What's with all the worries about insurance companies?

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So, I'm just wondering, there's seems to be alot of posts here about people being worried their insurance company is gonna deny them.

Now, before I get flamed, I'm with them, I'm worried to, I went out of my way to make sure my install was as safe as possible and met code...etc...even though there were times when I thought the code was just far overkill (like an R of 2.5 on the hearth extension 24" out, and even if you have that, any "raised" extension underneath for R2.5 must be built from a non-combustible..).

Anyhow, it just seems to me that this is the very reason one has insurance. Otherwise, what's the point? I don't think they can really deny claims for stupidity (like an improperly installed wood stove, for example). Otherwise they would deny the claim from the guy who fell asleep on his couch with a cigarette in his hand, or the woman who placed her kerosene heater 3" from her curtains, or the guy who fell unconscious from running his generator in the basement, or the guy who burnt his garage down because he was BBQ'ing in it because it was a rainy day...or the family who put candles on their Christmas tree because that is what they have always done, or the guy who purposly starts chimney fires because that's what he has always done to clean his flue......and the list could go on forever. Most all fires, if not all, are preventable.

So, can an insurance company deny a claim for stupidity? Does anyone have a direct knowledge of that? So if a guy goes out an installs a woodstove on his own and didn't tell his insurance company about it, and lets say he did it completely wrong and put it right on a combustible floor and and ran single wall flue right thru a combustible wall and ends up burning down his house. Can an insurance company deny that claim? I tend to think not, but I really don't know.

I understand, if your insurance company becomes aware that you have a woodstove or any situation which they don't like (missing stairway railing, not enough steps up the door, unfenced pool...etc..etc..), they can choose to terminate coverage or not underwrite your policy to begin with, but I don't think they can deny a claim after the fact. I could be wrong. Perhaps if you lied about having a wood stove when they asked you.

I dunno...most people with any sense of reality will probably worry about it none-the-less, but is there really a concern to be that worried about insurance denying your claim?
 
Good post. I'm curious as well.
Joe
 
I don't think the question has ever been whether they would pay a claim or not. The question is would they cancel your policy if they later found out you had installed the stove without notifying them.
 
Well, the insurance company is in a gambling business. There are only so many ways that they can arrange the deck. A bad/not to code install is a bad bet. there are a couple of site with pics of installs that are really mind blowing- and without going to each house they can't tell if it's a safe install or a single wall pipe going through a sheet of plywood and terminating 1' from your house, 3' below roof line. So- they are left with code, and certified installers.

As for denying a claim... I really don't know
 
Insurance policies are contracts. Contract law applies. Many are similar in wording, based upon the ISO standard. This helps the customer make comparisons for coverages vs costs, etc. It helps the insurers because the terms of the contract have already been court tested. This allows them a certain amount of consistency and set premiums to ensure they make their huge profits.

The point is, you have to read YOUR policy. In each section, first they tell you what is covered. Then they proceed to spell out the exclusions. Most policies are broad in coverage listings, kinda like a used car salesman pushing the good points. The listed exclusions are what screws you. Also, if you misrepresent anything significant they can deny the entire claim.

The above is true as long as the policy is in effect, usually for one year at a time. If they become aware of something contrary to what situation they thought they were exposed to, they can cancel at the end of the policy period and sometimes sooner.

If you ask your agent any questions, document their answers. They are Agents of the company so the company is bound by what the agent represented to you. The company can still deny the claim but they and the agent then fight over who ultimately pays. The agent carries errors and omissions coverage to protect their butts!

Also, take advantage of your state insurance commission. They will hold the insurance company accountable. Believe me, writing explanations to them is no fun. The president of the company I worked for, or his secretary, read every complaint and response! The commission will also assist you in explaining coverages as well.

Sorry this is so dry and wordy. It comes from reading all the fine print in insurance contracts.
 
SO what your saying is, I think, every contract is a little bit different but generally they are written in such a manner that if they think they were wronged (for instance some guy putting in his own woodstove and doing it completely wrong and burning down his house, and lets say, god forbid, someone died as well), they will probably deny the claim (save for any direct laws that may prevent them from doing so) and take their chances in court. I could buy that. They can probably point out several points of the policy that would say the homeowner would have to inform them of any changes to the structure or things like that, and then weight their historical statistical chances of winning in court vs. how much that process is going to cost vs. how much the claim would be (in our example, somebody died, so very expensive claim...)...

Would that b a fair assessment?
 
73blazer said:
SO what your saying is, I think, every contract is a little bit different but generally they are written in such a manner that if they think they were wronged (for instance some guy putting in his own woodstove and doing it completely wrong and burning down his house, and lets say, god forbid, someone died as well), they will probably deny the claim (save for any direct laws that may prevent them from doing so) and take their chances in court. I could buy that. They can probably point out several points of the policy that would say the homeowner would have to inform them of any changes to the structure or things like that, and then weight their historical statistical chances of winning in court vs. how much that process is going to cost vs. how much the claim would be (in our example, somebody died, so very expensive claim...)...

Would that b a fair assessment?

Yes. Like any contract dispute, it always comes down to the fine print details. The only slight advantage the consumer has is that they had no part in writing the contract. If the insurer wanted to exclude something, they had ample opportunity to do so when THEY wrote the contract. They can't come back later and say they meant to exclude such and such.

For the most part, the consumer has to be intentionally negligent. Sometimes insurers with intentionally deny a valid (large) claim knowing they may loose in court, just so they can negotiate down what they must pay. Are you shocked? (grin)
 
The bottom line (for me at least) is that I pay for insurance so that I'm insured. I try to make sure that the insurance company knows what's in the house and I ask questions before I modify the house, so that they can advise me what, if anything, the changes will make to the rates.

Yesterday, in fact, I called to tell them I was concerned about some trees/limbs overhanging the cabin I just bought. I asked if I needed to use only a licensed or insured contractor to do the work, so that if something bad happened in the course of removing them, I would be covered. They answered all my questions and now I know how to go about getting the trees removed.

This approach helps me sleep better. I've never found playing ostrich to be a productive approach to problems.
 
Not an exact answer to your question, but perhaps relevant.

A few years ago my parent's house burned down. The cause was an outdoor wood boiler . . . either hot coals got too close to combustibles (my Dad built a wooden shed around the OWB for some reason) or an electrical malfunction (wiring was done by Dad.)

The insurance company was never told that they had replaced their existing oil furnace with the OWB . . . as such they dragged their feet for a very long time and in the end they denied the full replacement costs, but instead said they would only give them X amount. In addition, when they went shopping for insurance coverage afterwards they found that pretty much the only insurance company that could get was the insurance company they had . . . and the rates went up.

In my own personal experience . . . insurance companies may or may not be able to deny a claim based on a foolish move . . . but a) I would rather not take that chance and b) I would rather stay as safe as possible and do things by the book.
 
I saw this interesting post this early morning (woke up tonight due to a nasty cold...) and wanted to offer a take on this subject.

I picked a local insurance agent to insure my home because I strongly believe in supporting local business. I also like the idea of walking into a store front, greeting my agent neighbor and having a nice chat about any questions or issues I might be having at the time with my policies. So before I bought my stove I asked what their requirements were. After that conversation, I knew there were to be no surprises and I could move ahead with confidence.

After I had my stove installed I invited her back into my home to make her inspection (per her original requirements) and take pictures for the record. She needed to know it was done right for underwriting reasons, but there was something else too in her expression: She looked not only pleased, but also very relieved that it looked safe. She had seen her share of fires, grief and deaths in her career; yes, they'll cover many of those accidents, but those memories stick--she shared some of those stories. I've seen a neighbor's house burn down due to an extension cord under a rug; the poor gentleman died. I've seen enough of that too. Yes, there are some rotten insurance companies out there, but if you contract with an honorable business, talk to them eye to eye to find out their requirements, work with them, you'll sleep much better...and so will they.

Eric
 
If there's a such a thing left as a local insurance company, then that may be preferable.

But these days, insurance agents, local or distant, agents themselves have almost zero say in anything. No offense, you may feel comfortable with your agent, but rest assured, unless it's an actual local company, when the claim rolls in, your agent can't decide or do a darn thing. The corporate entity will send out an adjuster (NOT your agent) and the adjuster will make a report and send it to corporate headquarters, where a decision will be rendered.
Agents these days are bill collectors and policy quoters in my experience. The adjusters and some guy in a cubicle in downtown Columbus or NYC has the final say on whether your policy is upheld or not. Agents like to act like they can do things, but they can't. It's sad, because they used to years ago, but not anymore, the big companies have stripped them of most all their powers.

While I've suspected this for some time, my theory was proven correct when I recently moved into a new home, and the deck around the above ground pool did not have a railing on it, or a gate. We were busy with moving and all that, plus above ground pools are not so deluxe and pools, especially in Michigan don't add much value (in fact they can take away value), and pools are a maint. nightmare, so we were contemplating taking out the pool, and wanted some time to think about it.
The "agent", who I had an excellent rapport with and with whom I held my homeowners and all my vehicle policies with for 10+ years (with no claims..and always pay up front), and we still owned the old home (we turned it into a rental home), so he had 2 home policies and 3 cars and a motorcycle, he told me as long as I put a railing up within 6 months, no issue.

Well, the insurance company sent out some lacky to take photos, and he wasn't sent from the agents office, he was sent as a matter of corporate policy and hired locally directly from the corporate entity (I asked him), those photos were sent directly to corporate (not to the agent), and I promptly got a notice in the mail, canceling my policy within 2 weeks and it was complete with a refund check. Nothing saying I need to fix within x months, just a cancellation. So, naturally, I called my agent, somewhat livid, 10 years, 2 homes, 3 cars and I just get canceled....and how come I didn't hear this from you, why is this coming from corporate????.......blah..blah.., he said he'd take care of it. The next week, I got a registered mail from my (new) mortgage carrier saying insurance was about to lapse and I need to take care of it. I called my agent, he said he did take care of it , he reinstated the policy, and would look into it. He called me back within a couple hours to say corporate re-canceled the policy won't let him insure the property at all until the railing and gate are in place.
So, I shopped around and switched (all my policies). I got the same darn run around from the new company. Agent said, no issue , take your time, put one up within 3 months. 2 weeks later, corporate canceled.

The common factor in both cases is, the agent had NO CLUE my policy was even canceled, he was never notified. The corporate entities in both cases completely bypassed the agent on all fronts and hadn't a care in the world about losing all my policies if I switched. The agent was a nobody. All they are is another interface to collect bills and give quotes. The corporate entities keep them around because they know people feel comfortable with their "agents".

So, while your insurance company may vary, I wouldn't get too cozy with your agent, I don't think they can really do much when the time comes.
 
Having a good agent is critical. If they are on your side they can have a significant impact on how the insurance company handles your claim. The companies will bend over backwards to keep a good producing agent happy.
 
"So, while your insurance company may vary, I wouldn't get too cozy with your agent, I don't think they can really do much when the time comes."[/quote]


I would not disagree that it’s a tough world out there due to the unscrupulous, the incompetent, the greedy, or my favorite, the benign neglectful (the “oops” factor). It sounds like you been through the gauntlet to say the least. I was only saying work with your local agent with total transparency because you do not want to lose that ally if things get ugly. And at least then, you’ll have a fighting chance and will have appropriate documentation. Now if the parent company screws both the agent and the customer (as in your case), at least you’ll have an inside hand to guide you through plan B; every little bit helps. I don't mind paying good money for good & services but I expect competence and integrity, especially the latter. Once breached, I cut them out of my “will” and look elsewhere. So yes, pick your friends real carefully and get it all in writing.
 
I'm an appraiser for an insurance company.Insurance companies insure stupidity,I know I see stupid stuff every day.If you want to know why insurance rates are so high,you would not believe the fraud.I have worked in body shops and on the insurance side and have seen things that would blow your mind.

Ask people who live near the ocean who don't have flood insurance when the disaster happens and they claim the insurance companies are the bad guys.Actually, the agents could be the bad guy in my opinion if they don't make the insured aware of the risks,but the people need to educate themselves.If in doubt,please check with your agents as to what type of insurance you need and do some checking on your own,as you may need more than what they tell you.There is nothing that will make your emotions hit high,than to go to a disaster and see all the seniors that have lost everything and could have been replaced with the proper insurance.
 
I am one of the posters who has, in large measure, been harping on the insurance company issue due to a 3 year battle to install a woodstove that can be covered by insurance.

If you have the time, see this link for more detail of our story...

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/42922/

Yesterday we received word from our Insurance Broker that he has found an insurance company willing to take on our policy.

With this in mind I have two very simple points to make.

We did not wish to run ahead with our install due to the fact that one of the conditions of having a mortgage is to have valid household insurance.

Secondly, we found out the hard way that insurance companies are run by human beings. Human beings have emotions, biases and personalities. We ran into an individual, who we did realize it initially, whose biases lean towards the extreme end of interpretation of building code. This human being based his opinion of our proposed install on what both we and our installer believed to be an incorrect interpretation of the code.

We ran into a roadblock when the note I received back from this individual included the phrase, we do not feel that the clearances are adequate.

I did not help the roadblock when I replied.... "The last time I checked, a tape measure does not have feelings".

Needless to say, it was a great relief yesterday to confirm that we are going to be covered as we now move ahead with a woodstove installation that will reduce our heat costs considerably. Of course we will enjoy a much better form of heat and all of the benefits (and the hard work) that accompany a wood heat lifestyle.
 
We had a woodstove already in the house when we bought it. The insurance salesman's only stipulation was that we could put down something alse as the primary source of heat even if we were not using them. Since there were 2 electric baseboards in the living room, he put that down as the primary and woodstove as the secondary. Never had a problem beyond that.
 
I use USAA as my insurance company (they don't have agents; policy issues are dealt with centrally by phone). I called them this week to see if installing a woodstove in the log cabin would be a problem. They said their only concern was whether I needed to increase the declared value to include the stove (I didn't). They didn't have any concern about the woodstove itself, so this issue must vary from company to company.

(By the way, USAA is usually the top-rated company in Consumer Reports ratings, so they are not just some fly-by-night company, for those of you who aren't familiar with them).
 
kartracer said:
Ask people who live near the ocean who don't have flood insurance when the disaster happens and they claim the insurance companies are the bad guys.Actually, the agents could be the bad guy in my opinion if they don't make the insured aware of the risks,but the people need to educate themselves.l

I lived in Brooklyn, in a loft near the Gowanus Canal. Anyone who knows Brooklyn knows that it's a kind of dodgy neighborhood; less so now then when I was there. My wife and I wanted to get renters insurance. I called a bunch of companies (Geico, AllState, etc) looking for coverage. We were told in all cases that they would not insure us because we were in a flood zone. Anyone who knows the Gowanus knows that the chances of a flood to a second story apartment is only likely if a guy with an ark and a bunch of animals is involved. A friend's wife in the insurance business said "yeah, you've been redlined. The don't like your neighborhood, so that's the excuse they come up with not to insure you". She referred me to a local agent who laughed and found me a policy. When I bought my house I was bombarded by insurance companies offering me a policy. I stayed with the company that insured my loft.

My mother had a house 7 blocks from the ocean. They wouldn't give her flood insurance.
 
DanCorcoran said:
I use USAA as my insurance company (they don't have agents; policy issues are dealt with centrally by phone). I called them this week to see if installing a woodstove in the log cabin would be a problem. They said their only concern was whether I needed to increase the declared value to include the stove (I didn't). They didn't have any concern about the woodstove itself, so this issue must vary from company to company.

(By the way, USAA is usually the top-rated company in Consumer Reports ratings, so they are not just some fly-by-night company, for those of you who aren't familiar with them).


Absolutely. USAA is great. I have them for my auto insurance, credit card, and had an equity loan through them -- excellent to deal with. Wanted my homeowners with them, but their premiums were way out of whack compared to agents around here, so went elsewhere for that.
 
caber said:
We had a woodstove already in the house when we bought it. The insurance salesman's only stipulation was that we could put down something alse as the primary source of heat even if we were not using them. Since there were 2 electric baseboards in the living room, he put that down as the primary and woodstove as the secondary. Never had a problem beyond that.

Think the primary heat source may be a big part of it. I never had an issue buying a house with a stove installed, they did want a valid WETT certificate for it - no worries if it's installed correctly. There were questions about what the primary heat source was - we have a furnace so it was no issue. We paid a small premium for the wood stove coverage, but I'm OK with that.
 
raiderfan said:
DanCorcoran said:
I use USAA as my insurance company (they don't have agents; policy issues are dealt with centrally by phone). I called them this week to see if installing a woodstove in the log cabin would be a problem. They said their only concern was whether I needed to increase the declared value to include the stove (I didn't). They didn't have any concern about the woodstove itself, so this issue must vary from company to company.

(By the way, USAA is usually the top-rated company in Consumer Reports ratings, so they are not just some fly-by-night company, for those of you who aren't familiar with them).


Absolutely. USAA is great. I have them for my auto insurance, credit card, and had an equity loan through them -- excellent to deal with. Wanted my homeowners with them, but their premiums were way out of whack compared to agents around here, so went elsewhere for that.

+2 USAA costs a bit more on some things but service is unparalleled.
 
Actually, I told USAA that this stove would be my only heat source and they didn't have a problem with that.

(And yes, my wife and I both have checking, savings, credit cards, insurance [auto and home], IRAs, and brokerage accounts with USAA. No fees for anything except insurance, and minuscule fees on brokerage trades. I highly recommend them to anyone who is eligible to join.)
 
The way I see it, the insurance industry is looking at it this way: The less risk, the less they need to charge for premiums, the lower the price, the more customers they get. Insurance companies live in fear of what they call a "cat loss" (catastrophic loss) which are usually caused by natural disasters, etc... My mom worked for Prudential in the early '90s until shortly after Hurricane Andrew hit. Millions of people whose homes were destroyed by Andrew had homeowners insurance through Prudential and my mom was laid off as a result of the company having to pay out hundreds of millions because of so many of their customers' policies coming due at once. Now granted, it's not as if there are millions of homes in any one area all insured by the same company with faulty woodstoves, but the logic is, if there's a safety standard or code out there, why not require that it be followed? I did my install myself and exceeded code in practically every area for my own piece of mind, but all my insurance company cared about was the fact that I pulled a permit and passed an inspection. In their book I'm an acceptable risk, unlike someone who plops a Vogelzang in their living room and vents it out the side of house with PVC pipe.
 
Adios Pantalones said:
Well, the insurance company is in a gambling business. (SNIP)

I agree that buying insurance, any insurance, is a gamble, a bet:

*You are betting you will, or "might" , have a claim. This is your justification for paying their premium in the first place which may allow you to sleep better.

*The insurance company is betting you will not have a claim. They are usually right, hence their mega profits, huge buildings from premiums collected over
claim pay out.

Aye,
Marty
 
Badfish740 said:
. . . unlike someone who plops a Vogelzang in their living room and vents it out the side of house with PVC pipe.

WHAT? Is there something wrong with an installation like this? Oh man, now I have to try to return that PVC pipe to the hardware store and since it's already a bit melted I'm thinking they might not want to give me the money back. ;) :)
 
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