Has anyone tried both? What are your conclusions? I am burning BioBricks and overall I am pretty happy with them. They have a tendency to smolder though...is it the same with EcoBricks?
EcoBricks vs BioBricks?
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WoodNewbie said:
Why are you burning (or thinking of burning) either one?
You have AT LEAST a $4000 install & you're taking a chance
on damaging it & voiding the warranty.
Your Jotul insert is designed & tested to burn naturally
dried firewood ONLY.
This is an interesting question actually. So please bear with me while I am telling you why.
I live in metro Boston. Back in August 2009, the very first thing I did just right after buying my insert (the very next day) was to look for "seasoned hardwood". I found several suppliers and contacted them all (about 7) at least twice (by phone). Half of them didn't even bother to return my call. I finally decided to move ahead and have one cord of "seasoned hardwood" delivered for $279. This was the first time ever I've been buying wood...but I hate to be taken for an idiot: the wood delivered was green (some splits had actually green leaves on them) and less than a cord was delivered (figured it after stacking it). At this point, I had the choice of looking for a second supplier (and I actually contacted 2 or 3 different ones, who never came back to me). I actually preferred to spend $309 for one pallet of biobricks. I have been burning them since end of November or so. I never had the stove going above 550-600F. Obviously, I can't compare with dried wood but my house is warm and everybody inside is happy.
As for voiding the warranty, I am a bit surprised: any damages caused by overfiring the stove are not covered by the warranty. I doubt though that burning biobricks would void the warranty if it is done according to the best practices. I am not sure why but Jotul US website is actually the only one which doesn't address the issue directly. Have a look at Jotul UK for example:
http://www.jotul.com/en-gb/wwwjotulukcom/Main-Menu/Questions/Lighting-the-fire/
I live in metro Boston. Back in August 2009, the very first thing I did just right after buying my insert (the very next day) was to look for "seasoned hardwood". I found several suppliers and contacted them all (about 7) at least twice (by phone). Half of them didn't even bother to return my call. I finally decided to move ahead and have one cord of "seasoned hardwood" delivered for $279. This was the first time ever I've been buying wood...but I hate to be taken for an idiot: the wood delivered was green (some splits had actually green leaves on them) and less than a cord was delivered (figured it after stacking it). At this point, I had the choice of looking for a second supplier (and I actually contacted 2 or 3 different ones, who never came back to me). I actually preferred to spend $309 for one pallet of biobricks. I have been burning them since end of November or so. I never had the stove going above 550-600F. Obviously, I can't compare with dried wood but my house is warm and everybody inside is happy.
As for voiding the warranty, I am a bit surprised: any damages caused by overfiring the stove are not covered by the warranty. I doubt though that burning biobricks would void the warranty if it is done according to the best practices. I am not sure why but Jotul US website is actually the only one which doesn't address the issue directly. Have a look at Jotul UK for example:
http://www.jotul.com/en-gb/wwwjotulukcom/Main-Menu/Questions/Lighting-the-fire/
Have to agree. Burning compressed fuel is more common in parts of Europe. It's hard to see this voiding the warranty as long as the stove temps are monitored and overfiring is avoided. Burned properly BioBricks gave me a pretty steady temp in the F400.
Woodnewbie, it sounds like you may need to give the fire a little more air to avoid smoldering.
Woodnewbie, it sounds like you may need to give the fire a little more air to avoid smoldering.
cycloxer
Minister of Fire
DAKSY said:
That's actually not entirely true. In Europe Jøtul permits burning of these bricks. Jøtul USA says they can cause over-firing. So, who is right, USA or Norway?
Thanks BG. I was actually wondering: I am burning with the damper almost fully closed and have a steady stove temp of 500-550F. Once the stove cools to ~400F I opened it again slowly to ~half. I noticed that in your testing you open it again a little bit sooner (stove temp of 450F). I'll try that.
SteveT
Feeling the Heat
I had the same concern last year, which was my first year with the new insert. I was worried about the warranty but had very little dry wood and wanted a seasons worth of fuel. I bought six tons of BioBricks and ended up using four tons (the rest are being used this year).
I never loaded less than five or more than eight or ten bricks at a time. I kept the house warm and did no damage to the insert. I monitored the temperature with the bricks and kept it within the same range I would have expected with cordwood. There was (maybe still is) a risk; if there had been a problem with the insert, and if Hearthstone wanted to deny the warranty I probably would have given them good cause to deny it.
As to smoldering, I had the same issue when I tried to stack the bricks tightly, as described on the BioBrick website. I changed to a very loose stack, sort of just "tossing" the bricks. It worked great. They burn faster and hotter that way -- the key is to be very careful to limit the number of bricks.
I never loaded less than five or more than eight or ten bricks at a time. I kept the house warm and did no damage to the insert. I monitored the temperature with the bricks and kept it within the same range I would have expected with cordwood. There was (maybe still is) a risk; if there had been a problem with the insert, and if Hearthstone wanted to deny the warranty I probably would have given them good cause to deny it.
As to smoldering, I had the same issue when I tried to stack the bricks tightly, as described on the BioBrick website. I changed to a very loose stack, sort of just "tossing" the bricks. It worked great. They burn faster and hotter that way -- the key is to be very careful to limit the number of bricks.
cycloxer
Minister of Fire
I have never burned bio bricks or any of these things, BUT I can say that you can easily over-fire your stove with regular firewood as well. I have had a few interesting burns with really dry pine, a fun time with a puzzle stacked box of red maple, and another one with a box full of super-dry oak that I had split like kindling. So, you have to watch what you are doing no matter what fuel you are using. You just have to pay attention to what you are loading and think about how well the load is going to take off.
Well put. Burning wood is part science and part skill. That's what I like about the process. It makes you think and throws fresh challenges at you frequently. Helps make life a bit more interesting.
spirilis
Minister of Fire
In my older stoves pallet wood can overfire the beast pretty fast if you use too much, but my woodbrickfuel (similar to biobricks et al, compressed sawdust) rarely comes close. I even ran almost 3x the amount of bricks I usually use at one time in my Defiant, and it never overfired--the room just got REALLY hot from the Defiant's castings sitting at their upper temperature range for so long...
I say run 'em and watch the temps. I love my IR thermometer gun.
I say run 'em and watch the temps. I love my IR thermometer gun.
OK, I looked at the Jotul UK link you posted, & it says:
"See the user instructions for the relevant fireplace."
Look at the owner's manual for the Rockland.
That is the relevant fireplace, & it says natural wood only...
I'll call my Jotul rep tomorrow & let ya know what Jotul US
thinks about this subject...
"See the user instructions for the relevant fireplace."
Look at the owner's manual for the Rockland.
That is the relevant fireplace, & it says natural wood only...
I'll call my Jotul rep tomorrow & let ya know what Jotul US
thinks about this subject...
That would be great Daksy, thanks for the offer. Be sure the conversation doesn't drift to wax impregnated logs like some DuraFlame products. Biobricks are natural wood only. The compressed sawdust is held together by natural lignins. As far as I know, it is a 100% wood product.
I have three tons of Ecobrix. My chances of getting a good fire in an Englander NC-13 are 50-50. I did try thermawood. It burned well but is expensive. The Ecobrix are not as clean as
they claim. Also I'm not pleased with the heat I'm getting. I'm buying about four bundles of wood for this next weekend to see if it's the Ecobrix or stove. These Ecobrix give a glowing ash for many hours (10-12), but the stove is not putting out much heat in this state. I can sometimes add more Ecobrix, but they may not ignite for up to three hours. I haven't tried Biobrix.
they claim. Also I'm not pleased with the heat I'm getting. I'm buying about four bundles of wood for this next weekend to see if it's the Ecobrix or stove. These Ecobrix give a glowing ash for many hours (10-12), but the stove is not putting out much heat in this state. I can sometimes add more Ecobrix, but they may not ignite for up to three hours. I haven't tried Biobrix.
OK, here's the lowdown from my Jotul Rep.
Bio-bricks, Eco-bricks or whatever you want to use IN THE USA
are strictly VERBOTEN & you WILL violate the terms of your warranty.
The UK or Norway or Denmark or wherever you live OUTSIDE of the WESTERN HEMISPHERE
has a different specified air to fuel mixture (READ: EPA/Clean Burn) & because of that mixture,
the compressed wood byproducts are approved in European countries.
He will send me the actual tech bulletin from JotulUS & I will attempt to
post it to this forum.
Bottom line: DO NOT BURN THESE PRODUCTS IN A JOTUL APPLIANCE!
Bio-bricks, Eco-bricks or whatever you want to use IN THE USA
are strictly VERBOTEN & you WILL violate the terms of your warranty.
The UK or Norway or Denmark or wherever you live OUTSIDE of the WESTERN HEMISPHERE
has a different specified air to fuel mixture (READ: EPA/Clean Burn) & because of that mixture,
the compressed wood byproducts are approved in European countries.
He will send me the actual tech bulletin from JotulUS & I will attempt to
post it to this forum.
Bottom line: DO NOT BURN THESE PRODUCTS IN A JOTUL APPLIANCE!
cycloxer
Minister of Fire
Okay, what if you are using the EUR inspection cover (as in the case of the Castine)? Also, this doesn't entirely make sense to me as the EUR cover permits more air to enter the firebox and that would only make your fire even hotter. I cry BS on that one, even though personally I would rather burn less than perfectly seasoned wood over any sawdust brick anyday.
Thanks Daksy for asking.
I am lost as I don't understand why Jotul US would purposely build stoves which are not suited to burn any kind of fuel.
I am lost as I don't understand why Jotul US would purposely build stoves which are not suited to burn any kind of fuel.
Slow1
Minister of Fire
cycloxer said:
WoodNewbie said:
I wonder if it is as much to do with what has been tested? I.e. perhaps the issue has to do with the mfgr endorsing the burning of a fuel that has not been shown to pass EPA emissions as the stove is configured in the USA? Maybe IF the US cover permits less air through then it could adversely affect the emissions although again my understanding is that these compressed sawdust/chips type of products generally burn cleaner than cordwood. All speculation here - sounds like an answer has been given. It has seemed odd to me that there isn't a single US mfgr that endorses these products...
cycloxer
Minister of Fire
I think the issue is that these compressed wood bricks can burn pretty toasty and it is easier to over-fire the stove. So USA just says no. In Europe they literally do not have access to firewood in some areas. It is kind of hard to sell a stove w/o the availability of fuel. So they have permitted compressed fuel use over there.
I believe the US EPA regulation limits the amount of air that can enter a stove (ratio to the firebox) in order to permit its sale as a clean burning wood stove. Then on the other end the limit the amount you can throttle back the air. I know, it is confusing.
I can definitely tell you that the EUR cover on my Castine lets in 2X more air than the USA cover. Look at the difference between the two:
I believe the US EPA regulation limits the amount of air that can enter a stove (ratio to the firebox) in order to permit its sale as a clean burning wood stove. Then on the other end the limit the amount you can throttle back the air. I know, it is confusing.
I can definitely tell you that the EUR cover on my Castine lets in 2X more air than the USA cover. Look at the difference between the two:
Attachments
WoodNewbie said:
If you mean these (http://www.gefabricators.com/id4.html), I'd have to say to stay away from them. I ordered 3 pallets in October and I really should have tried to find BioBricks or EnviLogs instead. The EcoBrix are a much coarser sawdust composition and not nearly as tightly packed. This makes the bricks blow up easily to about 2x their normal size and then just kind of disintegrate into a smoldering pile of sawdust mess. They do kick out a ton of heat but it's fairly short lived, and the risk of overfire is pretty high. I can't say I've been able to get a sustained burn of more than 2 or 3 hours off of about 5 to 7 bricks, which is the max my stove will take without getting completely plugged up from these things.
I've seen BioBricks burn and they do much better, and I just burned a single EnviLog today and was rather impressed, it finished off with real coals I could use!
I have to agree with the comments about Ecobrix. Personally, I'd never buy another one. Extremely hard to light. Tons and tons of ash afterwards.
I just started trying to re start my stove. I started @ 07:30 It's 0910 and after four kindles I have a flame about the size of two cigarette lighters. Big waste of money as
far as I'm concerned. Flame went out on fifth kindle now. I'm extremely disappointed with this product!
I just started trying to re start my stove. I started @ 07:30 It's 0910 and after four kindles I have a flame about the size of two cigarette lighters. Big waste of money as
far as I'm concerned. Flame went out on fifth kindle now. I'm extremely disappointed with this product!
s0055d said:
You're getting about what I'm getting for a burn. How are you arranging them in your stove? I've been setting up sort of a tee-pee front to back on end and leaving a good 4 to 6 inches between the front of the bricks and the door for expansion , and lighting them up in the little "A" gap underneath. When the crap gets high, I do a box full of cordwood to try and burn it down.
agartner said:
6~8 bricks stacked 2 high. I do a tee pee also. I've never come across a more fireproof fuel in my life! Once in a while I get a "good burn" but more not than often. Like I said I tried thermawood and it was hot and fine.
It is more expensive though. I just filled up my oil tank today. Cannot rely on these things.
I have found that the ecobricks burn much faster than biobricks, I don't think they are compressed as much. If you are in Ohio or close there is a new manufacturer of bioblocks, same technology as biobrick.
BioPellet
New Member
DAKSY said:
Nonsense, look, why is it that Regency, Morso, etc (see www.biopellet.net) approves the use of BioBricks(R) - in fact encourages the use because of the 1.7x improvement in performace - could one reasonable explaination be that these stoves are built properly?
Also, BioBricks(R) are very dense, 1.4 times denser than dry hardwood. When you speak of "burning hot" it's kind of hard to know what is ment, but let's assume we measure how hot things burn by running the test in open air. In fact, if you do this, you find the following trend from burning hottest to coolest:
Wadded newsprint -> kindling -> dry pine -> dry hardwood -> BioBricks. Density is your friend in that it promotes a slower release of energy
BTW if the posts are correct and EcoBrix blow up and fall apart during the burn then they could be dangerous to use because this is the same as loosing density
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