolated incidence, but PE has responded well long before the additional problem stoves surfaced. Give the company a chance to make right, before condemning them.

Click to expand...

Correct, I would not accept a repaired stove. Comparing a car to a woodstove is really not relative. You are comparing a welded steel box to a machine. But I will tell you that if driving down the road and the frame of my new car started to develop cracks, I would not take anything less than a new car, or if they wanted to go through the trouble, a new frame. Same with the stove, I would not accept anything less than a new fire box....

Out of curiosity, what brand & model stove do you own?
Ad you have a right to your own view & opinion, I respect that. Whether you would get a new firebox or not , who knows.
With the amount of these starting to surface, it may go that route, I don't know. I would surely take a new one if offered. But would also want to know the issue causing the problems has been remedied.

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

Update:
I obtained a welding truck, and my neighbor repaired the cracks.
He had an air drill with burring bit, which made it much easier to grind the cracks out. No way an angle grinder could have gotten to some spots.
The photos didn't turn out great. For some reason the shiny steel looks bronze or rusted. But it is shiny steel at the repairs.
First photos of the ground out cracks:

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

I did not have a chance to get photos of the weld before he ground the face welds down, but here they are prior to finish smoothing.
When he re-welded the inner door opening corners, he built it up with more weld than from factory, and also added more to the bottom corners.

madrone · Nov 4, 2009

Dirtgrain said:
If I were to buy a PE Summit, what should I look for in inspecting the welds? All I know is that good welds are supposed to look like stacked nickels leaning in the same direction.

Not in this case. Oxy/fuel or tig welds do, but not these kind of mig welds. The tough thing about these failures is that poor penetration isn't always obvious. Cracks are obviously bad, welds that vary greatly in width over the length of the weld, undercutting (groove next to the weld) are the things I'd watch for in this case.

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

The smoothed finished buff looks better than in the photos, but here they are.
He had a hard time on the hinge side, it was tough to get the disc in there past the hinge post.

madrone · Nov 4, 2009

Flux-core? Lookin' good so far!

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

And finally a pic of the truck I got. The job took 2-1/2 to 3 hours.
And then I had to return the truck.
Man I wish I had the paint.

greythorn3 · Nov 4, 2009

Looks great feral swine! keep us updated on how it holds togeather!

Ray

Frostbit · Nov 4, 2009

madrone said:
Flux-core? Lookin' good so far!

Dunno. I think I see stick tracks. SMAW LH78, I would guess. I could be wrong.

I woulda done it with a MIG

crazy_dan · Nov 4, 2009

Wacky1 said:
I think that they are seriously looking at this problem and it does take time to decide which is the best course of action in this situation. I am sure they are speaking to their engineers and fabricators to see what just went wrong.. Could be as simple as a bad lot of welding wire or rods. Lack of penetration or the opposite for that matter. The metal could be weaker than it supposed to be. But whatever the case, I dont believe PE is going to tell everyone to go "pound sand" ..so to speak. PE does not have the reputation they do, for not doing good business..

The reason I was given was when the air wash was welded in it caused a pressure point then due to the heating and cooling expansion and contraction of the metal it causes a crack. I was told where and what the cracks looked like with out them even seeing the pictures. So I believe that they have figured out the problem and have corrected it I hope. I am sure it is cheaper to fix it at the factory and not after a customer buys it.

From the sounds of it (my thoughts and feelings) it was either a bad batch of metal or The size of plate needed was underestimated IE. it stood up to testing but in real world use where I know hogs and mine are run 24/7, it did not hold up. It is one of them shat happens kinda things.

I would still buy a PE product even after having this happen because they have stood behind their product. Every maker has had flaws at one point or another, It is how they handle those flaws is a real measure of the caliber of company you are doing business with.

pilot-werx · Nov 4, 2009

I have a PE Summit. Will be a year old next week. If you are happy having it welded then so be it...

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

Frostbit said:
madrone said:

Flux-core? Lookin' good so far!

Click to expand...

Dunno. I think I see stick tracks. SMAW LH78, I would guess. I could be wrong.

I woulda done it with a MIG

Yes, stick.
Keep in mind it was done where it sits. The upper innr opening cracks were tough enough position wise.
Not that it was not possible obviously, but working laying on his side looking up. The generator/welder would have to get up to speed once stick was applied. Which caused it to stick a couple times.
Prolly easier to do in a shop where the stove can be positioned more than the welder having to position himself to the stove.
I have got to find some stove bright metallic black paint locally. Lowes, HD & Ace do not carry them as far as I know.

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

pilot-werx said:
I have a PE Summit. Will be a year old next week. If you are happy having it welded then so be it...

Check your Stove plate or QC card for date of manufacture. If between 2006-2007, keep an eye on the problem areas.
I am happy to be able to have heat soon, as it is getting cold here. If they want tp replace it next spring or summer, I would not turn a new one down.
I don't have time to wait till the middle of winter for a new one now. And highly doubt that option is on the table as of yet.

Hogwildz · Nov 4, 2009

crazy_dan said:
Wacky1 said:

I think that they are seriously looking at this problem and it does take time to decide which is the best course of action in this situation. I am sure they are speaking to their engineers and fabricators to see what just went wrong.. Could be as simple as a bad lot of welding wire or rods. Lack of penetration or the opposite for that matter. The metal could be weaker than it supposed to be. But whatever the case, I dont believe PE is going to tell everyone to go "pound sand" ..so to speak. PE does not have the reputation they do, for not doing good business..

Click to expand...

The reason I was given was when the air wash was welded in it caused a pressure point then due to the heating and cooling expansion and contraction of the metal it causes a crack. I was told where and what the cracks looked like with out them even seeing the pictures. So I believe that they have figured out the problem and have corrected it I hope. I am sure it is cheaper to fix it at the factory and not after a customer buys it.

From the sounds of it (my thoughts and feelings) it was either a bad batch of metal or The size of plate needed was underestimated IE. it stood up to testing but in real world use where I know hogs and mine are run 24/7, it did not hold up. It is one of them shat happens kinda things.

I would still buy a PE product even after having this happen because they have stood behind their product. Every maker has had flaws at one point or another, It is how they handle those flaws is a real measure of the caliber of company you are doing business with.

My welder said same thing, could have been a batch of inferior steel. But said he could not tell for sure.
I am thinking these stoves have been made for years before the problem, and obviously since. I am leaning towards bad batch during the 2006-2007 manufacture year.

madison · Nov 4, 2009

Food for thought:

I have had my manifold booster replaced last yr under warranty ( https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30126 ) and during communications with PE, it was stated to me that they had changed (increased) the length of the boost manifold and ran into issues with the expansion of the boost manifold which resulted in warping when it expanded with heating. It was indicated that they had changed the dimension back after some issues.

I now wonder, that if the air wash piece expands, may it be creating the forces that are causing the cracks? And were there length changes made to that part as well? Both pieces are in the same orientation within the stove body....

I hope that all issues are resolved to the satisfaction of the customer. Though with the dealer interposed between the manufacturer and customer, I have a feeling that the customer's experience will not be uniform unless the manufacturer "steps up to the plate", and rather than "patch/repair" the issues, find the root cause and replace the affected units.

I would bet that the end result would be a happier customer, and more stoves sold in the future.

Frostbit · Nov 4, 2009

Hogwildz said:
Frostbit said:

madrone said:

Flux-core? Lookin' good so far!

Click to expand...

Dunno. I think I see stick tracks. SMAW LH78, I would guess. I could be wrong.

I woulda done it with a MIG

Click to expand...

Yes, stick.
Keep in mind it was done where it sits. The upper innr opening cracks were tough enough position wise.
Not that it was not possible obviously, but working laying on his side looking up. The generator/welder would have to get up to speed once stick was applied. Which caused it to stick a couple times.
Prolly easier to do in a shop where the stove can be positioned more than the welder having to position himself to the stove.
I have got to find some stove bright metallic black paint locally. Lowes, HD & Ace do not carry them as far as I know.

Do you have one of those flexible grinding/polishing discs and a 4 1/2" electric grinder? Its the way to go to remove any leftover weld and polish out grinding and burr marks before you paint. It will bring the steel to a bright smooth finish before you paint. I mention this because when you do paint, even the tiniest scratch or mark will be amplified to the eye when the paint dries.

53flyer · Nov 4, 2009

madison said:
Food for thought:
I have had my manifold booster replaced last yr under warranty ( https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30126 ) and during communications with PE, it was stated to me that they had changed (increased) the length of the boost manifold and ran into issues with the expansion of the boost manifold which resulted in warping when it expanded with heating. It was indicated that they had changed the dimension back after some issues.

I now wonder, that if the air wash piece expands, may it be creating the forces that are causing the cracks? And were there length changes made to that part as well? Both pieces are in the same orientation within the stove body....

That's interesting madison.

Hogwildz said:
crazy_dan said:

The reason I was given was when the air wash was welded in it caused a pressure point then due to the heating and cooling expansion and contraction of the metal it causes a crack. I was told where and what the cracks looked like with out them even seeing the pictures. So I believe that they have figured out the problem and have corrected it I hope. I am sure it is cheaper to fix it at the factory and not after a customer buys it.

From the sounds of it (my thoughts and feelings) it was either a bad batch of metal or The size of plate needed was underestimated IE. it stood up to testing but in real world use where I know hogs and mine are run 24/7, it did not hold up. It is one of them shat happens kinda things.

Click to expand...

My welder said same thing, could have been a batch of inferior steel. But said he could not tell for sure.
I am thinking these stoves have been made for years before the problem, and obviously since. I am leaning towards bad batch during the 2006-2007 manufacture year.

Hog- It looks like it goes back as far as 2005 (or 2004) based on Sisu's purchase although knowing the manufactured dates for all the stoves would help with your "leaning" direction. A bad batch of steel seems unlikely to have lasted 2+ yrs though. Here's what I believe to be pretty accurate but people should fill in as appropriate to give you a better idea as to the timeframe involved and how far back you might lean.
Inserts:
Sisu-----[Pacific]---[Bought 2005]--[Manufactured ___?]
Hog-----[Summit]--[Bought 2006]--[Manufactured 07-06]
Karl-----[Summit]--[Bought 08-07]--[Manufactured ___?]
Smitty--[Summit]--[Bought &/or Manufactured circa 2006]

Free Standing:
crazy_dan [Summit]--[bought 01-08]--[Manufactured 3-2007]
minesmoria [Summit Classic]--[bought 08-2006]--[Manufactured ___?]

Model Summary: 1 Pacific, 5 Summits (3 inserts & 2 Free Standing).

Hogwildz · Nov 5, 2009

Frost, the welder actually did do that buffing with a "tiger pad" I think he called it. It was like a mirror finish almost, and he explained the reason for exactly what you just described.
I bought a can of paint today, painted the entire front, both side grilles, the ash lip, the top plate that overhangs, the lower front pc the slide leer passes through, the lever and the latch tab, of yeah and the entire 3 pc shroud.
Was only going to do the front of the firebox, but the other pcs has minor scratches, but would stand out next to the new paint on the front of the firebox, so I painted it all up front.
I pulled the EBT box out and found the flapper was not seated in place correctly at all, so was not working at all. Might have been letting air in all the time also. Called Cory at PE and he instructed me the way it should be set and advised no adjustments or winding needed on the arm. I need a shower guys, long day, I'm dead tires and got the insert up and running about an hour ago.
I'll post photos & such when I return.
Oh yeah, mine was purchased 2006 and it was manufactured 2006.

Frostbit · Nov 5, 2009

Yup, Tiger pad or horizontal flap wheel is what it is. Good.

Glad to hear its back doing what its supposed to be doing. Look forward to the pics.

Hogwildz · Nov 5, 2009

Ok, I should have let the pain air cure a couple days, if it becomes a problem, I'll sand & refinish. I just had to see how it is operating .
I wanted to see if it operated better now that the EBT flapper was in position and covering the hole when it should be. I did not run it hot enough to engage the EBT yet.
Seems more level and more easily controllable. I won't really know till its up to full temp.
Here are some photos:
Right face after paint, and close up.
EBT, notice the bees, flys & ladybugs. Note to self, during yearly cleaning, pull EBT, inspect & clean.
Sorry, forgot to take a phot of the flapper in correct position. it has a tab on each side that sits in a slot in those brackets each side.

PE Pacific Insert Not Bullet-Proof

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