New Gasification Buyer Questions

I would say that this is definitely a good application for a Garn. It does require its own outbuilding usually, but someone here I think put it on a pad adjacent to the house and built a shed around it or something. Woodgun and econoburn also offer very high BTU units (ie 500k and 1million). The woodgun claims to not need storage because it completely closes air off to the wood chamber and kicks on every once and a while to keep embers. The Econoburn would probably eventually need storage to give you full flexibility in firing time. If it were me, I would go with the Garn for your app.

Yep, The Garn sounds right for you. Throw in the wood & walk away from what I've read. Storage is built in. The only question is cost. The boiler is about $14,000 I've read. It will pay for itself though. If you have Elm you don't need to buy firewood. This is one of my favorite woods to burn, Randy

Agreed, another Garn vote, or possibly one of the larger indoor gassers in an outbuilding - and by the time you add storage, it probably would be in the same price ballpark as the Garn.

For firewood - start cutting now, or as soon as you can, it takes at least a year to get wood seasoned properly, the sooner you can get it cut and stacked, the sooner it will season. Elm can be a pain to split but is good burning wood. Poplar is not so great, but it's OK for shoulder season burning where the heat demand is lower.

I don't know of any gassers that take full logs happily, but I think the Garn is more tolerant of big wood than most of the others - it would also let you skip purchasing the storage tank.

Some of the Seton type boilers are also supposed to be able to take big wood, but there have been so many people posting here with tales of woe about them that I would be really hesitant to suggest one of those.

Gooserider

knjne said:

OK. I have been reading this forum for quite some time and am ready to buy.

You guys (and girls) are a great wealth of knowledge. But I have some specific questions.

We have to heat about 5000 SQ/FT including upstairs and a basement. I would like the easiest way to do this. I know it will take work, but a $450 propane bill for the last 4 weeks has pushed me to this point.

We live on 10 acres and have a lot of dead trees. The problem is they are mostly Poplar trees and some Elm killed by Dutch Elm.

So here are my questions.

1. I will buy wood if needed. I would like to load as few times as possible per day. I work quite a bit.

2. What is the best (in your opinion) outdoor boiler for this application.

3. In the future I will add a water holding tank. I see from this great forum that this is the way to go.

4. Are there gasification boilers that will take full logs? I do not have a splitter, but will buy one if I have to.

Any other suggestions are needed! I am about to spend a load of money and want to make sure I do the right thing!

Thanks in advance for any help.

Kirk

Click to expand...

Kirk,

I would suggest looking very seriously at a GARN also.

I just put my GARN WHS 2000 online in December of '09. We are currently heating our house, which is approx. 3200 sqft., and plan on adding our outbuilding which is another 3000 sqft. . I don't see a problem with the GARN meeting that heat demand. You should do a heat loss calculation just to get an idea of what your demand is so that you are certain the appliance you chose will meet your needs. You should also convert the fossil fuel BTUs that you currently use into wood BTUs to get an estimate on how many cords you will need to store each year. I going to guess 15 or more, especially if the bulk is poplar. The Garn will require seasoned wood. Splits are the best. At first look, the GARN will look more expensive, but the base unit will come very close to any other gasser with an equal amount of storage. My project cost blew my budget on the outbuilding for the unit. Keep that in mind.

knjne,
I'm picking up on a couple of things from your original post that might give pause for thought. It sounds like your time is precious and I get the sense that you may not be ready to commit to wood as your new "girlfriend". Don't get me wrong I think burning wood and running a wood boiler is a marvelous "hobby" but it does require a lifestyle change if you've never done it before. Those trees available on your land will take a lot of your time and effort to get them into that boiler so it may well be that you end up paying someone else for your wood fuel. I imagine the Garn is as easy as it gets but I have yet to hear about any boiler that allows you to "throw and run". They all seem to require an "interested attendant" to function properly. Have I mentioned the inevitable learning curve?

No offence intended but be wary and please do not underestimate the work involved in burning wood.
Have you considered Geo-thermal?

gorbull said:

knjne,
I'm picking up on a couple of things from your original post that might give pause for thought. It sounds like your time is precious and I get the sense that you may not be ready to commit to wood as your new "girlfriend". Don't get me wrong I think burning wood and running a wood boiler is a marvelous "hobby" but it does require a lifestyle change if you've never done it before. Those trees available on your land will take a lot of your time and effort to get them into that boiler so it may well be that you end up paying someone else for your wood fuel. I imagine the Garn is as easy as it gets but I have yet to hear about any boiler that allows you to "throw and run". They all seem to require an "interested attendant" to function properly. Have I mentioned the inevitable learning curve?

No offence intended but be wary and please do not underestimate the work involved in burning wood.
Have you considered Geo-thermal?

Click to expand...

That's blasphemy in the boiler room!! ;-P Just kidding, I looked into that as well, but for me, a wood boiler was a better fit. I agree that a Garn would probably work the best for you.

I have had my tarm solo 40 for one season. From everything i have read and learned... for your situation... Garn is the best for you.

I was going to say that you don't need a splitter--especially with dead wood, you can probably do it all by hand. But then I got to the part about how most of your wood is elm. If you need to split it, then you'll probably need a splitter.

I second the suggestion that you start cutting immediately. Gasifiers require very dry wood, so the more you have piled up, the better off you'll be in the long run. Don't assume that all dead wood is dry. But it will dry out faster than green wood when cut, split and stacked.

I have a couple Garns getting dropped off tomorrow near Lansing and will be installing one in the Gregory area 1st week of February. Send me a PM if you want more info.

Just a note here though........You mentioned you were looking for an outdoor boiler and a Garn is definitely not that type of equipment. UL listed for indoor installation.

heaterman said:

I have a couple Garns getting dropped off tomorrow near Lansing and will be installing one in the Gregory area 1st week of February. Send me a PM if you want more info.

Just a note here though........You mentioned you were looking for an outdoor boiler and a Garn is definitely not that type of equipment. UL listed for indoor installation.

Click to expand...

True, but doesn't that just mean that the OP would need to build a structure of some sort around it? - Seems like lots of people put their Garns into purpose built "Garn Barns" - or possibly something that started out as a Garn Barn and grew to include wood storage and / or other sorts of shop type space... Doesn't seem that different to me from an OWB which is essentially a boiler enclosed in a purpose built shed that comes with the unit, as long as one budgets for the structure.

Gooserider

Gooserider said:

heaterman said:

I have a couple Garns getting dropped off tomorrow near Lansing and will be installing one in the Gregory area 1st week of February. Send me a PM if you want more info.

Just a note here though........You mentioned you were looking for an outdoor boiler and a Garn is definitely not that type of equipment. UL listed for indoor installation.

Click to expand...

True, but doesn't that just mean that the OP would need to build a structure of some sort around it? - Seems like lots of people put their Garns into purpose built "Garn Barns" - or possibly something that started out as a Garn Barn and grew to include wood storage and / or other sorts of shop type space... Doesn't seem that different to me from an OWB which is essentially a boiler enclosed in a purpose built shed that comes with the unit, as long as one budgets for the structure.

Gooserider

Click to expand...

Right on all counts Goose. I wasn't real clear on my main point, which is that performance is about 180* from a typical OWB. Along with that, it is most certainly true that nearly all Garn users have their unit located in a lean-to, shed, pole barn or other structure. Who wants to go outside in the snow to fire up the boiler at -10*.

That's what happens when I get in a hurry and attempt to do two things at once............like I have been since November.

Agree with everyones recommendation that you choose a Garn. I will probably be going with a Garn as well. Same price as another equal sized boiler with storage. Having read just about every post in the boiler room (yes it gave me a headache as well as a lot of info to consider) I would say that the Garn has the fewest problems of all the types of boilers posted here. Lots of people get themselves in a bind with all of the piping & distribution issues regardless of the boiler they choose. Maybe over estimating their DIY skills. Not saying that you will, but it helps to know when to call a pro, saves you time & probably money in the long run, I know this is true in my industry, as many ppl take their home building/reno attempts way beyond their skill level, then I get to be the bad guy & tell them how much it will cost to fix properly (no one is happy to find out all of their efforts are for not), or worse that their efforts have cost them money. You will as Heaterman said need a building to put the Garn in to protect it from the elements. Good luck with your choices.

Frozen Canuck said:

Agree with everyones recommendation that you choose a Garn. I will probably be going with a Garn as well. Same price as another equal sized boiler with storage. Having read just about every post in the boiler room (yes it gave me a headache as well as a lot of info to consider) I would say that the Garn has the fewest problems of all the types of boilers posted here. Lots of people get themselves in a bind with all of the piping & distribution issues regardless of the boiler they choose. Maybe over estimating their DIY skills. Not saying that you will, but it helps to know when to call a pro, saves you time & probably money in the long run, I know this is true in my industry, as many ppl take their home building/reno attempts way beyond their skill level, then I get to be the bad guy & tell them how much it will cost to fix properly (no one is happy to find out all of their efforts are for not), or worse that their efforts have cost them money. You will as Heaterman said need a building to put the Garn in to protect it from the elements. Good luck with your choices.

Click to expand...

Yes Frozen; I believe the Garn is quite a bit cheaper in many cases. As much as I love the Wood Gun I think it's real forte is, in the basement installation, where a Garn can't go. I believe the same applies to an Econoburn etc etc. I've read a Garn can put out 400,000 BTUH. By the time you buy a stainless WG in the 400,000 btu range & add large storage(so your wood loading is comparable to the Garn), the Garn is way cheaper. The Garn is a tough act to follow in the 400,000 btu range, Randy

Yes singed, I have just reviewed all of the prices I recieved. You are right in every case of equal btu size(or close to) the Garn was the cheapest when compared to another boiler with purchased storage. Thanks for the reminder, that got me to re check the prices I already have. Guess that narrows down my choices quite a bit.

my 2 sense. I love burning wood. I have heated with or partially heated with wood for over 20 yrs. You really have to like it. It is is lot of work even it you buy it. Over the past 20 yrs. I have had to rely on wood heat on several occasions because of the economy, job loss or some other circumstance. This hobby / lifestyle has come in handy. If you are considering a purchase of wood boiler, no matter what you buy, expect to have some fun and some work and planning ahead of you. If you may be an on again off again user of this boiler you should consider something that will be inside with a fossil fuel backup so things wont freeze up on you. There are many many opinions on this forum and I have a lot of respect for all of them. Buy what suits your life style.

knjne said:

I would like the easiest way to do this. I know it will take work, but a $450 propane bill for the last 4 weeks has pushed me to this point.

We live on 10 acres and have a lot of dead trees. The problem is they are mostly Poplar trees and some Elm killed by Dutch Elm.

I would like to load as few times as possible per day.


Are there gasification boilers that will take full logs?


Kirk

Click to expand...

Kirk . . .yer not ready. The easiest way to heat your place is with a fossil-fired unit. You think $115/week is a lot to heat a house? Dude! That would be cheap.

10 acres of dead poplar and elm is NOT gonna feed your habit.

Can you define 'full logs'?

I agree that the Garn sounds great but I seriously don't think you're ready to live wood-burning 24/7.

Jimbo

Dead btu might be right. Ten ac. should give ten cords a year. That's enough if it's hardwood but popple won't cut it. I also wish Garn would have come out with a smaller unit. It was just too big for me.

twitch said:

gorbull said:

knjne,
I'm picking up on a couple of things from your original post that might give pause for thought. It sounds like your time is precious and I get the sense that you may not be ready to commit to wood as your new "girlfriend". Don't get me wrong I think burning wood and running a wood boiler is a marvelous "hobby" but it does require a lifestyle change if you've never done it before. Those trees available on your land will take a lot of your time and effort to get them into that boiler so it may well be that you end up paying someone else for your wood fuel. I imagine the Garn is as easy as it gets but I have yet to hear about any boiler that allows you to "throw and run". They all seem to require an "interested attendant" to function properly. Have I mentioned the inevitable learning curve?

No offence intended but be wary and please do not underestimate the work involved in burning wood.
Have you considered Geo-thermal?

Click to expand...

That's blasphemy in the boiler room!! ;-P Just kidding, I looked into that as well, but for me, a wood boiler was a better fit. I agree that a Garn would probably work the best for you.

Click to expand...

Some will disagree but.........

I was around a couple geo jobs this summer and quite frankly was not impressed with the ROI. As an example, I was called to provide input/consultation on a refit in a 5 year old house. Very well insulated equipped with a two stage variable speed gas furnace/AC system at the time I looked at it. The owner thought that $450/per month during the heart of the winter was too much cost for heating the place, which is over 5,000 sq ft. Long story short, he spent $44K on a ground loop geo that will provide up to about 65,000 btu of heating capacity. His heat load was a little over 90K at design temps which of course means that a fair amount of the time he'll be running the back up strip heaters in the system. I heard through the grapevine that his electric bill was over $300 last month. Do the math and calculate how long it takes to pay back $44,000 by saving $150/ month. Now understand that fixing a broken geo unit is nearly always a four figure bill and you can see why I didn't recommend going that way. It's just not there.

24.444 years to pay the geothermal back. My cousin had one put in for 20k. Dont know how it works yet.

ihookem said:

24.444 years to pay the geothermal back. My cousin had one put in for 20k. Dont know how it works yet.

Click to expand...

And by that time the thing will have failed twice over extending the payback out even further due to repair and upkeep costs. I would guess that for 20K your cousins system is a pump and dump rather than a ground loop as in the system I described. If so I hope he has extremely clean ground water or else the mineral and iron buildup will kill the thing in short order.

The main problem I see with GSHP's is that most installers undersize them in order to present a lower price to their customer.

knjne said:

OK. I have been reading this forum for quite some time and am ready to buy.

You guys (and girls) are a great wealth of knowledge. But I have some specific questions.

We have to heat about 5000 SQ/FT including upstairs and a basement. I would like the easiest way to do this. I know it will take work, but a $450 propane bill for the last 4 weeks has pushed me to this point.

We live on 10 acres and have a lot of dead trees. The problem is they are mostly Poplar trees and some Elm killed by Dutch Elm.

So here are my questions.

1. I will buy wood if needed. I would like to load as few times as possible per day. I work quite a bit.

2. What is the best (in your opinion) outdoor boiler for this application.

3. In the future I will add a water holding tank. I see from this great forum that this is the way to go.

4. Are there gasification boilers that will take full logs? I do not have a splitter, but will buy one if I have to.

Any other suggestions are needed! I am about to spend a load of money and want to make sure I do the right thing!

Thanks in advance for any help.

Kirk

Click to expand...

OK point by point.

5000 sq ft means you need large, think 350k/hr fire rate for the boiler & 1500 gal storage maybe larger. Calculate how many btus you want to store, base this on your schedule/lifestyle, then find a boiler that will get that number of btus into storage in the time frame you are willing to fire it for. That way the system works for you, not the other way around.
1. "I will buy firewood if needed." I agree with others ppl statements that you will need to buy wood, or find from other sources, at least until you have your own supply dried out 15-20% M.C.
1b. "I would like to load as few times as possible per day. I work quite a bit." Me too, bigger means less firing....smaller means more. Makes sense right?
2. "What is the best (in your opinion) outdoor boiler for this application ?" I dont think anyone here would recommend that you buy an OWB, most recommendation's will be for a gasification boiler with storage. I am sure that is what you meant, just wanted to clear it up.
3. "In the future I will add a water holding tank." I suggest that no matter what boiler you choose, that you add storage during the install, otherwise your "I work quite a bit" will have to change to (I work quite a bit, then I go home & spend all my spare time trying to get enough heat in my home because I have no storage to hold me over when I am at work). You & I want the same thing, namely that switching to wood is not a life altering experience. 2 or 3 big fires per day with the bulk of the energy going into storage accomplishes that, 8 or 9 little fires don't, as neither of us would be home to lite them. Easier for us ppl who work a lot to manage payments for something that works rather than adjust our schedules for something that does not work.
4. "Are there any gasification boilers that will take full logs." See I cheated & read ahead knew you meant to say gaser.....Most ppl state they can burn up to 6" rounds with little to no problem. That would be an excellent question for the more experienced users here, namely how full & how big (log diam) can you fill your boiler before it objects either by failing to gassify or by behaving like a run away train? Ask them to state the brand & model of boiler so you can judge what you are willing to accept for performance. I think the GARN would fare best with big rounds, makes sense round fire box, round wood continues to roll to center as it is burned. Square or rectangle fire box, probably bridges as it burns. One thing for sure, if I get a GARN, on day 2, I will find out how it works with a full firebox of large rounds. I just need to let it cool down to say 100 before I try this as there is no way I want to hear 2000 gallons of water boiling, at least not in my boiler. :bug:
4b. "I do not have a splitter, but will buy one if I have to." Buy one, that Elm may take many years to dry to 15-20% if not split. How patient are you & how much room do you have to store wood? While you wait for it to dry. Me...I have lots of both, not sure about your situation. Good luck with your info gathering & choices.

Frozen Canuck said:

. . .

5000 sq ft means you need large, think 350k/hr fire rate for the boiler & 1500 gal storage maybe larger.

. . .

Click to expand...

Um, how'd ya come up with that? I didn't see his heat loss calc embedded there.

Speaking for myself only , I heat 4k [] with a 100kBtu GW. And I'm in upstate NT, heat my DHW also and ~ 1800 of the [] is slab, which is a b!tch to heat. Maybe he 'needs' 350, but only if he's storing tons of BTU's. If he buys something 350 and decides against storage - even just for the first year - he is going to be oversized and VERY disatisfied!

Obviously if he went with a Garn than he's automatically gonna have storage.

I guess heaterman is right, geo thermal will never pay for itself. He could have got a top of the line Garn with a big storage shed and 5 years of firewood. He would have been cheaper off too. I am curious to see how it works.

One thing to remember is that if you have adequate storage capacity, firing rate is not a primary concern. In fact, as long as the firing rate will heat the house while dumping a little into storage, that's really about all that matters. 350K is not oversized really for any application because you heat from the storage not that actual burn rate. A higher output simply means that you can heat things (storage) up more quickly and tend fewer fires of shorter duration. Adequate storage for a 8-12 hour period really makes burning wood a piece of cake. If the system is designed in a way that allows a wide range of input temperatures a one a day burn pattern (3-5 hour burn) is not uncommon when you 1500-2000 gallons of storage.