Wood heat safety

Oh boy I could really get going on this.


I have been hazmat certified for over 18 years. Which means I had to have a 40hr class and then 8hr class every year to remain certified. While I understand the how what why and when of safety in a haze hazmat operation. I am willing to bet that 3/4 of the people taking refresher courses with me really understand what is going on its just a requirement.

Responsibly! It is up to each of us to take responsibility for what we do. Weather its a wood stove or driving a car. That includes taking tome to learn and UNDERSTAND what we are doing. Or being responsible for not learning.

As my grandpa said "Common Sense isn't so Common"

And yes this is a great form for those willing to ask questions and LEARN

Billy

The problems with treated lumber have been known for 30+ years. Since park rangers started coming down with severe nerve damage form building picnic tables from it.

The first soap was made from running water through ashes and adding animal fat.

andybaker said:

Point is, these people aren't going to look into safety, they don't care. Those of us that do care, we are always looking for a better way to invent the wheel anyway.

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Yes, I think little use will be made of additional resources by the people who most need them. It seems most folks who lack common sense (and I have to include myself to a degree) are in denial about that fact. It's very easy to take an "it can't happen to me attitude" whether driving a car or splitting and stacking wood. And while the occasional accident may happen while splitting or stacking, I can't see any regulations coming down the pike as a result. Regulators will be too busy measuring the carbon dioxide in my breath for some time to worry about my woodpile.

I read a story on this forum about a guy bleeding to death from a metal splinter flying off a wedge. While already very cautious when splitting with my son around, I now have this stored in my mind. Backing the minivan over a kid is also always in the back of my mind. But I choose to keep those things in mind, and certainly not because I sought information from an organization or website devoted solely to safety. I doubt if I would really use that type of resouce. The world is filled with more than enough misfortune and mistakes for all of us to learn all we need by just choosing to pay attention.

I suppose from a CYA standpoint there is no limit to the useful (and useless) information you could gather and present. But no warning on a ladder is ever going to keep some moron from misusing it and filing suit anyway, leading to more warnings telling us to read all warnings.

Too often in the replies I saw the words, "common sense" stated as though we all have it. That just isn't the case. Too many today have no sense, good or bad. As a society we expect someone else to take care of the details. Do our thing and not worry about the consequences. Well, we call it wood burning, the rest of the world calls it use of fire. They use it to warm themselves and cook their food and sometimes bring a little warmth to a bathe, but it is a basic part of all societies. In the World babies learn about fire. We so well advanced know nothing. Heat comes from throwing a switch, turning a knob, or moving a slide. Even on this forum many show their ignorance of heating basics. How often do we see people think they can stick a stove in their house and wonder why it won't heat their basement, or the master suite upstairs at the other end of the house. Then we get the ones who argue about how their 1.5cuft firebox will heat their 3,500 sqft just fine and get 12 hr burns to boot.

If you stuck the public down in front of a monitor and asked the to read this thread or any other on this site, then tell you what it means, you'd get a dumb-ass look back. Sorry to be blunt, but it is the truth. By comparison, a group of young women in Africa realized they were killing their families by the way they were cooking and designed a stove that amazed me in it's total simplicity and effectiveness. I am fairly sure they had never stepped in a classroom, except the big one called life.

My grandfather built his own home in the 1930's. Airtight superinsulated and heated by a "new fangeled natural gas furnace." On the coldest days he would fire up the "fireplace" when I was little. It would burn coal and wood and heated the house far better than the furnace. I never spent time with him to learn the why and wherefore. He was a cranky old German who went his own way, I now know the stove was a thermal mass stove that was two stories tall and about 10 x 5 ft. He didn't tell my dad, uncles or anyone else I know. That house is still there and the "fireplace" is never used. Very old technology lost.

I honestly think we have forgotten a lot more about heating with wood than we use. More because few care than a need to know. There is so much information that is totally decentralized. It's both good and bad and can be argued by all sides. To standardize that knowledge base would in my opinion be impossible. To regulate it would also be impossible. Right now no one knows how many households depend on wood for heat. How much the impact of "clamping down" on regulations would have, or even what regulations to mandate. In industry there is a thing called,"good practices" those things that are acceptable in the industry. We all know that to put your hand in a stamping machine in operation may result in physical damage, but one in ten have ever seen a stamping machine or even know what it does. The opposite is true about wood stoves, every one knows what they are and one in ten know how to make it work. The other nine think they do, and half of those will make a serious error and at best burn themselves and worst lose their life and that of others. The other half will pass on bad information to others about the right way to do things.

This site represents the best of a near hopeless situation. First we all need to get up to speed and then reach out to others.

Wood heating is not a fringe method, you radical gas burners, those who use electricity, and even the oil burners are the true minority. Taking us serious is simply a matter of us all saying I heat with wood, pellets, corn, biomass, etc.

I think we can tally the vote on this one. :lol:

I'm embarassed for the DOE.
-Kenny Chaos, CIA

woodjack said:

I think we can tally the vote on this one. :lol:

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I really don't know what to make of all the opinions on this thread. I am a fire chief and inspector. I enforce the codes. I lead men into dangerous situations where training and knowledge may make the difference as to whether they live or die. I have seen people with good common sense, good mechanical ability and savvy, and no knowledge of the codes and little training, do very well. In fact, they usually go beyond what is required. Same in the fire service. I have seen those who simply think they know more than the code makers, and say "I have always done it that way" and refuse to do things differently. I have seen those who you could give all the knowledge in the world and they "would not be able to see the forest for the trees".
Knowledge is only good if you seek it, and are willing and able to learn from it, and use it effectively. My point in all of this is that codes, standards and regulations are important. However, regulation has to stop somewhere. My first code book is 1/4 the size of the present one. You simply can not regulate stupid, and at some point, I believe that is what we are trying to do. So I guess you can tally my vote.

Alex--unfortunately, I think your point is lost on a huge number of the members here. As I understand it, you are simply pointing out that using wood heat is a poorly studied area in terms of safety, and suggesting that it might be a good idea for someone (not the Govt?) to pursue such an approach.

I agree with you completely, though since most folks here strive toward self-sufficiency, they automatically shout you down, because they perceive the government getting involved. I don't think that was your suggestion.

But even so, there should be more recommendations, or even rules, concerning safety, when it comes to wood heat.

It's interesting to go back and look at the controversy that arose when driver's licenses were first required. "What for?" people shouted. "It's just common sense. Anyone can drive a car."

Yet would many folks here feel comfortable letting people drive without any sort of approval/certification? I hope not.

I'm not saying there should be licensing or training for wood heat. Just saying that Alex makes a good point.

dave11 said:

Alex--unfortunately, I think your point is lost on a huge number of the members here. As I understand it, you are simply pointing out that using wood heat is a poorly studied area in terms of safety, and suggesting that it might be a good idea for someone (not the Govt?) to pursue such an approach.

I agree with you completely, though since most folks here strive toward self-sufficiency, they automatically shout you down, because they perceive the government getting involved. I don't think that was your suggestion.

But even so, there should be more recommendations, or even rules, concerning safety, when it comes to wood heat.

It's interesting to go back and look at the controversy that arose when driver's licenses were first required. "What for?" people shouted. "It's just common sense. Anyone can drive a car."

Yet would many folks here feel comfortable letting people drive without any sort of approval/certification? I hope not.

I'm not saying there should be licensing or training for wood heat. Just saying that Alex makes a good point.

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Thanks for explaining to all us dunmmies. Now we'll all repost
except the reposts would be the same.

Yes, we understand Alex's point and his good intentions.
Just please - NO MORE RULES & REGULATIONS. AND NO MORE GOVERNMENT!

lets all band together and make a contract agreement on proper toaster safety seems too many people are putting knives and things down in the openings to dig out toast remnants and getting jolted with 110volts,this needs addressed and we should start a forum on it and make government mandates we can never allow this tragedy to strike again.

dave11 said:

Alex--unfortunately, I think your point is lost on a huge number of the members here. As I understand it, you are simply pointing out that using wood heat is a poorly studied area in terms of safety, and suggesting that it might be a good idea for someone (not the Govt?) to pursue such an approach.

I agree with you completely, though since most folks here strive toward self-sufficiency, they automatically shout you down, because they perceive the government getting involved. I don't think that was your suggestion.

But even so, there should be more recommendations, or even rules, concerning safety, when it comes to wood heat.

It's interesting to go back and look at the controversy that arose when driver's licenses were first required. "What for?" people shouted. "It's just common sense. Anyone can drive a car."

Yet would many folks here feel comfortable letting people drive without any sort of approval/certification? I hope not.

I'm not saying there should be licensing or training for wood heat. Just saying that Alex makes a good point.

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Agree with you, Dave. It's amazing how many people read his post about assembling information and immediately jumped to the idea he was proposing government regulation.

But basically, I agree with the folks who point out that people either have common sense or they don't. The ones that do aren't going to go into wood burning for the first time without doing a heck of a lot of research, prowling the Web for information and hiring an experienced, knowledgeable installer. The ones who don't have common sense aren't going to go looking for safety information.

So I think an info site such as the OP proposes is probably a good idea and I hope somebody does it, but I don't think it will make a significant difference overall. Idiots will be idiots and do stupid things.

And speaking of which, it beats me how it would take a bad accident for it to occur to somebody that if a tall wood stack falls over, somebody might get hurt. As I build my stacks, I've been acutely aware from the start that my cats are addicted to jumping up on the tallest thing around, and also to diving after little mousies lurking in the lower parts of the stacks. I construct my stacks with that in mind. And anybody who picks up a maul for the first time in his/her life and doesn't look around for overhangs and other obstructions before swinging is beyond saving by any flyer or Web site.

What about the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)?

http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp?categoryID=1491&URL=Safety Information

I bought my house in '06 and it had a beautiful brick hearth in the basement room - one of the reasons I bought the house. I knew nothing about burning wood, but I was determined to have a woodstove for my first winter there. My friend had a boxwood stove that he sold to me for 150 bucks and I had my stepfather install it (yes, we observed clearances). I asked alot of questions that first year but in the back of my mind I knew that my setup had some control issues and I never left the side of that stove when it was lit. The next fall - that P.O.S. was sitting in my driveway and a brand new EPA stove was installed. Shortly after, I found this website and a huge amount of knowledge... I seeked out this knowledge, it didn't just magically appear. If someone doesn't have the interest of being safe with a chunk of iron burning at 600 degrees in their living room, there's nothing anyone can do to make that person safe.

Rob

it all comes down to accountability ,the info is all there but you gotta have the personal willpower to seek it out
something this country doesnt seem to know anymore as usual everyone wants a handout not a hand -up

Alex I apologize. I mixed you posts up with someone else's and thought you were advocating more regulation.


I will make the suggestion I made last year.

Make a simple one or two page flyer.

That we can print and had out. Keep it simple and interesting so it will be read. And reefer them back here if they want more in depth answers.


1) All wood had creosote. When you burn wet wood the water turns to steam. This steam attracts and holds the creosote in it. As it cools down going up the chimney it turns to water (still holding the creosote). When the water hits the inside of the cooler chimney it will stick to the inside of the chimney like fog an a car windshield. The water will evaporate off leaving the creosote in the chimney. By burning very wet wood you can get a 1/4 inch of creosote build up a day. So in five days you can have a 1 1/4" of creosote built up in the chimney. Creosote burns very hot. A 1 1/4 inch of creosote is enough to seriously damage a chimney or burn your house down. All it really takes to catch the creosote on fire is a good hot fire in the fireplace.

1b) Creosote is always building up in a chimney. By burning dry wood and having one hot fire every day. It burns off the creosote before there is enough there to cause damage. The difference is like crumpling up one sheet of paper and lighting it on the kitchen table. You probably will not hurt the table. But if you crumble up 30 sheets of paper and light it on the table you will probably burn it down.


2) Treated lumber has dangerous chemicals in it. These include Arsenic Pentoxide; Copper Oxide; and Chromium Trioxide. Some are just poison and some cause cancer. When you burn it some of the chemicals come out in the smoke and if you breathe it it is very bad. The rest stays in the ashes. A pop cap full of ashes can kill a young child.

(I could not find a MSDS on CCA lumber ash. So I do not know how much is IDLH. So I just made that part up)


3) Wood pile can be very unstable. A strong wind can knock them over. Children playing on the can cause them to fall down on top of them. Crushing or killing them.



Now if we can get a good list going. And some art work or cartoons to illustrate the points to keep it interesting. It will be read. And hopefully will be thought about before there is a accident.


Most people do not pay much attention to something until it is relevant to there life. And some just don't know a certain action can have a possibly hazards outcome.

Hopefully a person would read something like this and keep the knowledge in the back of their mind. And rather than looking out the back window and going Oh the kids are having fun on the woodpile. Go Oh I better get them off of there before they get hurt. Or better yet set up there woodpiles where it hard for the kids to get to.


Of coarse some people think they know it all and will never learn. But most just don't know. And feel they are too busy to take the time to learn until it is too late.

Billy

AlexNY said:

dave11 said:

As I understand it, you are simply pointing out that using wood heat is a poorly studied area in terms of safety, and suggesting that it might be a good idea for someone (not the Govt?) to pursue such an approach.

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Please, not government.

In a nutshell, I fear that if the wood heat community does nothing, government will be compelled to act.

I can see that most people on this board are pretty independent minded. That is just the kind of base which can form a strong citizen based non-government organization for promoting safety habits and safety culture.

Such an organization could do a lot to keep government out of our business ... and if things came to a head and new regulations were inevitable, such an organization would be in a good position to help shape those regulations.

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I do understand your point, but I think that Bart is correct, hearth.com is already "it" in a very practical sense. It does promote a safety culture in the most effective way: by not ramming it down people's throats. This place is the informal wood heat militia. As BeGreen suggested, it wouldn't be too hard to formalize a safety section within the site, giving links to stories and examples that folks could learn from. Even if nobody really used it, it would be there for the purpose you suggest. But many of us find the need to be organized in such a manner off-putting, regardless of the potential benefits (which I think are few, as the biggies like fire, smoke, CO, and chainsaw safety are well covered).

So yes, we shot the messenger for reminding us of a reality we dislike. The sentiment you are seeing here is mostly a reaction to the very idea "that if the wood heat community does nothing, government will be compelled to act." The ice-cream-eating community needs to organize to preserve its right to put on a few pounds. The coffee community, the right to burn a few tongues while getting wired. The guitar community, to get blistered fingers and damaged eardrums. Personally, I would suggest we all devote more energy to getting governments (and tort lawyers) off our backs than in bracing for the extra weight they want to pile on. Enough is enough.

branchburner said:

AlexNY said:

dave11 said:

As I understand it, you are simply pointing out that using wood heat is a poorly studied area in terms of safety, and suggesting that it might be a good idea for someone (not the Govt?) to pursue such an approach.

Click to expand...

Please, not government.

In a nutshell, I fear that if the wood heat community does nothing, government will be compelled to act.

I can see that most people on this board are pretty independent minded. That is just the kind of base which can form a strong citizen based non-government organization for promoting safety habits and safety culture.

Such an organization could do a lot to keep government out of our business ... and if things came to a head and new regulations were inevitable, such an organization would be in a good position to help shape those regulations.

Click to expand...

I do understand your point, but I think that Bart is correct, hearth.com is already "it" in a very practical sense. It does promote a safety culture in the most effective way: by not ramming it down people's throats. This place is the informal wood heat militia. As BeGreen suggested, it wouldn't be too hard to formalize a safety section within the site, giving links to stories and examples that folks could learn from. Even if nobody really used it, it would be there for the purpose you suggest. But many of us find the need to be organized in such a manner off-putting, regardless of the potential benefits (which I think are few, as the biggies like fire, smoke, CO, and chainsaw safety are well covered).

So yes, we shot the messenger for reminding us of a reality we dislike. The sentiment you are seeing here is mostly a reaction to the very idea "that if the wood heat community does nothing, government will be compelled to act." The ice-cream-eating community needs to organize to preserve its right to put on a few pounds. The coffee community, the right to burn a few tongues while getting wired. The guitar community, to get blistered fingers and damaged eardrums. Personally, I would suggest we all devote more energy to getting governments (and tort lawyers) off our backs than in bracing for the extra weight they want to pile on. Enough is enough.

Click to expand...

I think this organization may be closer to what Alex is talking about (WHO), although they lack a membership base and support.
About WHO
Who's Mission Statement

With all do respect to Craig and his great hearth.com web site and forum, he has no such mission statement (that I can find) and basically this site is run by and for profit. Nor do I see where or how Craig or this site has any influence or "lobby" with the government and legislators on our behalf.

Knowledge is power, baby! (my mother was a librarian). Add my voice to that of Dave and Gyrfalcon. when it comes to the message Alex was trying to convey. I know how to go about researching things and locating information and am savvy enough to find sources that are entertaining, as well as informative. I grew up in a family that put great stock in shutting your mouth, opening your ears, and asking questions when you didn't understand something. My lineage that was all about personal responsibility and accountability. If you screwed up, you owned up; end of story. And that's how I tend to view the world, too, so I'm definitely part of the "no more friggin' rules" crowd on many levels. But the more people are injured because of their own stupidity or failure to exercise due caution the more likely it will become that "regulation" will follow.

I am not sure how one would go about organizing and colating the "base information" required to safely heat with wood, however. I like the idea of limiting the information to what would fit on one sheet of paper (like a resume!). Getting the basics across before the attention span of some mouth-breathing fool runs out would be KEY to defining the success of the mission. Good luck with that!

I stumbled on Hearth.com purely by accident one day. And it's turned out to be great fun and very informative on a variety of levels. I've begun watching the performance of our stoves with a new appreciation because of my time here. I have always been a stickler for good safety precautions (I don't cook bacon when I'm naked and I don't put my fingers in front of the needles on my sewing machines) but understand that many are not. I know that every year people are injured or die because they decided to use lighter fluid to hasten the ignition in their wood stoves, stack wood too high never checking for stability, or suffer losses because of chimney fires. As stated, just because the information is readily availble (and fun/entertaining) doesn't mean those who need it most will ever bother to access it.

Interesting post.

I forgot to add Kudo's to Hearth.com, this site may not be perfect, but it contains a wealth of information. I grew up with a Fisher wood stove, have burned stoves all my life, and now actually work in the industry. I must say i have learned as much on this site as i have in the NFI classes & others at HPBA. There is a vast amount of info here to tap into. Thanks to the founders and all who contribute here. I recommend this site on a regular basis to my customers.