Wood heat safety

AlexNY · Dec 4, 2009

Is wood heat behind the times when it comes to risk management, safe practices, and hazard mitigation? I work for the Department of Energy, and whenever any new energy technology is discussed, the very first thing on the agenda is safety and hazard management. If we as a community want wood heat to be taken seriously as a mainstream technology, should we not put safety and hazard management front and centre in everything we do? I can think of no other area of human endeavour about which so little is known regarding safety.

Fire risk information is likely adequate. Issues regarding management of smoke and chainsaw hazards are probably also OK, although I can find no centralized source that organizes existing information in the context of comprehensive wood heat safety, other than a rather old Canadian government publication.

There is virtually no information about wood splitting safety. My personal experience after years of wood splitting is that the standard two-handed overhead split stroke is extremely safe to the maul operator, and extremely hazardous to any by-standers or spectators. The orthogonal angle that is perfect for by-standers observing a wood split stroke is very likely to be showered with wood splinters, or crushed by a maul after a diverted glancing blow. The wood splitter is in some minor danger in cases where a short "chop" stroke is delivered to an almost-split round with one hand holding the handle near the wedge. Wedges, overhead hazards such as clothes lines, and eye protection all have safety issues associated with them. It would be nice if more information existed about this.

Drying wood in stacks are extremely hazardous to climbing children, and yet I have found exactly zero information about this anywhere. I had to find out through experience after a 7 foot wood stack crumbled in an unexpected way when I was adding to it, resulting in an injury to my leg. A small child could have been crushed by that same incident.

Hazards associated with burning cardboard, newspaper with coloured ink, bleached (white) paper, plasticized newspaper, plastics, rubbers, and CCA lumber (in rough order of least to most hazardous) are very hard to find, other than "collegial advice" and (yet again) a Canadian government pamphlet from many years ago that says "don't", but really does not explain why.

Hazards associated with inhaling or ingesting firewood ash are virtually non-existent. I did locate a study that showed that the lethal dose of ash from CCA lumber was small enough to send chills down my spine (my then 2 year old son could be in mortal danger from eating food without washing his hands after crawling around in an invisibly thin layer of ash from CCA lumber ... scary).

I wonder what, if anything, we as a community can do to address these questions that are necessary before wood heat could be considered a mainstream technology, rather than a fringe hobby of a few believers?

Just a thought.

highmark800 · Dec 4, 2009

Just what we need more govt rules and regs spending and waisting more of our hard earned money. You know I stubed my toe getting out of bed this morning and at that very moment I thought "I sure wish the govt would make the people who made this bed be safer for me" you know protect me from me. If all risk and danger where removed from life what kind of life would that be?

pgmr · Dec 4, 2009

AlexNY said:
I wonder what, if anything, we as a community can do to address these questions that are necessary before wood heat could be considered a mainstream technology, rather than a fringe hobby of a few believers?

Wood heat used to be the mainstream technology. People went away from it when easier methods (coal, oil, gas) were found. It's human nature to take the easier route when offered. Most people don't want to mess with it, which is fine with me - there aren't enough trees to go around for everyone to heat with wood.

prajna101 · Dec 4, 2009

Your right!! I have been totally reckless. Time to go get my helmet and never leave my couch.

Safety is good and all. Sometimes there doesnt need to be a manual for everything. Darwin has a theory about this.

I truly hope that my children grow up, get hurt, cry, fall down, skin their knee, get stitches, wear casts. Its part of living a full life. I hope it doesnt kill them too soon, but I would hate for them to be afraid of all the dangers that exist. Just accept them, avoid them as best as you can, and when something bad happens collect yourself, learn and move on.

t

Martin Strand III · Dec 4, 2009

“...I live in perilous times. Even in my most secure moments, when I lie in bed with loving arms around me, I know this is so. I try to persuade myself that I’m safer than my Stone Age ancestors because my world has a civilized veneer, but the truth is that I’m no more protected in my clapboard house than they were in their cave.
The voice of an ancient forebear rises within me and issues a warning cry. The cougar still lurks on the ledge over my head; the barbarian horde still threatens my town. I put my trust in the electronic appliances of my age; surely they will defend me against the pestilence that rises without warning and spreads like locusts across the land. But once again I know I am allowing myself to be deceived. The only security I know, that I will ever know, lies in me. And so I sit high on the windward deck and tell myself to watch the sail, and beware of the jibe.”

--- First You Have to Row a Little Boat, R Bode

Simply put: safety lies within.

Aye,
Marty

AlexNY · Dec 4, 2009

piney said:
Just what we need more govt rules and regs spending and waisting more of our hard earned money.

I work with technology development, not safety, so I have to jump through more hoops than most. The best way to prevent intrusive rules is to self-organize efficiently enough that government does not feel compelled to act.

You may not like it, but every technology that hopes to become main stream today has a necessary appointment with either (1) a comprehensive and well thought out self-developed safety culture, or (2) with reams of new government regulations and oversight.

Besides, is it really a bad thing to have an organized and helpful source for advice to guide new wood heaters, so that they do not have to learn tough lessons over years of trial and error in the "school of hard knocks"?

cycloxer · Dec 4, 2009

To answer your question simply: Educate People. Pass on the knowledge. Forums like this one are a fantastic venue to accomplish this. The Hearth is filled with experts in a variety of fields and there are people who have been cutting, splitting, stacking, installing, and burning for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. You can ask pretty much any question here and somebody will help you out and keep you entertained in the process. Seriously, hearth.com is a powerful tool.

I am much more of the live free or die mentality. I work in a highly regulated industry. It is not fun. You don't want more rules, regulations, and processes. If you hurt yourself with your chainsaw or start something on fire, you did something dumb and you should take responsibility. Now accidents always happen. We try to prevent them as much as possible, yeah of course. However, there are different ways to accomplish this. Some people have enough respect and take the time to figure out what they are doing before they make a dumb mistake. It doesn't always require more regulations, laws, and permits.

Examples:
You want to install a stove?
Read the manual. Read NFP guides. Come here and ask questions. Ask the stove shop. You can do it safely if you spend the time to educate yourself. There is no reason why we need permits and inspectors.

You want to run a chainsaw? I am sure the store who sells you a saw would be more than happy to give you a 15 minute lesson on safe operation. They want to keep you alive so they can sell you more chains and oil, etc. Do you want to require a permit to own and operate a chainsaw? Afterall it could be considered a weapon.

How should you stack and dry wood?
Ask the guy you bought the wood from. He wants you to be happy with its performance so he can sell you more in the future. If you have small kids around the house, think about what is going to happen if your 6' tall mega-stack of wood falls on them. This is just common sense. Should we enact a law restricting wood piles to no more than 3' in height? Have you ever wondered why a cord of wood is listed as 4'W x 8'L x 4'H?

How to split wood?
Okay here you just need some common sense and a little practice. Gloves, eye protection, keep the dog and small children away from the work area. I mean come on, we are splitting wood for cryin out loud. It's a bit dangerous yeah, but we aren't at the firing range either.

Burning things in your wood stove?
Okay if you read the manual it tells you to burn wood and only wood. It's not an incinerator. My dad uses his fireplace like an incinerator. I think it was the old school mentality. My Polish neighbors burn all sorts of crap in a barrel behind the house. Old School. Is it smart and good for the environment? No, of course not. A colored paper or piece of cardboard here or there in your stove isn't going to melt down the globe either. Common sense. Yeah if I had a CAT stove, I'd probably be more careful, but they also tell you that in the manual.

Live free or die...and use your head so you don't kill yourself in the process, lol

begreen · Dec 4, 2009

Nice Marty, there is another section that inspires me.

"For the truth is that I already know as much about my fate as I need to know. The day will come when I will die. So the only matter of consequence before me is what I will do with my allotted time. I can remain on shore, paralyzed with fear, or I can raise my sails and dip and soar in the breeze."

We try to push common sense and safety here on a regular basis. Check the Gear forum. Gooserider has done a nice job of this as has Eric Johnson. The big stack of wood collapsing is no joke. It happened to me last year. Fortunately, I had a Don Juan moment and literally flew backward in a microsecond. Just enough time to avoid an 8ft stack of wood from crushing me. I posted the incident here in the Wood Shed section to warn others to be careful how they stack big stacks of wood.

Keep a stick on the ice, we're all in this together.

AlexNY · Dec 4, 2009

BeGreen said:
We try to push common sense and safety here on a regular basis. Check the Gear forum. Gooserider has done a nice job of this as has Eric Johnson.

Maybe I can be a little more specific.

Check out this site on the safety of fluorescent light bulbs. It is on a self-organized, government-independent, citizen run, volunteer based web site that is devoted to organizing safety issues regarding common activities that we all take for granted. It has nothing to do with regulation, and everything to do with information:

http://www.ehso.com/fluorescent_safety.php

Any sane person can surely see that there are far far far more safety issues regarding a wood heating appliance and lifestyle than there are regarding compact fluorescent light bulbs. And yet, there is no "ehso" site for wood burning, wood fuel, or wood stove.

There are so many people on this board with years of wisdom and experience that can prevent accidents and injuries to new members of the wood heat community and their family members. I see this as an opportunity to make a real difference, possibly saving many lives, while also sharing your wisdom in a positive way.

Answering questions when asked is a very kind and decent thing to do, but most new wood heaters will never visit hearth.com (and if they did, they may well not know which questions to ask).

I wonder if it would not be wise and valuable to have a web-site devoted exclusively to wood safety? It it were well done, you might find that organizations such as "woodheat.org" and this forum would link to it, and possibly also manufacturers of wood burning appliances. That could really make an impact in terms of safety improvement, while also keeping the intrusive arm of government at bay.

Win win?

Lots of work of course.

By the way, I would be happy to help with this task if asked, but only a person who is recognized as a leader in the field would have the eminence to properly organize such an endeavour.

ckarotka · Dec 4, 2009

Didn't Jessie Ventura refuse to post a sign on the lakes of MN saying "don't ride snowmobliles on an unfrozen lake" and waste gov money
I thought he said it was "natures way of weeding out the stupid people."
do your homework and pay attention

Or shout from the rooftops "If you burn wood you'll die" "After you stop burning take all your unused wood to me and I will save you from the fire"
I'm glad not everyone knows how safe it can be, leaves more wood for me.
But safety won't get lazy people to burn that's for sure.

AlexNY · Dec 4, 2009

I am probably being a little too kind to the ehso web site, it is not government run but it is run largely by off-duty EPA personnel.

This is just an example, and the wood heat community could rally around a very different model if a "safety information central depository" were to be created.

begreen · Dec 4, 2009

Having a single source location for wood burning safety is not a bad idea. I may pull together a wiki article culling information from posts and articles.

However, it is not hard to find this information. A google seach on wood safety brings up a lot of hits.

http://www.dps.state.ak.us/Fire/TEB/docs/woodstovesafety.pdf
http://www.woodheat.org/safety/safety.htm
http://www.anpac.com/safety/home/III/Wood_Stoves.pdf

But as this article says, it's not just common sense:

http://Aww.woodheat.org/safety/services.htm

And Craig has many good articles posted here on Hearth.com as well:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/wood_heat_emergency
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/stories/articles/why_you/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/unvented_vs_vented_gas_appliances
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/choosing_and_using_wstove

Lumber-Jack · Dec 4, 2009

Common sense is the key, not more rules and bureaucracy. Doesn't mater how many rules and regulations you have stupid people are still gona find ways to hurt themselves. Part of the house insurance process of passing my wood stove involves the insurance agent coming over and taking a picture of the wood stove. While he was here we discussed how this was true, he related some stories about wood stoves, clearance regulations and stupidity. One example he related was going to one particular house to take pictures of a wood stove set up that had already been inspected by a WETT certified inspector and met all the criteria, the insurance guy went to take the insurance picture of the hearth and the homeowners had a cloths line strung across the room with cloths hanging from the line over the stove. He said one of the items was even a bit browned from hanging too close to the stove. Not a thing he could do about it, the stove set up had passed the inspection, and his job was just to get that picture of the hearth. The picture is for documentation so if there ever was a fire they could look back at the picture and compare it to the remains after a fire and see if there was any modifications to the hearth that lead to the fire. The cloths line was not a permanent structure and as such did not enter into the hearth clearance inspection.
On the subject of trying to protect people form themselves, the two most dangerous areas that majority of people are involved in everyday where they are getting hurt is taking care of their health (poor diet, lack of exercise, smoking) and driving their car. And yet there is already plenty of regulation and education out there on these things.

There are two types of people in this world, those who have been granted the gift of common sense who are able to survive unscathed through most situations that seem dangerous , and then there are the bureaucrats and rule makers who, despite all the rules and education, still manage to hurt themselves somehow.

However, I think I see what AlexNY may be driving at. Some sort of self regulation organization. Take a look at Hang Gliding (a sport I have been involved in most of my life), they have managed to stay self regulating and out of the government clutches and bureaucracy for many years. The only way they were able to do this was to form a strong organization that focused on education, safety and self regulation. http://www.ushpa.aero/ http://www.hpac.ca/pub/
Personally I think it's too late to try and do something like that with wood heating, but you could try.

pen · Dec 4, 2009

Why???????? Is this necessary??????? If you aren't frickin bright enough to get the heck out of the way of someone splitting wood, or make a good estimate about what is a safe height for stacking your wood, or have a compulsion to try and take a big old sniff of your ashes, then I hope by all means that this individual is at the very least sterilized by their actions so that they cannot pass on their obviously weak genetic / intellectual capabilities to yet another generation.

This is the problem with our society. People want rules so that they can have someone to blame other than themselves when something happens due to their own stupidity.

:-S

pen

yanksforever · Dec 4, 2009

Alex...it sounds like you may be bringing your job home with you too much. Try leaving it at work...Sit back...
throw a couple logs in the fire..and crack a cold one and enjoy life!

cycloxer · Dec 4, 2009

Alex,

You know, I just re-read your first post. It is funny because wood heating is a very old technology. It is just that a lot of people forgot how to do it the right way. (Those of us who are here don't count. We are the exception to the rule.) Also, the industry did go through a period decades ago where people were doing dumb things and there were a lot of accidents. It is as safe as it has ever been today. Technology has helped us. Modern materials have helped us. Experience and accident investigation have helped.

If our country can get back to the mentality of 'makers' rather than 'buyers' we will all be for the better. We used to design things and make things in this country. It is literally what made us a great nation. I am continually amazed at the difference between the oldest and youngest generations in this country. Old guys can make anything and do anything. Young guys know how to surf the internet. Smash the flat screen TV and go cut down a tree, log it, haul it, split it, stack it, dry it, burn it, and pass out exhausted and then you get the picture.

AlexNY · Dec 4, 2009

Carbon_Liberator said:
However, I think I see what AlexNY may be driving at. Some sort of self regulation organization. Take a look at Hang Gliding (a sport I have been involved in most of my life), they have managed to stay self regulating and out of the government clutches and bureaucracy for many years. The only way they were able to do this was to form a strong organization that focused on education, safety and self regulation. http://www.ushpa.aero/ http://www.hpac.ca/pub/
Personally I think it's too late to try and do something like that with wood heating, but you could try.

You have said what I wanted to say much more clearly than I was able to say. Thank you.

This is precisely what I think could be useful. If the wood burning community produces its own strong organization that is focused on promoting safety awareness and a safety culture, we can avoid the heavy hand of government. Otherwise, it is just a matter of time until some sad accident brings unwanted attention and unneeded regulation. Accidents are unavoidable, but when an accident occurs, if an industry can show that it is doing everything that it can to promote safety awareness and a safety culture, intrusive government regulation and oversight can usually be avoided.

cycloxer · Dec 4, 2009

AlexNY said:
...it is just a matter of time until some sad accident brings unwanted attention and unneeded regulation...intrusive government regulation and oversight can usually be avoided.

Oops, too late. The accidents already happened in the 70's. Now the EPA regulates how stoves are to be designed and local towns require permits to install and operate a stove. The installers need to be certified and insured. To me that is intrusive government regulation.

BrotherBart · Dec 4, 2009

I thought there already was a single source for this information. hearth.com

cycloxer · Dec 4, 2009

BrotherBart said:
I thought there already was a single source for this information. hearth.com

Fully agree 100%. My knowledge base has increased dramatically by reading about other people's installs, challenges, designs, and viewpoints. It's a lot more fun here listening to what people have to say than reading a manual or NFP regulation (they have their place too, but I think you get the point)!

pyro68 · Dec 4, 2009

Carbon_Liberator said:
Common sense is the key, not more rules and bureaucracy. Doesn't mater how many rules and regulations you have stupid people are still gona find ways to hurt themselves..

enough said, if you think about it, that covers everything, if someone has common sense they will seek out people with the info they need and listen to that advice, if they don't have common sense no amount of legislation can save them. We have become a society where everything is someone elses fault and personal responsibility is a thing of the past. Any doubt remember the McDonalds "hot coffee" lawsuit.

Lumber-Jack · Dec 4, 2009

cycloxer said:
BrotherBart said:

I thought there already was a single source for this information. hearth.com

Click to expand...

Fully agree 100%. My knowledge base has increased dramatically by reading about other people's installs, challenges, designs, and viewpoints. It's a lot more fun here listening to what people have to say than reading a manual or NFP regulation (they have their place too, but I think you get the point)!

There are two principle advantages you gain to having a national organization rather than just some central place where you can share and interchange ideas; one is group insurance (not sure how that would work out with wood heating). The other is political clout. Where the organization itself can be involved in the government regulation making process that end up effecting the members.

hossthehermit · Dec 4, 2009

I am the "Safety Co-ordinator" at a paper mill, safety is what I do, safety is who I am. That being said, when it comes to using any solid fuel appliance to heat a residence, there are certain requirements that MUST be met. Since this is the season of giving, I will share these with my fellow forumers free of charge. Feel free, however, to send anonymous donations. (Cash only, no checks, please)

1. Ask questions. Ask them only of knowledgable folk, like the ones here. Or, the old guy down the road that's been doing this for 82 years.
2. Pay attention to the answers.
3. Keep yer riggin' clean. This applies to ALL parts of the process, from acquisition to consumption.
4. Learn from your mistakes. Even after 1, 2, and 3, you WILL make them.
5. When in doubt, STOP. Repeat steps 1, 2, and 3.
6. Rely on un- common sense. (This used to be called "common sense", but that term no longer seems to fit)
7. Remember, "THIS AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE". You CAN do it.

andybaker · Dec 4, 2009

As well intended as you may be, this is trial and error. If you can't use your head you've got no business trying to be self reliant. Today there is more info than ever and the equipment is better than ever. I talk to people all the time about how to take care of their fireplaces and chimney. I share what I've learned and help when I can. For example, in my neighborhood the homes are around 20 years old and a lot of the fireplace chase caps are rusting out. A lot of people have weekend fires and never think about the chimney. As I talk to neighbors I'll point out potential problems and how to fix them. I had a stainless steel one made for like $125 and put on a stainless cap - no more worries, just check once a year that the screw heads are tarred over water tight. It probably sounds like I go around telling everyone what they need to do, I only mention it when it comes up. It comes up when a neighbor has have an entire chase tore down because it rotted out from neglect and others will talk about "what are they doing?" Point is, these people aren't going to look into safety, they don't care. Those of us that do care, we are always looking for a better way to invent the wheel anyway. Besides, a few mistakes along the way, that's the best lessons life can offer. I know you mean well, but I think it's unnecessary.

kenny chaos · Dec 4, 2009

AlexNY said:
Is wood heat behind the times when it comes to risk management, safe practices, and hazard mitigation? I work for the Department of Energy, and whenever any new energy technology is discussed, the very first thing on the agenda is safety and hazard management. If we as a community want wood heat to be taken seriously as a mainstream technology, should we not put safety and hazard management front and centre in everything we do? I can think of no other area of human endeavour about which so little is known regarding safety.

Fire risk information is likely adequate. Issues regarding management of smoke and chainsaw hazards are probably also OK, although I can find no centralized source that organizes existing information in the context of comprehensive wood heat safety, other than a rather old Canadian government publication.

There is virtually no information about wood splitting safety. My personal experience after years of wood splitting is that the standard two-handed overhead split stroke is extremely safe to the maul operator, and extremely hazardous to any by-standers or spectators. The orthogonal angle that is perfect for by-standers observing a wood split stroke is very likely to be showered with wood splinters, or crushed by a maul after a diverted glancing blow. The wood splitter is in some minor danger in cases where a short "chop" stroke is delivered to an almost-split round with one hand holding the handle near the wedge. Wedges, overhead hazards such as clothes lines, and eye protection all have safety issues associated with them. It would be nice if more information existed about this.

Drying wood in stacks are extremely hazardous to climbing children, and yet I have found exactly zero information about this anywhere. I had to find out through experience after a 7 foot wood stack crumbled in an unexpected way when I was adding to it, resulting in an injury to my leg. A small child could have been crushed by that same incident.

Hazards associated with burning cardboard, newspaper with coloured ink, bleached (white) paper, plasticized newspaper, plastics, rubbers, and CCA lumber (in rough order of least to most hazardous) are very hard to find, other than "collegial advice" and (yet again) a Canadian government pamphlet from many years ago that says "don't", but really does not explain why.

Hazards associated with inhaling or ingesting firewood ash are virtually non-existent. I did locate a study that showed that the lethal dose of ash from CCA lumber was small enough to send chills down my spine (my then 2 year old son could be in mortal danger from eating food without washing his hands after crawling around in an invisibly thin layer of ash from CCA lumber ... scary).

I wonder what, if anything, we as a community can do to address these questions that are necessary before wood heat could be considered a mainstream technology, rather than a fringe hobby of a few believers?

Just a thought.

You're talking to a different class of people here.
Agribusiness has tons of information and plenty of regulations and laws pertaining
to the proper disposal of massive amounts of xtra-toxic chemical containers, yet
most just have open air burns in a hedgerow when nobodies around.
Firewood burners on the other hand are generally more "green" and certainly
safety conscience except for the usual % of dolts.
The information you say doesn't exist makes me worry about alterior motives on your part.
There is so much info available from so many sources, you could write a book.
Sorry you hurt your leg.
It wasn't our fault.

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