secondary combustion -- Dutchwest

It would help to know more about the stove, but the short answer is that you've closed the air down too far, too soon. Many here close the air down in stages, halfway first, and then down to 1/4 open, or less. On my stove, I rarely close it all the way. Usually it's open just a little bit, but only after it's been run hot.
Generally, good secondary combustion involves lots of fire at the top of the stove. Depends on the stove.

First off welcome to the forum.What stove do you have ? ? So your stove has air control and a secondary bypass damper? or just a air control? If you have a secondary bypass damper you should be able to close it after you get a good bed of coals.Post up the brand and model.you will get a lot more help from other owners.. Everyone will tell dry wood is very important!! especially when learning a new stove

I have an insert and only one primary air control.

Secondary flames, for me, kick in when insert is hot - 550* and up- and consist of 'waves' of flames - any color- rolling lazily across the top of my splits with flames shooting out of the secondary air tubes. There is generally a flame at the bottom of my insert in the coal bed that acts like a wick to keep the flames at the top of the fire box rolling.

It is my understanding that secondary combustion is happening even if the type of flames I have described aren't visible. Temps. just have to be high enough for it to kick in.

Sounds like what you are describing are secondary flames. Don't know about the noise you are hearing though....Mine makes no noise.

Based on my limited knowledge of the Dutchwest (which consists of reading a few posts here) it sounds like it's doing exactly what it's supposed to. If I'm not mistaken it's a downdraft stove, so no smoke, rumbling, and a little bit of flame is what you're looking for. This is a different type of non-cat than most of the stoves people discuss here, and I think it doesn't give the same kind of rolling flame show. If you search the VC Dutchwest here you'll find more info.

Dutch West owners come out come out where ever you are! You will get the help you need,lots of V.C. owners are on eastern time it's 1:45 AM out there..

Deep south /?? cant be to deep,if you got frozen pipes????

Edit your post to include "Dutchwest" in the title, and you'll probably get more help.

This stove can be a bit tricky to master, but this is what you should expect. After building a large coal bed, close the damper and you will hear the rumbling in the rear of the stove igniting the secondary combustion chamber. Dont expect the rumbling to continue more than 20 min or so, it rarely will, the stove temps will drop some but should stablize at not less than 400 degrees on the flue at about 18" up above the stove. If your temps drop below that, then you have expericienced the classic "dutchwest stall" and the stove will continue to lose temp all your going to do after that is create creasote. This is the problem with this stove, trying to get a proper secondary burn stablized for any length of time. Having dry hardwood is key for me, I mean really dry and really hard. When I burn aspen or pine the wood is gone by the time I have a decent coal bed to close the bypass. If you still cant get it, the next step is the actual placement of the logs in front of the shoe (the hole in the bottom center of the stove) some, including myself, have found simply by placeing the logs in a fashion that crates better flow for the shoe can greatly help. For more info, read about placements of the splits in the thread "dutchwest worst stove ever". Dont let the name scare you, theres good info there. These stoves are very draft sensitive, and the secondary combustion system work properly for few, are frustrating for most, and simply never work for some.

I have a leyden which is also a downdraft stove. Just got it, and I am fiddling trying for adequate combustion.
If I had to guess, I'd say my biggest issue is wood that needs more seasoning time (calling it wet isn't exactly appropriate, but fits I guess). Everything about my wood says it's dry, except the stove. I'll also be adding 3ft. of pipe after this cold snap. I'm lucky in that right now I can literally pick creosote off my stove cap without much trouble. Last night I put my hand over the exhaust and could absolutely feel the moisture. Eye opener.

So, I've been burning hard before throwing in the combustion chamber and trying to take out any moisture I can. Last night with the bypass closed I was at about 500deg., air about 25% open. Slight smoke/steam from stack. I took a shower and came out to find a very hot fire with temps over 600. I closed off the air and she starting combusting superbly. Clean stack. Just needed that extra time to get the moisture out maybe. I'm learning also.
And I've been allowing for an air channel into the combuster when filling up for a long burn. This does help, especially with my wood. I can watch the holes fire the gasses as they rush past. Also seems like I have to run through the combuster for a bit to super-heat it.

Be aware, I am a newbie. Just some early observations.

Troutchaser, interesting that you have a leyden, I also have one, and I find it a far superior downdraft stove than the Dutchwest. I have the Leyden at my house and Dutchwest at my cabin. Both require dry wood, but the dutchwest is far more finicky than the Leyden, I rarely fool with the Leyden, I can load it up with Aspen, pine oak or a varation of them and as long as the wood is dry, the Leyden burns clean and long. With the dutchwest, the stove is much more suseptible to a stall, I can only burn hardwood, I'm unsucessfull with soft. And even with oak, I'm always fiddling with the bypass depending on stove temps, raking the coals into optimal areas, playing with the placement of the wood, all in an effort to get it to run like my Leyden. Also, the Leyden provides much more air control than the Dutchwest, I never have to a crack a door with the Leyden to get things going, the dutchwest though it just seems that until things get hot it wants to putter and stall. I think the Leyden is no comparison to the dutchwest, just get dry wood, and unless you have draft issues, the Leyden will put-out.

rckmtnoffgrid, ya I think that dry wood thing is getting me. The leyden has been sort of fussy. Curious, does the Dutchwest rumble? I have heard the faintest rumble coming from my Leyden, but wouldn't have termed it as such. Sounds more like a rush of air to me. I am definitely pleased to hear you aren't having any trouble with it. I hope to have to same results after I get this wood a percent or two drier.

Didn't mean to hi-jack the dutchwest thread. Just seems like draft, ultra-dry wood, and preheating are the key with all of these downdrafts.

sounds like your stove is working properly.

i have found myself in the "dutchwest stall" a good bit... flue temps drop to 200-300. Yes it's probably building creosote. I have my chimney cleaned once last year and it was not "bad" the guy said it could have probably went another season. i wouldn't worry too much about keeping the flue temps above 350-400 while ever burning. too many people worry their butts off so much about these stoves.

if you're worried have the chimney cleaned twice a year. throw wood in it... make it hot and enjoy it.

all the negativity about these stoves is overrated. YES they are a bit tricky to figure out. but read up on this forum and just roll with it.

in addition....

i'd be more worried about over firing the stove (which is a common problem with these) then running it too cold. i had to alter my secondary air intake to control the over fire issue... but it's all good now.



one more thing... the fan kit is TOTALLY worth it on this stove.

If you follow the link in my sig, then scroll to the bottom of my woodstove page, there are links to videos I created for this stove. Also this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/

Has lots of info on operating this stove.

This stove is notorious for its requirement of well seasoned wood for optimal performance, and it takes some getting used to. If you have the patience to stick with it, by year 2 or 3, with good wood, it will be running beautifully for you

The stove is also notorious for overfiring under the right circumstances, like a very strong drafting chimney setup coupled with extremely cold temps outside (and/or high pressure system). If flue temps seem out of control (above 1200 °F for more than 15 minutes or above 1000 °F for more than 30 minutes) you need to cover the secondary air intake and in the future figure out a more permanent way to restrict secondary air in such situations.

To answer your question directly as to what it LOOKS like when secondary combustion is going and you are dampered down - in a word: boring. You shouldn't see a lot of flame, ideally the logs on top should not even look like they have caught fire for the first hour. With practice you will get 8-10 hour burns when desired, with little effort.

The "everburn rumble" is always present when there is secondary combustion, although sometimes quite faint (you may need to go around back and stick your ear down by the secondary air intake to hear it. It can rumble away for many hours on a single load. If there is smoke coming out your chimney, you're doing something wrong.

troutchaser, the dutchwest has a definate rumble, the Leyden has an almost undetectable whosh, but where the Leyden builds and stablizes, I find the dutchwest will roar at first then quiet down before begining a slow decline. With the same coal bed, I can load the Leyden, close the damper and leave for work for 6-8 solid hours, when I return at lunch, the chimney is still burning clean and the stove is hot, wood 1/2 gone, when I'm off, the stove is warm and ready for a reload but still no smoke. With the ductwest, I load it up, close the damper and when I return in four hours the chimney is smokeing and the stove is warm, wood is also 1/2 gone. It just doest seem to hold the secondary burn as efficienty or as long. Now mind you that we're talking about too seperate installations at two seperate places, but these are my observations. With the dutchwest, if your seeing blue flames and hearing anything two hours or so after closeing the bypass then your definalty doing something right. With my DW the blue flames stop within 10mins of closing the bypass, my rumble is gone in twenty, and my heat fizzes out after 1-2 hours.

But here's the thing. When I can hear the secondary combustion, that "whoosh", and I can see a few holes in the ceramic firing like torches, I can go outside and still see smoke. I find that after 20-30 minutes it usually cleans up. Is this still an indicator of too much moisture in the wood, or is the combuster just getting hotter after some time and working more efficiently?

That has me wondering. . . If my heat is racing out the bypass before going nuclear, how can I expect the combuster to instantly combust gases without air flow to first get it spanking hot? Wouldn't it be better to leave the air open fully and take the bypass closed in stages, thus warming the combuster (assuming that draft would begin to pull through the combuster with the bypass restricted)before take off?

I sure would like to know if anyone has tried this or if it makes sense.

Troutchaser said:

But here's the thing. When I can hear the secondary combustion, that "whoosh", and I can see a few holes in the ceramic firing like torches, I can go outside and still see smoke. I find that after 20-30 minutes it usually cleans up. Is this still an indicator of too much moisture in the wood, or is the combuster just getting hotter after some time and working more efficiently?

That has me wondering. . . If my heat is racing out the bypass before going nuclear, how can I expect the combuster to instantly combust gases without air flow to first get it spanking hot? Wouldn't it be better to leave the air open fully and take the bypass closed in stages, thus warming the combuster (assuming that draft would begin to pull through the combuster with the bypass restricted)before take off?

I sure would like to know if anyone has tried this or if it makes sense.

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Yes, I think it makes sence, I believe the secondary combustion definatly builds then stablizes, its notable that the Leyden has the geared bypass specifically for the purpose youre talking about (dutchwest lacks this), and although I haven't fooled with it, you may be on to something. I just simply run the Leyden with the bypass 100% open and air control at about 33% for an hour or so before closing the bypass, I can see just by looking at way the bottom half of the wood has turned into a bright red coal bed shes ready to go. When I close the bypass, if I want a bit more heat, i will actually open the air control to the first white ring (1/5), I can do this and still burn clean, when I open the air control further than that it seems to start offsetting the combustion and I start smokeing. It's like too much air and it's overcomming the combustor. When I leave the house I definatly close the air all the way. This may help; with the bypass closed, my leyden only smokes under these conditions; insufficient coal bed; during reloads until the new wood gets hot especially if the splits have bark or if the coal bed is low; too much air; and wet wood. I've not burned wet wood in the leyden so I don't know exactly what it acks like, but I sure know from the dutchwest... with dry wood the Leyden seems to operate easy. Hope this helps.

rkymtnoffgrid,
Are you monitoring stove temps? Flue temps?
A fellow Leyden owner sure helps the learning curve. This is a beautiful stove and the only one my wife would allow in the living room.

No Troutchaser, I took my thermometer to the cabin to verify my temps and issues with my dutchwest, haven't ever really needed it here with the Leyden. But I'll pick one up today, in fact my refractory brick on the side door of my dutchwest has broke....again... and I have to head to the stove shop anyways. Once I get it, I'll post timed temps during a regular burn for the leyden.