How can I retain more heat?

Corriewf · Dec 30, 2009

Heating half my house with a vogelzang colonial. The half of the house I am heating with it is constructed with cinderblock. The walls are just as cold as could be. I can get it up 70-72 BUT as soon as I start losing some heat output from the stove, I drop fast. The windows are old but I do have storm windows so that helps, I put rubber air stoppers on the doors.. Are there any tips or tricks anyone out there can give me to help? There is not enough crawl space under the house or in the attic so adding insulation there is very hard to add. Anything I can do?

fossil · Dec 30, 2009

Furr out the cinder block walls, insulate, and clad with drywall or paneling. All elec boxes will have to be extended. Big job, but I don't know what else to suggest to stop the heat loss out through the masonry. Rick

(Movin' this to the DIY forum)

begreen · Dec 30, 2009

Insulation can be blown into the the attic. Crawl spaces can be dug out, though be careful that house remains very well supported while doing this, maybe a quadrant at a time.

Have to say though you can only do so much. If the house is not worth deep investment, at some point it makes more sense to do a fresh start with a house that has good bones in a good location.

Corriewf · Dec 30, 2009

fossil said:
Furr out the cinder block walls, insulate, and clad with drywall or paneling. All elec boxes will have to be extended. Big job, but I don't know what else to suggest to stop the heat loss out through the masonry. Rick

(Movin' this to the DIY forum)

Sorry, but what do you mean by furr out? I like the idea you have, just trying to get my head around it. I thought about doing the drywall before. This part of the house goes back to 1948. I probably need to rewire this part of the house anyway. Although being laid off, I have plenty of time but little money.

Corriewf · Dec 30, 2009

BeGreen said:
Insulation can be blown into the the attic. Crawl spaces can be dug out, though be careful that house remains very well supported while doing this, maybe a quadrant at a time.

Have to say though you can only do so much. If the house is not worth deep investment, at some point it makes more sense to do a fresh start with a house that has good bones in a good location.

I wouldn't dig it out. This house already has some settling issues. Upstairs it has a fun house feel to it. The house is paid for and worth a lot less if I move out. I have thought about it, but just isn't feasible. It belonged to my Grandparents. In the last 3 years I have already invested 50k+....

fossil · Dec 30, 2009

I'm assuming you're talking about cinder block walls all the way up, so that inside the room, the windows are set into cinder block exterior walls, and the cinder block is just painted...am I picuring this correctly? If so, then what I mean by furring them out is attachimg vertical wood (or metal) "studs" to the cinder block from floor to ceiling, placed 16" on centers. The thickness of the furring depends on how much insulation you want to apply. Box extenders are available for all electrical boxes, and typically there's enough slack in the wires so little or no actual wiring need be done (depends, of course on how deep you want to furr and what you find when you open the boxes). Then install the insulation, then drywall or panel it. Voila! A slightly smaller room with newly insulated exterior walls and a whole new look. Some clever trim work around the windows, new baseboard, etc. I imagine that with a few google searches along the DIY lines for finishing basements & stuff will lead you to all sorts of pics and tips and such on furring out a masonry wall. It's very commonly done to finish below-grade basements. Good luck! Rick

(Not sure how this got into the Green Room, I could've sworn I put it in DIY. Maybe BeGreen re-moved it, dunno.)

EatenByLimestone · Dec 30, 2009

Furring out is using 2x to build a wall inside of the cement block one. You can insulate the new wall easily and overlay it with drywall.

Matt

benjamin · Dec 31, 2009

What's on the outside of that cinderblock?

I might consider putting a foam-synthetic stucco finish on the outside of the cinderblock, or foam and some other siding over it.

I've read about some nano-ceramic-r-value-paint, don't laugh, it supposedly works as advertised, not a great r value, but it was enough to pass the inspection.

The most cost effective way to save heat is almost always sealing up the air leaks. Start in the attic with a can of expanding foam, actually a box of cans. Find every drywall seam, wire, pipe and other hole in your cieling and plug them. Then go down to the sill plate and do the same thing with foam or caulk. Then if you feel like it blow cellulose in the walls to seal them up as best you can. Also check window and door weatherstripping of course.

Corriewf · Dec 31, 2009

fossil said:
I'm assuming you're talking about cinder block walls all the way up, so that inside the room, the windows are set into cinder block exterior walls, and the cinder block is just painted...am I picuring this correctly? If so, then what I mean by furring them out is attachimg vertical wood (or metal) "studs" to the cinder block from floor to ceiling, placed 16" on centers. The thickness of the furring depends on how much insulation you want to apply. Box extenders are available for all electrical boxes, and typically there's enough slack in the wires so little or no actual wiring need be done (depends, of course on how deep you want to furr and what you find when you open the boxes). Then install the insulation, then drywall or panel it. Voila! A slightly smaller room with newly insulated exterior walls and a whole new look. Some clever trim work around the windows, new baseboard, etc. I imagine that with a few google searches along the DIY lines for finishing basements & stuff will lead you to all sorts of pics and tips and such on furring out a masonry wall. It's very commonly done to finish below-grade basements. Good luck! Rick

(Not sure how this got into the Green Room, I could've sworn I put it in DIY. Maybe BeGreen re-moved it, dunno.)

Damn Fossil, that is a pretty smart idea. I asked a contractor buddy of mine and he said there wasn't much I could do. I am in the process of changing the electrical outlets to those new built in child proof ones. The current ones don't even have a ground.

Corriewf · Dec 31, 2009

benjamin said:
What's on the outside of that cinderblock?

I might consider putting a foam-synthetic stucco finish on the outside of the cinderblock, or foam and some other siding over it.

I've read about some nano-ceramic-r-value-paint, don't laugh, it supposedly works as advertised, not a great r value, but it was enough to pass the inspection.

The most cost effective way to save heat is almost always sealing up the air leaks. Start in the attic with a can of expanding foam, actually a box of cans. Find every drywall seam, wire, pipe and other hole in your cieling and plug them. Then go down to the sill plate and do the same thing with foam or caulk. Then if you feel like it blow cellulose in the walls to seal them up as best you can. Also check window and door weatherstripping of course.

Right now it has some old aluminum siding with cedar siding on top of that. The cedar siding has gotten quite old and needs replacing in some parts. We have thought about replacing parts of it and painting it. Would definitely like to hear about this foam stucco or nano-ceramic paint.

blades · Dec 31, 2009

Ceramic paint- works by reflection of radiated heat.

SolarAndWood · Dec 31, 2009

There is an old section of my house of similar vintage and construction. I know what you mean about the temperature of those walls. If the siding has to be done anyway and the interior is finished, i would foam the outside. It is a much cleaner project and you don't lose any floor space. 2" of high density foam board gets you R13 with no gaps. It is a little over a buck a sq ft at the big box stores. You can then side over it however you want. Not sure what accepted practice is in your climate, but a layer of Tyvek in addition to the foam might help as well.

DBoon · Dec 31, 2009

If the outside siding needs replacement anyways, then putting foam over the outside is probably better. Note that putting some types of siding right over foam panels is not recommended (some siding needs an air gap between the foam and the siding).

If you furr out the inside walls, I would use two furring strips running at 90 degree angles to each other. You'll have less thermal bridging that way. Or, put a 1" layer of foam over the inside walls, then furr on top of that (with furring strips attached through the foam into the block), then additional fiberglass or foam insulation between the furring strips. With block walls, thermal bridging is your enemy you want to eliminate that.

benjamin · Dec 31, 2009

2" of pink costs about $18 around here for 4'x8' sheet. If willing to go to the trouble, that's the way to go. Put the furring strips over it with long screws or small diameter lag bolts, and use the siding of your choice. The windows will be a pain to trim.

Synthetic stucco is an acylic cement stucco that goes on thin over foam. It's gotten a bad reputation because of careless contractors who recessed the windows with no regard to raintightness, it also forms a vapor barrier which you definitely don't want on the outside of an insulated wall with a vapor barrier on the inside as well, especially in the north.

In your case there is no vapor barrier, your wall is not insulated and your wall is not made out of mushroom food. You'd still want to pay attention to the details, but it's not as risky as the bad installations that are out there.

Traditional stucco can also be put over foam with some sort of lath.

One of the reasons I mentioned insulating the outside is if you can insulate the whole outside of that wall it will make the room very stable temperature wise because of the heat stored and released by the mass of the wall.

begreen · Dec 31, 2009

Corriewf said:
BeGreen said:

Insulation can be blown into the the attic. Crawl spaces can be dug out, though be careful that house remains very well supported while doing this, maybe a quadrant at a time.

Have to say though you can only do so much. If the house is not worth deep investment, at some point it makes more sense to do a fresh start with a house that has good bones in a good location.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't dig it out. This house already has some settling issues. Upstairs it has a fun house feel to it. The house is paid for and worth a lot less if I move out. I have thought about it, but just isn't feasible. It belonged to my Grandparents. In the last 3 years I have already invested 50k+....

Jacking up the house to level, setting it on temporary cribbing, then digging out and getting a proper footing under the house perimeter + good inner supports, may be exactly what it needs. Otherwise the 'settling' can continue and get worse.

Corriewf · Jan 1, 2010

BeGreen said:
Corriewf said:

BeGreen said:

Insulation can be blown into the the attic. Crawl spaces can be dug out, though be careful that house remains very well supported while doing this, maybe a quadrant at a time.

Have to say though you can only do so much. If the house is not worth deep investment, at some point it makes more sense to do a fresh start with a house that has good bones in a good location.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't dig it out. This house already has some settling issues. Upstairs it has a fun house feel to it. The house is paid for and worth a lot less if I move out. I have thought about it, but just isn't feasible. It belonged to my Grandparents. In the last 3 years I have already invested 50k+....

Click to expand...

Jacking up the house to level, setting it on temporary cribbing, then digging out and getting a proper footing under the house perimeter + good inner supports, may be exactly what it needs. Otherwise the 'settling' can continue and get worse.

Man I really appreciate all the great replies here. Lots of good info to process and ponder over. The Mrs and me have been thinking about doing stucco outside so maybe a foam layer outside like everyone has been saying will do the charm. I guess the only good thig is if I ever had a chimney fire try and burn down the house, I wouldn't have to replace the walls.

BeGreen, not sure if I can do that. There is another section of the house that is wood frame that my Grandpa built himself attached to the bad side of the house. Well I guess there is always a way, but it would be hairy im sure.

Hell maybe I should just get a second wood stove for a couple grand and then I won't have to worry about cold walls, just wood supply. ahaha!

begreen · Jan 1, 2010

If the settling of the house is not dealt with, eventually it may come back to bite you and your wallet. It depends on what the real problems are. Understanding the core issues is essential to making the right decisions. Get some outside advice if necessary to determine what the root problems are and what it would take to fix them. We finally had to make the call, it was expensive, but I concluded that it was cheaper now than waiting til later. The house is so much better since addressing the core problems. I'm glad that I was able to save our house and that it was in a neighborhood that would support the investment. But this is an individual call.

Corriewf · Jan 1, 2010

BeGreen said:
If the settling of the house is not dealt with, eventually it may come back to bite you and your wallet. It depends on what the real problems are. Understanding the core issues is essential to making the right decisions. Get some outside advice if necessary to determine what the root problems are and what it would take to fix them. We finally had to make the call, it was expensive, but I concluded that it was cheaper now than waiting til later. The house is so much better since addressing the core problems. I'm glad that I was able to save our house and that it was in a neighborhood that would support the investment. But this is an individual call.

Weeeelll the deal is that I had all the floors replaced about 3 years ago in the older part of the house. We had new sub floor and joists put in. BUT it seems that the house is still moving. I have new cracks in the ceiling and the counter top has dropped about a quarter inch in one spot. I really hope it stops. I did have the joist in the ceiling checked out as well and they were fine 3 years ago. What was the problem with your house if you don't mind me asking?

begreen · Jan 2, 2010

Our house had no real foundation. Farmer built, they weren't thinking much about a few generations later. The porch side had a cement ponywall with a wuss footing that was sinking on one side. The opposite end of the house was sitting on a stout 6x12 doug fir beam (on the ground) that was steadily rotting away. The sides just had piers with a stone and concrete skirt that only went down a few inches. Not enough to keep rats out. There was no way to reach about 1/2 of the crawlspace due to less than a foot clearance. Rodents were having a field day down there, so insulation and duct insulation were gone.

Now this crawlspace is a full access, insulated and conditioned space. Our floors are warm and rodent intrusion + damage is just a bad memory. Our fix, a full 3' foundation raising the house, was expensive. I would not have done it if the neighborhood didn't support the property value improvements. However, I did investigate lesser approaches that also had merit.

pistonslap · Jan 3, 2010

The settling problem sounds like a big one but for furring out the walls, The way I did mine was to turn 2x4's on their sides, screw them into the floor and ceiling and construction glue them to the walls. I used 3/4" styrofoam r-3 ($10 a sheet) and 3/8 drywalled over it. the difference was phenominal. A good way to get a rough estimate of the job is to figure $20 for every 4'x8' - $10 insulation, $6 drywall, $4 studs. you will feel the difference in heat as you're doing it.

Corriewf · Jan 3, 2010

BeGreen said:
Our house had no real foundation. Farmer built, they weren't thinking much about a few generations later. The porch side had a cement ponywall with a wuss footing that was sinking on one side. The opposite end of the house was sitting on a stout 6x12 doug fir beam (on the ground) that was steadily rotting away. The sides just had piers with a stone and concrete skirt that only went down a few inches. Not enough to keep rats out. There was no way to reach about 1/2 of the crawlspace due to less than a foot clearance. Rodents were having a field day down there, so insulation and duct insulation were gone.

Now this crawlspace is a full access, insulated and conditioned space. Our floors are warm and rodent intrusion + damage is just a bad memory. Our fix, a full 3' foundation raising the house, was expensive. I would not have done it if the neighborhood didn't support the property value improvements. However, I did investigate lesser approaches that also had merit.

Yeeup same thing here almost. The joist were way too far apart. Some of the joist had actually fallen. I had a bouncing floor, which is not very fun. The guy put in all new joist up to code spacing and they were no longer on the dirt. So now I am wondering if the actual walls themselves due to the weight are sinking.

Long story short, I own 25% of the house, it's paid for and I have the right to live here till I die or move out. I am somewhat hesitant about spending a lot of my money on a house that I only own 25% of. If I ever go to sell it, I only get 25% of my investment back. Not that I pan on selling it. My Grandpa built the better half of it.

Corriewf · Jan 3, 2010

pistonslap said:
The settling problem sounds like a big one but for furring out the walls, The way I did mine was to turn 2x4's on their sides, screw them into the floor and ceiling and construction glue them to the walls. I used 3/4" styrofoam r-3 ($10 a sheet) and 3/8 drywalled over it. the difference was phenominal. A good way to get a rough estimate of the job is to figure $20 for every 4'x8' - $10 insulation, $6 drywall, $4 studs. you will feel the difference in heat as you're doing it.

So you only lost a few inches but it really paid off for you. Are you using a wood stove to heat? If so, what was the difference with reloading of the stove and retention of heat? Thanks for your help.

pistonslap · Jan 3, 2010

I heat my whole house with a wood furnace. My house is much warmer with a smaller fire although last night was 9 above with a wind chill of -7 and I was building big fires and the best I could do was keep the house at 68. My normal burn times are about 3 1/2 to 4 hrs. On a normal night I can keep the house at 72 with a much smaller fire.

Corriewf · Jan 3, 2010

pistonslap said:
I heat my whole house with a wood furnace. My house is much warmer with a smaller fire although last night was 9 above with a wind chill of -7 and I was building big fires and the best I could do was keep the house at 68. My normal burn times are about 3 1/2 to 4 hrs. On a normal night I can keep the house at 72 with a much smaller fire.

68 is comfortable, especially with those temps outside. Yeah, I might have to give this furring a shot. Thanks for all the info!

How can I retain more heat?

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