My first top down fire and it sucked

I do my bottom up fires with the kin'lin supported up on the doghouse brick and layers criss crossed. Tried the top down method but it doesn't work with criss crossed layers. The fragile coals don't stay together to feed off each other but rather fall down the spaces.

If I were to try top down again, I would have to lay up the top two layers close together and run them N/S. I would also have to use much shorter kin'lin, not the 20" lengths I use now.

I found top down makes a lot less smoke and is cleaner on the cold glass but it also takes longer before you get decent heat.

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sorry to offend.


Top down isn't for me either.

Add me to the list of non believers. Dont care what Vanessa says, top down fires suck. I've got more kindling than I know what to do with (neighbor builds custom cabinets) therefore I have no issues with starting the ol school boy scout, bottom up, criss crossed, firebox packed full of kindling fire. Sorry guys, this top down technique is crap.

Highbeam said:

You're right, no newspaper. I'm too young to read newspapers as so we just don't have any at home.

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Ha, ha, me too. I scrounge my newspapers, believe it or not. If it isn't online, I don't read it.

I can understand why people like the top down, if you got a good technique it works almost everytime with out fail, and the bottom up can tumble or smolder, however the top down just takes too long to get going and start producing heat. When I do a cold start I'm usually cold and want some heat ASAP. Top down is not ASAP. I have a bottom up technique that is fool proof, works every time and gets my stove up to temp in 30-45 mins. Its cheating a bit, but works so well. Uses super cedars and 2 biobricks.

PeteD said:

Highbeam said:

You're right, no newspaper. I'm too young to read newspapers as so we just don't have any at home.

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Ha, ha, me too. I scrounge my newspapers, believe it or not. If it isn't online, I don't read it.

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I don't read newspapers but will look at the odd sales flyer. I won't burn them though, mostly because I don't like getting my hands black and they don't really burn all that well. I buy the unprinted paper that movers use to pack dishes and stuff.

I recycle all my newspapers...no tying bows or even crumpling them up. Tedious and inky. I use ¼ of a Super Cedar & a bit of kindling. I might build top-down or bottom-up or somewhere in between, as the mood strikes me, but I don't have a problem doing it any way I choose to do it...I always get a nice fire going. Yes, I was a Boy Scout. If you tried it top-down and you don't like it, so be it, but that's no reason to pooh-pooh it...especially in light of the fact that there are many here who swear by it. What, they don't know how to burn? I think that's not the case. Maybe you hosed it up somehow, or you don't understand it. Maybe trying it just one time and failing and so dismissing it as nonsense isn't really much of a try. And, while I'm on my soapbox, some of you knuckleheads need to keep in mind that this forum isn't your Saturday night poker game with the boys, it's a public forum with a diverse membership. Think about that before you post your cleverly constructed (in your mind), but perfectly transparent innuendos. Rick

i use the top down with no problems. my criss cross layers are on top of big splits with the small end of the splits facing up so that the coals can fall between splits and have no trouble with it. but yes i can take a little longer to get heat output. but the nice thing once you get the hang of it is you can light off the fire and walk away and do other things that need to get done then on a half hour or 1 hour later turn you air down a little. it's definitely much less smoke coming out of the chimney.
and i also light it off with out paper or starters. have scraps from the job. what i use is cedar shingles and or 2x4 ripped down to no thicker that 1/4 inch. light that with the lighter and close the door.

This year is the first time I tried the top-down method. I was skeptical, but it's been smooth since the first try, though I did build it pretty much exactly like in the video. Light the knots, close the door, walk away, and let 'er rip. 30 minutes later I have secondaries and am on my way to building a coal bed. No poking, prodding, or cracking a door to get it to go.

Perhaps some stoves have an internal airflow pattern that lends itself to top-down starts, and others don't?

fossil said:

I recycle all my newspapers...no tying bows or even crumpling them up. Tedious and inky. I use ¼ of a Super Cedar & a bit of kindling. I might build top-down or bottom-up or somewhere in between, as the mood strikes me, but I don't have a problem doing it any way I choose to do it...I always get a nice fire going. Yes, I was a Boy Scout. If you tried it top-down and you don't like it, so be it, but that's no reason to pooh-pooh it...especially in light of the fact that there are many here who swear by it. What, they don't know how to burn? I think that's not the case. Maybe you hosed it up somehow, or you don't understand it. Maybe trying it just one time and failing and so dismissing it as nonsense isn't really much of a try. And, while I'm on my soapbox, some of you knuckleheads need to keep in mind that this forum isn't your Saturday night poker game with the boys, it's a public forum with a diverse membership. Think about that before you post your cleverly constructed (in your mind), but perfectly transparent innuendos. Rick

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Rick, I love you

In a forum/BB kinda way. Not our BB, just to clarify, although I am tres fond of our BB.

LLigetfa said:

If I were to try top down again, I would have to lay up the top two layers close together and run them N/S. I would also have to use much shorter kin'lin, not the 20" lengths I use now.

I found top down makes a lot less smoke and is cleaner on the cold glass but it also takes longer before you get decent heat.

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bingo. Kindling burns tight together right on top of closely spaced splits, N/S. I find that I can load before there are only coals, as soon as the kindling has burned down and the splits are going, therefore I disagree about longer times. I find my preheat fires don't have to burn as long. Easier to prepare as well, and less kindling. But I was never a boy scout.

Highbeam said:

It is just as important to pooh-pooh something as it is to praise it, people need to hear both sides of the story and there was already a happy day thread about this method. I tried it once and it sucked, seems that there are many that think it is not superior. The other thread was about people that tried it once and loved it. Same same but no moderator trying to pooh pooh the discussion.

Just what inuendos are you talking about foss? Could those posts be dealt with in such a manner as to maintain the thread's topic?

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Not trying to pooh-pooh the discussion, Highbeam, just sayin' that maybe one try isn't enough to dismiss the method entirely, but that's up to you, of course. The innuendos I was talking about were not yours, nor did I feel they were (quite) blatant enough to warrant me just deleting the posts. I'd like very much to see the integrity of the thread topic continued. I'm not personally emotionally invested one way or the other, I've just found that top-down is as valid and effective a way of starting a nice fire in either of my stoves as any other way. If I came across a thread that put forth the idea that top-down was the only acceptable way to build a fire and that bottom-up sucked, my reaction to it would likely be very much the same. Rick

"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you" comes to mind... sure wish I knew who came up with that so I could give proper attribution.

Anyway, I agree that it is just as important to discuss the negative side of any technique or equipment as it is to praise the same so I rather welcome the discussion. However, I expect few on this forum would have a lot of patience with someone who bought a new stove, tried it once and was disappointed then started posting about how that make/model stove sucked to high heaven.

Top down method IS different. I too was a boy scout and recall not only being taught to build bottom up, but teaching countless others the bottom up technique. I was unsure of things when I first tried it and I don't think my first few top down fires went nearly as well as they do now - I observed the results, modified my approach, observed, modified... repeated until now. In short I practiced and learned how to get where I am now... Hmmm.. Funny thing, I seem to recall my first bottom up fires didn't go so well either, ok I don't actually remember MY first bottom up fires as they were a LONG time ago but I do remember a lot of other people struggling with mastering them. Speaking of such, I DO recall my first fire in my stove, and it was a bottom up fire, and it was a disaster.

My point here is that the top down fire technique is actually a skill. Granted I tend to think it is an easier skill to master than the bottom up, but it is still a skill. Those who have mastered the bottom up have gotten that one down pat. Well, guess you may need to try a few times and experiment. Note that the top down isn't just "flipping a bottom up fire over" - building it is technically different and thus the skills from one don't necessarily transfer directly to the other.

The nice thing about these forums is that you can get help if you should so desire. I'm sure that if you post questions and describe what is happening lots of folks will be glad to offer suggestions on how to modify your technique to improve results. Pictures wouldn't hurt either.

Final thought - to those who say "top down takes longer to get up to temp" I disagree with that statement. Note that I can get my stove up to cat light-off temp in about 30 minutes from cold which is about as fast as I imagine it is safe to do without risking cracking a stone. In fact I reduce air about 15 minutes into the process to slow it down some. I don't think that top-down is necessarily slower, although I will agree that it will start out slower; i.e. the first 5 minutes don't look like much.

Highbeam said:

Just what inuendos are you talking about foss? Could those posts be dealt with in such a manner as to maintain the thread's topic?

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I twisted Rusty's words and apologize to Rusty (don't look for it, it's gone) but partial censorship
and insults keep things going.

Slow1 said:

Note that the top down isn't just "flipping a bottom up fire over" - building it is technically different and thus the skills from one don't necessarily transfer directly to the other...

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DOH! So that's where I went wrong. You're right that bottom skills are non-transferable.

in my experience with my stove it not throwing heat all that much in a half hour or 45 minutes because the bottom of the stove is not quite hot yet, but my cooking plate can be up around 650 - 700 degrees in that time. then as the fire works down the whole stove comes up to temp and the bimetallic spring on the primary air starts shutting down.

Bows are for hoes!

Highbeam I started using the top down method before I found this website or heard others talk about it. My old stove had a small firebox that had a habit of back puffing while starting a fire. I finally figured out that if I started the fire in the rear upper portion, that the smoke would have a better chance of going up the flue than out into my house. I think the main advantage to top down starts are for people that have trouble starting it the traditional way. If you try it again, put your kindling and fire starter way at the back and keep your air inlet open till its roaring good and you will be all set.

Hogwildz said:

Bows are for hoes!

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Don't be an ash hoe. :coolsmile: