RE: So you think chimney fires are no big deal?
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colebrookman
Minister of Fire
Corriewf
New Member
I don't understand what you are trying to say? So are chimney fires bad? I mean technically the mobile home could have been a piece of crap and the second fire was to finish the job.
On a serious note, glad no one was home. Can replace things but not people.
On a serious note, glad no one was home. Can replace things but not people.
Slow1
Minister of Fire
Always a shame when things go wrong. Never will know the full story from the news media though - what exactly was the cause of the original or secondary fire etc. Nobody was at home during second fire - was that because they left after the first one due to damage/cold or was there nobody there the first time as well? Did the homeowners start another fire in the stove after the first fire then leave the house? Who knows...
Ahhh - and I like the "Expert" commentary posted by the reader in Boston who starts off saying he doesn't know squat about wood stoves then goes on to give advice.
Ahhh - and I like the "Expert" commentary posted by the reader in Boston who starts off saying he doesn't know squat about wood stoves then goes on to give advice.
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Yes, note that the story doesn't even say the fire was related to a wood stove - just that it was a chimney fire.... Could have been a malfunctioning fossil burner for all we know...
Gooserider
Gooserider
Gooserider said:
Possible . . . but I have to say I've never yet responded to a chimney fire caused by an oil furnace or oil boiler . . . and I have gone to many chimney fires.
That said, folks are correct . . . it doesn't say how the second fire started. My guess though (if I had to stake my paycheck on it) was that the firefighters probably missed a hot spot . . . it happens.
I would also say that if I was a betting man I would almost bet a second paycheck that this was not a proper mobile home install . . . having seen way too many hack-jobs done by poorer folks looking to stay warm as inexpensively as possible.
Jake, you say you have gone to "many chimney fires". Could you elaborate? The reason I ask is I live in wood burn central(rural heavily wooded area) and I still don't know anyone that has had a severe chimney fire nor do I recall reading about one in the local news. Maybe I'm just not well informed but I am curious as to the frequency and and cause of the many chimney fire you have had to deal with. Were they wood stoves? fireplaces ? Unlined masonry chimneys?firefighterjake said:
Maybe it has to do with people around here only burning hard woods. I have a neighbor a couple miles away that is a firefighter maybe I should ask him. Sorry for all the Q's but I figure you would be able to answer them.
Thanks
Joe
polaris said:
No problem Joe.
I suspect that up this away we have a few things which may contribute to many chimney fires:
1) Maine is one of the most heavily forested states in the continental US . . . and since we have no oil, natural gas or coal deposits the one thing we have been heating with since the colonial days is wood . . . even today woodstoves are very, very common. As a result you can generally find a woodstove for sale easily enough . . . and wood is plentiful.
2) Maine is not a very rich state . . . and so many of these poorer folks attempting to save on buying oil are running older woodstoves in older homes or trailers with set ups that may not be to code . . . or in some cases not even near semblance of code since oftentimes these were set up years ago . . . and in many areas fire inspectors are unheard of here in Maine. I would guess the majority of the bad chimney fires quite honestly are in older homes or trailers where folks have installed older woodstoves in what could at best be called "not quite up to code" installations -- the R value for the hearth is an afterthought (if thought at all), the stove is installed with clearance figures that were derived at the "It looks good and is probably safe there" determination and the chimney seems to most often be an unlined masonry chimney with a slammer type of install, lined masonry chimney (but the condition is questionable) or it is some mix mosh of single-wall pipe or perhaps double wall or maybe Class A . . . . but installed in some very funky and unsafe manner.
3) As mentioned, Maine is not a very well to do state . . . and in tough times some folks do what they need to do to get by . . . and that sometimes means buying unseasoned wood because they believe the guy selling the wood when he says it is seasoned . . . all they know is that the poster put up at the general store says the wood is seasoned and since it was $15 cheaper than the other guy it was a "good deal" and that's the wood they're burning. At the same time, many folks are cutting, splitting and burning wood that was cut just a couple of months ago . . . why . . . because that was the way their father and grandfather burned wood and it seemed to work for them . . . after awhile some just kind of consider chimney fires to be normal and expect it. I don't think it's the type of wood -- most folks here burn hardwood . . . but rather I think in many cases it's folks burning unseasoned wood thinking that this is normal.
That said, so far we've been lucky . . . I haven't heard of any chimney fires yet . . . but then again, until a few weeks back we've been having a mild Fall . . . and with heating oil prices relatively stable folks may have been using their oil. Generally, when I see chimney fires increase a) when the temps dip and folks start using the woodstove which they use infrequently (and check and clean out their chimneys even less frequently) and b) towards the middle and end of the burning season -- especially the end -- when folks have gone a long time without cleaning and in late Winter are really damping down their chimney.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Not being one of the guys with red trucks, I could easily be wrong, but I would expect that chimney fires w/ EPA stoves would be relatively minor and rare...
First off, because an EPA stove tends to burn cleaner, (Though not always given my experience w/ my VC) you get less crap built up in the chimney to burn.
Secondly though, and perhaps more importantly, the air getting into the chimney through an EPA stove is quite limited - On my VC, I'd estimate that the MAXIMUM air inlet cross section is 3-4 in² and most of that air has to travel through some seriously convoluted passages, then the firebox before it even gets to the chimney, which is going to restrict it's volume pretty seriously, and likely consume a lot of the oxygen in the air on the way... Compare this to the amount of air that can come through a fireplace or even one of the older (not-so) "airtight" stoves, and it would seem to me like it would be a lot harder to get a major chimney fire, just because you can't have a fire w/o oxygen...
This is one of the biggest arguments I can see in favor of keeping the stove door shut if the fecal material does hit the rotary air circulator....
Of course this doesn't do anything to prevent a fire on the OUTSIDE of the chimney caused by a poor install, i.e. passing black steel stovepipe through a combustible wall...
Gooserider
First off, because an EPA stove tends to burn cleaner, (Though not always given my experience w/ my VC) you get less crap built up in the chimney to burn.
Secondly though, and perhaps more importantly, the air getting into the chimney through an EPA stove is quite limited - On my VC, I'd estimate that the MAXIMUM air inlet cross section is 3-4 in² and most of that air has to travel through some seriously convoluted passages, then the firebox before it even gets to the chimney, which is going to restrict it's volume pretty seriously, and likely consume a lot of the oxygen in the air on the way... Compare this to the amount of air that can come through a fireplace or even one of the older (not-so) "airtight" stoves, and it would seem to me like it would be a lot harder to get a major chimney fire, just because you can't have a fire w/o oxygen...
This is one of the biggest arguments I can see in favor of keeping the stove door shut if the fecal material does hit the rotary air circulator....
Of course this doesn't do anything to prevent a fire on the OUTSIDE of the chimney caused by a poor install, i.e. passing black steel stovepipe through a combustible wall...
Gooserider
quads
Minister of Fire
We had many chimney fires when I was a kid. Masonry chimney, pre-EPA stove of course, many days Dad and I would cut the oak firewood during the day and feed it to the stove that night, sometimes the creosote would drip out of the pipe thimble and run down the paneling on the wall behind the stove. We never lost the house, but the chimney didn't like it very much. Eventually the creosote could be seen seeping out of the pores in the bricks and mortar (it was an external chimney).polaris said:
To this day, when I listen to the police scanner, the local fire departments are paged out to several chimney fires every winter. They were just paged to one a couple nights ago.
littlesmokey
Minister of Fire
Don't want to start interstate disputes, but check out the first comment... What is a person like that reading Maine news anyway. That's worse than our Craig'sList Rant and Raves.
Article clearly says chimney fire, recall within a couple of hours later, the home burned to the ground. Had there been someone home they may have caught it in time to save the home or lose their lives. I think it goes to show how dangerous chimney fires are.
Article clearly says chimney fire, recall within a couple of hours later, the home burned to the ground. Had there been someone home they may have caught it in time to save the home or lose their lives. I think it goes to show how dangerous chimney fires are.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
littlesmokey said:
OP lives in Maine per his avatar info, I'd kind of expect him to read Maine news... Extra likelyhood seeing as how he's a fire fighter, and this was a "work related" topic... As far as the article comment poster, I agree seems odd, unless he was traveling or a former Maniac...
Gooserider
littlesmokey
Minister of Fire
Gooserider said:
Goose:
I apo;ogize if I was not clear. I was speaking about the first commenter on the article. She/he is from Mass. My comments weren't about the original poster, or the writer, but the commenter. Trying not to offend anyone, or get attention away from the issue.
Chimney fires are dangerous in Maine or Mass.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
littlesmokey said:
No biggy, I agree the first commenter on the article was a bit of a twit IMHO...
Gooserider
colebrookman
Minister of Fire
Just to clarify my comment. Most fire depts. have and use thermal imaging cameras to see hot spots in walls, around chimneys etc. without creating additional damage to the structure. We use them all the time at chimney fires but there are some firefighters that have no need for them. I was responding to "firefighterjakes" comment of "oops", maybe they should have checked a little closer. But many trailers have double roofs, hidden attic spaces and often little insulation which makes finding hidden pockets of fire very difficult. Newspaper articles make it difficult to really know what happened and in retrospect I should not have made that off the cuff comment to "firefighterjake". I'm sorry for the confusion. Be safe.colebrookman said:
Ed
colebrookman said:
Aw c'mon Ed . . . I'm a firefighter . . . I'm used to not bringing my Feeling to work.
You should know me better than that. I didn't really even think about your comment. Yes . . . it is a bit surprising . . . since many FDs up this way have TICs . . . but as you mentioned even with the best tech you still need to do some things the old fashioned way and even then all it takes sometimes is that one hidden ember.
littlesmokey said:
I kind of figured you were talking about the post from the Massachusetts guy . . . no offense taken . . . besides you would have to do much better than that to aggravate me.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
Course on the flip side, I've encountered a few fire fighters that seemed all to anxious to use those big shiny axes... Several years back I was living in an apartment building, and the lady next door threw the plastic tray off her kid's high-chair up on the still hot stove... Naturally it melted and started making major smoke, setting off the alarms and so forth... We all went out in the halls and were reassured by the lady that it wasn't a major issue, and that everything was under control... In order to keep the smoke from spreading any worse in the building we suggested that she open all her outside doors and windows, while closing the apartment door to keep the smoke out of the hall...
About this time, around 10 minutes after the central station wired alarm went off, the local FD guys showed up from the FD station that was literally next door. The lady tried to explain what was going on, though maybe saying she'd set her kids high chair on fire wasn't the best way to start, and she'd be happy to show them that there wasn't a problem, and NO YOU DON'T NEED TO BREAK THE DOOR DOWN! Just give her a second to unlock it with the key... I swear the FD guy was downright disappointed not to have had a chance to use his ax... They brought up the fans and ventilated the place for a few minutes - end of story, other than to say that ever since I've wondered when I see "Fire Department Damage" how much is absolutely legit fire control, and how much is just "joy of demo" in action....
(Nothing personal intended, just a general observation....)
Gooserider
About this time, around 10 minutes after the central station wired alarm went off, the local FD guys showed up from the FD station that was literally next door. The lady tried to explain what was going on, though maybe saying she'd set her kids high chair on fire wasn't the best way to start, and she'd be happy to show them that there wasn't a problem, and NO YOU DON'T NEED TO BREAK THE DOOR DOWN! Just give her a second to unlock it with the key... I swear the FD guy was downright disappointed not to have had a chance to use his ax... They brought up the fans and ventilated the place for a few minutes - end of story, other than to say that ever since I've wondered when I see "Fire Department Damage" how much is absolutely legit fire control, and how much is just "joy of demo" in action....
(Nothing personal intended, just a general observation....)
Gooserider
Having lived a number years in a early 80's mobile home, using a wood stove for primary heat, I always had a gremlin gnawing at the back of my mind weather it would still be there when I got off of work. I never had a chimney fire ( well never anything that sounded like a train roarng past), although I did perhaps over fire the stove at least once, didn't know it until I turned the lights out in that room and the stack inside (insulated double wall) was glowing red, I had insulated triple above that. All told the length was maybe about 12 ft of stack. Shortly after that escapade, the home kitty corner to mine went up in flames ( electrical short I was told). It was pretty much gone in about an hour, I couldn't leave as I was blocked in by the fire equipment so just watched the follies.
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