This is to stir the pot. read and look at the nice pictures. Pellet Pigs beware.

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Actually fossil there is also a theory that most of the petroleum is actually produced by bacteria and is far more recent than 300 million years age, and if you take a really good look around you might discover that methane (natural gas) is also frequently of more recent manufacture. I know of several abandoned and capped land fill/ dumps that are producing more than a little bit. I won't bother to mention all of the other possibilities.

Coal, does take awhile to produce but then it was trees etc.. at one time.

No matter what you decide to oxidize if it contains carbon it isn't carbon neutral.

The only possible way that we obtain more carbon is via impacts of extraterrestrial objects, what we have now will likely still be here a long time from now (the earth undergoing complete consumption from very hot items such as the sun excepted) and still slowly changing in its chemical bonding with other elements.

The bottom line on all of this is that all 6+ billion of us now on this planet will one day be fuel.
 
SmokeyTheBear said:
fossil said:
SmokeyTheBear said:
Well coal is as renewable and as carbon neutral as pellets are.
Click to expand...

Please educate me on that one. I see where there are lots of trees growing from saplings (renewal/replacement of the source for pellets), but I've never seen where there are "coal farms" where coal is being formed. As I understand it, for all practical purposes, coal is not a renewable resource...just as oil is not a renewable resource. What there is of it is what there is of it, and there will never be any more of it...at least not in any sort of timeframe that anyone can grasp. We don't produce oil or coal, we just extract it and use it up. Neither of these resources is inexhaustible, nor is either renewable. One day there will be no more of either one that's within our power to access...and we can't produce any more. Rick
Click to expand...

You'll just have to wait until mother nature finishes processing all of those peat bogs.

People have such a warped perception of time, they seem to think that replacement must be immediate or within their life time.

The planet will do it eventually just like it has already done and is doing right now.
Click to expand...
 
IIRC from my childhood anthracite is a very hard coal... burns very clean compared to soft caol. It's mined primarily in north central PA and is taken from underground mines... no mountains lost their tops going after anthracite. My Dad always bought anthracite... I remember helping him shovel coal into our furnace and I also remember the happy day when he installed an "automatic stoker".

The mines are also very small, primarily run by family operations barely eeking out a living doing what the parents and grandparents did... mine coal. The big mining companies have long abandoned the remaining hard coal reserves of PA.

here's a compelling photo collection about the hard coal miners in PA... many one man operations...

http://www.f-stop16.com/abe/
 
mapezzul said:
interchangabLEE said:
mapezzul said:
Coal is great for heat, but it is not a renewable resource- pillaging the ground and leaving mountains without tops is not great either. The other big issue is ash: these things leave fly ash everywhere and produce ash that is not good for plants or animals.... so in the end it is cheaper to run but has other costs.

-M
Click to expand...

AH yes the poopoo police!
So instead of burning coal you make all kinds of consumer trash and pillage the ground with it leaving poisonous methane belching mountains in your wake! %-P
When you recycle 100% then you can preach about coal.

Now, to get back on track with this thread.
When I can no longer burn wood I'll be down to snag one of those heat monsters. Quite a few of my older wood customers have gone to stoves like this model and love them. Put me on the list for one in say, about 25 years.
Click to expand...

Actually I do recycle 90% thanks, I compost everything I can (naturemill produces dirt every week) and if were not for some things not being recyclable it would be 100%. Look at the ash content of your coal- and tell me where you are safely going to use that much on your property- while yes it has safe recyclable purposes the avg. home owner can not do it, excess is toxic and that was my point.

I am not a tree hugger I just believe in sustainability and that is a HUGE difference. If I was a tree hugger I would be touting solar or wind power; and that is not what I am saying. I am sorry some people just don't get it and while yes china is an issue the US still produces more emissions than all other countries. I rather not deplete things we can't put back that is all. And no I do not drive a hybrid as those are even worse considering how they make the batteries.

For what is worth, coal is great just produces too much ash for private use compared to alternatives- and yes fly ash gets everywhere go to someone's house that has one and ask how often they dust- the ash is so light that no matter what you do every time you open the thing up it will migrate.

I have witnessed many of these things to know it is not right for most. I am not going to be attacked here and will say this is my last commentary on this, some people are just stuck in the past.
Click to expand...

Coal produces too much ash for private use ???? That's news to me. It actually makes less ash than wood. Your friend that burns coal that has a problem with ash or dust is burning or emptying his ash the wrong way.


Deplete things you can't put back in the ground????????? How about the copper in all the appliances in your house or better yet how about the copper in the power plant you get electric from.
How about the diamond you put on your wifes finger?
How about the steel your car is made of?
How about the toilet paper you wiped your azz with?
I culd go on.
You really culd ultimately recycle this stuff but will you put it back in the ground where it came from? Me dohn tink so!
No one has any right to come here and poopoo someone elses fuel source.
We're all in the same boat together so don't tell me my way of rowing sucks when the oar doesn't even fit in your hand! Ifn you know what aye mean!
 
interchangabLEE said:
mapezzul said:
interchangabLEE said:
mapezzul said:
Coal is great for heat, but it is not a renewable resource- pillaging the ground and leaving mountains without tops is not great either. The other big issue is ash: these things leave fly ash everywhere and produce ash that is not good for plants or animals.... so in the end it is cheaper to run but has other costs.

-M
Click to expand...

AH yes the poopoo police!
So instead of burning coal you make all kinds of consumer trash and pillage the ground with it leaving poisonous methane belching mountains in your wake! %-P
When you recycle 100% then you can preach about coal.

Now, to get back on track with this thread.
When I can no longer burn wood I'll be down to snag one of those heat monsters. Quite a few of my older wood customers have gone to stoves like this model and love them. Put me on the list for one in say, about 25 years.
Click to expand...

Actually I do recycle 90% thanks, I compost everything I can (naturemill produces dirt every week) and if were not for some things not being recyclable it would be 100%. Look at the ash content of your coal- and tell me where you are safely going to use that much on your property- while yes it has safe recyclable purposes the avg. home owner can not do it, excess is toxic and that was my point.

I am not a tree hugger I just believe in sustainability and that is a HUGE difference. If I was a tree hugger I would be touting solar or wind power; and that is not what I am saying. I am sorry some people just don't get it and while yes china is an issue the US still produces more emissions than all other countries. I rather not deplete things we can't put back that is all. And no I do not drive a hybrid as those are even worse considering how they make the batteries.

For what is worth, coal is great just produces too much ash for private use compared to alternatives- and yes fly ash gets everywhere go to someone's house that has one and ask how often they dust- the ash is so light that no matter what you do every time you open the thing up it will migrate.

I have witnessed many of these things to know it is not right for most. I am not going to be attacked here and will say this is my last commentary on this, some people are just stuck in the past.
Click to expand...

Coal produces too much ash for private use ???? That's news to me. It actually makes less ash than wood. Your friend that burns coal that has a problem with ash or dust is burning or emptying his ash the wrong way.


Deplete things you can't put back in the ground????????? How about the copper in all the appliances in your house or better yet how about the copper in the power plant you get electric from.
How about the diamond you put on your wifes finger?
How about the steel your car is made of?
How about the toilet paper you wiped your azz with?
I culd go on.
You really culd ultimately recycle this stuff but will you put it back in the ground where it came from? Me dohn tink so!
No one has any right to come here and poopoo someone elses fuel source.
We're all in the same boat together so don't tell me my way of rowing sucks when the oar doesn't even fit in your hand! Ifn you know what aye mean!
Click to expand...

Actually, we do have the "right" to offer an opinion on stoves/fuels/carbon/coal/wood/oil etc. because this is still freakin America...and, speech is still FREE here. The owner of this site can tell us otherwise because he is "FREE" to what he wants with his site, but you can't.
 
yes coal does produce more heat but as a child rember my father trying like heck to get it to burn right and a lot of f- bombs. myself i like to just drop a 40# bag of fule in and no wories. that is the main reason why i went to a pellet stove. grew up with both log and coal stoves and by far the pellet is less time comsuming. just my thaughts,everyone has their best choice to heat. happy heating and merry christmas.
 
interchangabLEE said:
You can offer your opinion all you want but don't tell someone they're raping the land because they burn coal.
Click to expand...

Again, it's about opinion.
 
NH Pellet Head said:
interchangabLEE said:
You can offer your opinion all you want but don't tell someone they're raping the land because they burn coal.
Click to expand...

Again, it's about opinion.
Click to expand...

Damn, how can you seem so reasonable here, and rant off the rail in the Ash Can? I don't get it, or is there a special medication?
 
krooser said:
IIRC from my childhood anthracite is a very hard coal... burns very clean compared to soft caol. It's mined primarily in north central PA and is taken from underground mines... no mountains lost their tops going after anthracite. My Dad always bought anthracite... I remember helping him shovel coal into our furnace and I also remember the happy day when he installed an "automatic stoker".

The mines are also very small, primarily run by family operations barely eeking out a living doing what the parents and grandparents did... mine coal. The big mining companies have long abandoned the remaining hard coal reserves of PA.

Take a lok at this story abd read down... it explains the state of the US athracite coal industry.
Click to expand...

I'm with you, Krooser. Just a couple of corrections. Up in the 'coal regions' of Pa, there WAS some strip mining but not anymore and those areas are reforested and you can't tell what happened there. Anthracite is/was mined heavily in West Virginia too. That's were my grandfather came as a young boy from Slovakia (Austria Hungary at that time) to be a breaker boy with his uncles. They all except my grandfather will killed in the biggest mining disaster in US history about 1907, I believe. Anyway, you're right that it is mostly small operations now in Pa. My brother in law has one of the new breed of stoker stoves for his house and loves it. Very efficient. Very clean and no hassle. He gets his own coal from the breaker houses in Pottsville area.
 
littlesmokey said:
NH Pellet Head said:
interchangabLEE said:
You can offer your opinion all you want but don't tell someone they're raping the land because they burn coal.
Click to expand...

Again, it's about opinion.
Click to expand...

Damn, how can you seem so reasonable here, and rant off the rail in the Ash Can? I don't get it, or is there a special medication?
Click to expand...

What is the ash can? Did I rant?
 
littlesmokey said:
NH Pellet Head said:
interchangabLEE said:
You can offer your opinion all you want but don't tell someone they're raping the land because they burn coal.
Click to expand...

Again, it's about opinion.
Click to expand...

Damn, how can you seem so reasonable here, and rant off the rail in the Ash Can? I don't get it, or is there a special medication?
Click to expand...

littlesmokey, I think you're mistaking NH Pellet Head for MainePellethead...two entirely different species. Rick
 
fossil said:
littlesmokey said:
NH Pellet Head said:
interchangabLEE said:
You can offer your opinion all you want but don't tell someone they're raping the land because they burn coal.
Click to expand...

Again, it's about opinion.
Click to expand...

Damn, how can you seem so reasonable here, and rant off the rail in the Ash Can? I don't get it, or is there a special medication?
Click to expand...

littlesmokey, I think you're mistaking NH Pellet Head for MainePellethead...two entirely different species. Rick
Click to expand...

Man, that's a relief. NHPellet head, I am so very sorry about that accusation. I get a little confused with those NewEngland states. Not only that I thought I was having the biggest senior moment of my life. Again, what a relief. Now if I can find my way back to the home?????
 
The big question is............. does anthracite coal have heavy metals like their softer cousin?
 
Apparently ours doesn't. It is approved for burning in the Los Angeles basin and south. I can't imagine heavy metals would get by them, I think that's what killed the use of our bit. coal. I could be wrong.
 
littlesmokey said:
fossil said:
littlesmokey said:
NH Pellet Head said:
interchangabLEE said:
You can offer your opinion all you want but don't tell someone they're raping the land because they burn coal.
Click to expand...

Again, it's about opinion.
Click to expand...

Damn, how can you seem so reasonable here, and rant off the rail in the Ash Can? I don't get it, or is there a special medication?
Click to expand...

littlesmokey, I think you're mistaking NH Pellet Head for MainePellethead...two entirely different species. Rick
Click to expand...

Man, that's a relief. NHPellet head, I am so very sorry about that accusation. I get a little confused with those NewEngland states. Not only that I thought I was having the biggest senior moment of my life. Again, what a relief. Now if I can find my way back to the home?????
Click to expand...

Don't worry, apparently there is a "special medication" ;) No harm, no foul. I did take a look at the Ash Can...and, wow! That is some weird conversation.
 
Take a look at this photo story of BIG COAL in PA... it may change a few minds about the subject, Read the captions...

http://www.f-stop16.com/abe/
 
Nice heat and cheaper than pellets but dirty for the delivery guy. One time it was dusty the other time it was covered in oil. A friend had the right idea buy 1 ton rated bags off ebay and have them bulk filled then delivered with a bobcat. I will stick to pellets sawdust dosn't bother me much. Nice stove though. Does it run on a thermostat?
 
When I was a kid I thought the neatest job in the wrld was a coal delivery guy... hoisting 100# canvas sacks of coal on your shoulder and dumping them into the coal chute outside my house... they drove International KB-8 trucks and the company was Schneider Fuel and Supply in Milwaukee. The coal was called "Hot Spot-Red Hot"
 
krooser said:
When I was a kid I thought the neatest job in the wrld was a coal delivery guy... hoisting 100# canvas sacks of coal on your shoulder and dumping them into the coal chute outside my house... they drove International KB-8 trucks and the company was Schneider Fuel and Supply in Milwaukee. The coal was called "Hot Spot-Red Hot"
Click to expand...

The last coal delivery I had it was back up to the cellar window, insert chute and raise dump body. 10 ton went into the bin inside of a few minutes.
 
Coal is completely unavailable in the West (except charcoal for my barbecue)... so this won't catch on here.
 
krooser said:
Take a look at this photo story of BIG COAL in PA... it may change a few minds about the subject, Read the captions...

http://www.f-stop16.com/abe/
Click to expand...

Yep, it's a very, very tough, dangerous life. That's where the Molly Maguire's came from. As I said earlier, I lost many relatives in W. Va. at a disaster that killed over 600 people, probably many more, but they didn't count a lot of the laborer's and their kids, who helped. If my grandfather hadn't been sick that day, I wouldn't be here. Now some may say that was a stroke of BAD luck, but.................. here I am.
 
I would like to add a few comments and opinion about coal.

A couple years ago, I have had the opportunity to visit the Black Country Living Museum and the town of Ironbridge in the West Midlands in the UK. It has made me understand all the historical importance of coal from the earliest days of industrialisation and the said revolution it created.

When I returned home, I have had discussions about coal and was led to read the book Coal: A Humand History, from Barbara Freese. You need only reading the first few pages to get a very good idea what the author has to say. The foremost interesting fact explained is that on our planet, only one source of "real" energy exist, and it is the sun.

Her analogy I liked the most compared energy needs and monetary needs. She's saying that, in the banking system, you can have operations accounts and savings accounts. With the energy, its the same: an operations account is like biomass use and a savings account is fossil stuff.

What I would like our world to move towards is satisfy our basic needs of energy from "operations account" and keep the fossil energy (our savings) when there are tougher times, considering coal is easier to obtain (you don't have to wait for it to grow or to harvest it at a limited yield per acre).

Whenever one would have the option of choosing between renewables and fossil, the easy and obvious choice should go to renewables. If the choice towards renewables is not made easy nor obvious, that means the obstacle is what we need to improve for the future.

As far as prices are concerned, fossil energy prices can only go up and renewable energy prices can only go down. Said by Hermann Scheer, the German SPD politician who led to the EEG (Renewable Energy Law) adoption in 1999.

Thanks,

Ben
 
I know people using rice coal stoves that love them. We were considering them instead of our 2nd pellet stove (for 2nd house), but as we aren't there full-time, using a coal stove doesn't make sense. But when we do get to live there full time (retirement), then we're thinking a coal stove would be good for the basement. With the extra ash, not sure I want it in the living space, which isn't all that big. Then we'd have an oil furnace (separate heat zone on each floor - basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor), coal stove to supplement heat in the basement, pellet stove on the 1st floor supplementing the oil furnace for the rest of the living space. Three different fuels seems like a good idea, chances are all 3 won't be in short supply at the same time.
 
You were doing fine right up until here "As far as prices are concerned, fossil energy prices can only go up and renewable energy prices can only go down. Said by Hermann Scheer, the German SPD politician who led to the EEG (Renewable Energy Law) adoption in 1999."

You should note that price is primarily related to how many produce an item and further that as a new "industry" matures there are actually fewer and fewer producers it is not in their best interests ($$$$) too let prices drop.

Sorry folks that is just human nature writ large corporation.
 
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