Vigilant 1977 - blocked air intake

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M

miked_187

Member
Jan 27, 2010
24
sonora, ca
first fire in the new house with a Vigilant 1977 that has been installed for many years. while cleaning the ashes out of the stove today I did some prelim cleaning of the ports in the front fettle that were clogged up with ash by removing it and shaking all the ash out. now I've lit the first fire, figured out that I had the damper in the wrong position as the house filled with smoke, resolved that problem, and got a good flame going. Thermostat flapper wide open, I shut the front doors of the stove and am dismayed as I listen to the air whistling in from the front door seam and the fire starts to die down. it appears, unless I missed something else in how this stove works, that the air intake past the thermostat flapper is plugged - question is how to best clean it out.

since I've got a fire going in fireplace mode right now I'll have the possibility of hot coals in the morning so sucking the block out by vacuum is out. tried pushing a hanger into the hole on the rear of the unit but the pathway bends right away. thinking about pulling the fettle, closing the front doors of the stove , and grabbing the air compressor and blowing it blockage out. looking to see if there are any other tricks that i should know about.

thanks

Mike
 
miked_187 said:
I listen to the air whistling in from the front door seam and the fire starts to die down.
Click to expand...

This part confuses me. It doesn't matter what you think is plugged up, the front door seem should not have any space to allow a whistle to take place.
 
i agree, but that is the lesser of the issues at this point. any ideas on how to safely clean the air input?
 
I have the rebuilding manual in my hand as I write this. The passages look pretty large, so I find it hard to believe they are clogged. Did you poke the holes in the bottom of the fireback with a small metal rod? There are five of them, and they get clogged real easy. I keep a metal rod under the stove and clear them out daily. Biggest thing I don't like about mine.

When the fire goes out, close the doors, open the damper and set your shop vac hose to blow instead of suction. Hold the nozzle in the intake and seal the best you can with your hand. Turn on the vac for a few seconds, then wait a minute or so for the ash dust to settle inside. If stuff is blown all over the place inside, there is nothing wrong with your intake passages.

On the whistling door, that can only mean that the gasket is missing, the door is severely warped, or there is a piece of something (usually a hard coal) stuck in the channel that the door lip sits in. Don't close the stove down like that or you will risk overfiring it.
 
thanks for the reply, did you find the rebuild manual online somewhere?

the 5 holes on the fireback are open, I poked them thru with a rod yesterday when I was cleaning the stove. front holes under the doors are open, and the removable passageway is clear.

While I agree that those passages are ginormus I'd have to think that they are somehow blocked - no other reason for the fire to die down and the door to whistle when closed that I can think of. I take the whistling as the fire is trying to draw oxygen and that the only path is the open/leaky door. one other option that is causing the block is that perhaps something has crawled in there and nested at some point. not out of the question given the condition of the rest of the house.... :(

leaky doors are probably a bad gasket or loose latch, some of the gasket is starting to fray around the glass so I'd assume that the door seals are bunk as well. some ordering of parts seems to be in my future.

does the rebuilding manual show how to take the stove apart to expose the intakes? does the intake air only come out under the left front door? or is there a 2nd passegeway behind the fireback? the manual I downloaded from VC doesnt show the innards very well.

my shop vac doesn't blow (heh) but I might double up a combo of compressed air and vacuum tomorrow and see what I get blowing around in the firebox. but no fire tonight, bushed. thx for the reply.
 
miked_187 said:
thanks for the reply, did you find the rebuild manual online somewhere?

the 5 holes on the fireback are open, I poked them thru with a rod yesterday when I was cleaning the stove. front holes under the doors are open, and the removable passageway is clear.

While I agree that those passages are ginormus I'd have to think that they are somehow blocked - no other reason for the fire to die down and the door to whistle when closed that I can think of. I take the whistling as the fire is trying to draw oxygen and that the only path is the open/leaky door. one other option that is causing the block is that perhaps something has crawled in there and nested at some point. not out of the question given the condition of the rest of the house.... :(

leaky doors are probably a bad gasket or loose latch, some of the gasket is starting to fray around the glass so I'd assume that the door seals are bunk as well. some ordering of parts seems to be in my future.

does the rebuilding manual show how to take the stove apart to expose the intakes? does the intake air only come out under the left front door? or is there a 2nd passegeway behind the fireback? the manual I downloaded from VC doesnt show the innards very well.

my shop vac doesn't blow (heh) but I might double up a combo of compressed air and vacuum tomorrow and see what I get blowing around in the firebox. but no fire tonight, bushed. thx for the reply.
Click to expand...


The 'whistling door' is the bigger issue here. If the door isn't closed properly the fire could rage out of control, but could also prevent the fire from taking off. If the back vents are clear, the air intake that is beneath the door is clear and the horizontal burn (damper) isn't engaged than there is no clog.

How is your draft?
 
BrowningBAR makes some very good points, but I'll assume that since you can operate the stove with the doors open and not get smoke coming out that your draft is at least adequate. And if you have a good fire going with the doors open, I can't see how a leak at the front of the stove would shut your fire right down. I've closed mine down until they whistle on many occasions and the fire only continued to pick up. Are you closing the damper as well as the front doors? You can't do that until the fire is really going strong in updraft mode or your fire will just sit there, in case you didn't already know that.

My rebuild manual came from a local VC repairman. I'll try to scan you a copy and e-mail it to you, just have to figure out how to work the new scanner. Do you have an operator's manual? If not, I'll scan that for you as well.

Just so you'll know, the manual is a bit vague and confusing about the disassembly. It looks like a complicated job (can't tell because my stove is chock full right now) that will have you scraping old stove cement out and re-cementing the pieces back together. Hope you have an easier fix for your stove. But like BB says, you really have to fix those gaskets before you can get the correct burn out of your stove.
 
Battenkikker-- If and when you get that scanner figured out, would you mind CC'ing me a copy?
Mine has a minor body leak and I'd like to do a re-build in the off season. Thanks
 
BrowningBAR said:
Again, like I already said, a clog is not your problem.
Click to expand...

Other than the door leak issue I guess I didn't see mention of a different possible problem - what do you see as being the problem?

On the front door leak I've tightened the latch up, we will see if that resolves the whistling/leak problem when I fire up the stove later today, weather front getting ready to come thru "soon"
 
We have an old VC Defiant from 1979 (which also came with a new house and stayed unused by the seller for years) and experienced exactly the same problem with the first dozen or so fires. i.e. thermostat flapper wide open, roaring fire with loading door ajar, as soon as I close the door (no whistling, the door seals are good), the fire would stall then die. The Defiant doesn't have any windows, and when I say the fire stalls I mean the stove top temperature starts dropping.

That being said, I can't really tell you what fixed it. We kept messing with the stove (building fire different ways, trying different wood), but nothing that should have mattered, then all of a sudden, the problem went away. We still can not get the horizontal mode to work (damper down), but that's a whole other story. My theory is that something probably crawled in there and died and eventually my multiple smoldering fires finally toasted the corpse to dust!
 
miked_187 said:
BrowningBAR said:
Again, like I already said, a clog is not your problem.
Click to expand...

Other than the door leak issue I guess I didn't see mention of a different possible problem - what do you see as being the problem?

On the front door leak I've tightened the latch up, we will see if that resolves the whistling/leak problem when I fire up the stove later today, weather front getting ready to come thru "soon"
Click to expand...


Until the door leak is fixed you can not determine if there is any other problem.

If there isn't a clog anywhere, the stove is sealed well, you have a good draft, and you chimney is not choked down with creosote, I wood look at how seasoned your wood supply is. Best way to test that is to buy a store bought wood.
 
Miked-- When I do my yearly thorough cleaning, I tape a piece of rubber hose to the end of my shop vac, and reach into all the passages where ash accumulates. You can stick it in the exhaust passage on the back lower right side and get behind those 5 holes.
Another place you can get to with a hose is behind the thermostat from the top. Remove the flue adapter (part 17 on that exploded view) and then lift out the plate (part 12). That gives you access to all the nooks and crannies.
 
Battenkiller said:
BrowningBAR makes some very good points, but I'll assume that since you can operate the stove with the doors open and not get smoke coming out that your draft is at least adequate.
Click to expand...

making the same assumption.

And if you have a good fire going with the doors open, I can't see how a leak at the front of the stove would shut your fire right down.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking the opposite, that the stove isn't drawing fresh air well and that the leak serves to keep an input air supply keeping the fire alive. if the leak was fixed then I'm thinking that the fire pretty much dies out due to lack of air. If I open one door about 3/4" of an inch or so (other door closed) the fire whips right up as you would expect it to. no smoke in the house.

Are you closing the damper as well as the front doors?
Click to expand...

yes, my procedure (and feel free to pick this apart, I may have missed something that others would take for granted):

load firebox up about 1/2 way with dry seasoned oak, some ends and mish mash, some longer pieces 12-14". damper latch horizontal (open). light it up and get the middle section going well with flames going to the top of the box. knock some of the center area down and stack more fresh dry oak in on top. takes about 20 minutes. close the doors. thermostat lever currently wide open

at this point my understanding is that I'm in updraft mode, and now I can flip the damper handle vertical/down to move the stove into horizontal burn.

You can't do that until the fire is really going strong in updraft mode or your fire will just sit there, in case you didn't already know that.
Click to expand...

"strong" is relative, how would you describe strong?

My rebuild manual came from a local VC repairman. I'll try to scan you a copy and e-mail it to you, just have to figure out how to work the new scanner. Do you have an operator's manual? If not, I'll scan that for you as well.
Click to expand...

no hurry, but appreciate the offer. good luck with that scanner.... Yes, have operators manual that I D/L'd from VC, got it here: http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Defiant_Vig_Res_Intre_Pre88-0226.pdf

I'm following the procedure on page 12 of the pdf (page itself is numbered as 10 within the print) under "Operation"

I asked about the rebuild manual just to get a parts explosion so that I could see where the air might be coming from. Not planning on rebuilding this thing at any point. I've adjusted the door latch, off to build a fire to see how things go this time

Thanks to all for sticking with me thru this, appreciate all the input.
 
BrowningBAR said:
Until the door leak is fixed you can not determine if there is any other problem.
Click to expand...

on my way to light the fire to see if the adjustment will work or if a new gasket is needed, I'll let you know how it goes
 
miked_187 said:
yes, my procedure (and feel free to pick this apart, I may have missed something that others would take for granted):

load firebox up about 1/2 way with dry seasoned oak, some ends and mish mash, some longer pieces 12-14". damper latch horizontal (open). light it up and get the middle section going well with flames going to the top of the box. knock some of the center area down and stack more fresh dry oak in on top. takes about 20 minutes. close the doors. thermostat lever currently wide open

at this point my understanding is that I'm in updraft mode, and now I can flip the damper handle vertical/down to move the stove into horizontal burn.
Click to expand...


Let's focus on this part. First, is this from a cold start? Second, after you close the doors I think you are doing too much too quickly. Moving to horizontal burn too quickly will make the temps crash. If I switch to Horizontal burn below 500 degrees (stove top temp) it will not hold a good burn and will drop to 300-350.

At 550 degrees I close the pipe damper and wait a few minutes, I then switch to horizontal burn. I wait several more minutes before I adjust the back air controls. I adjust the back air control in stages. Too quickly and you choke the stove. I continue to adjust the air control until it is closed. If I have good wood it will hold at 500-600 for a few hours and slowly work it's way down.

Note:
You may not have a pipe damper, that is fine. I have a strong draft, with no bends in the chimney/pipe. The damper keeps more heat in the stove for me.
Having the door open for 20 minutes might indicate that you have less than dry wood. But it might not since this is an older stove. From a cold start with good wood 5 minutes with the door cracked is all I need. Sometimes less. But I have a strong draft, and you may not.
 
miked_187 said:
BrowningBAR said:
Until the door leak is fixed you can not determine if there is any other problem.
Click to expand...

on my way to light the fire to see if the adjustment will work or if a new gasket is needed, I'll let you know how it goes
Click to expand...

Unless the gaskets are new I would just go ahead and replace them. It is cheap, easy, and relatively quick to do so.
 
BrowningBAR said:
Let's focus on this part. First, is this from a cold start?
Click to expand...

yes, dead cold

Second, after you close the doors I think you are doing too much too quickly. Moving to horizontal burn too quickly will make the temps crash. If I switch to Horizontal burn below 500 degrees (stove top temp) it will not hold a good burn and will drop to 300-350.
Click to expand...

great info. there is no way I was anywhere near 500* stovetop. I could almost touch the sides. I'll work on raising top temp prior to closing the doors up.

no pipe damper, just straight pipe up to the top cap on the roof. If this light-off doesn't go well then I'll be taking the top cap off later today and having a look down the pipe as well. there was a duraflame log laying in the firebox along with some screws scattered in the ashes left behind when we moved in so I'm imagining that the pipes need some attention given the crap that has been burned in the stove over the years. I have a flue brush and the rods down in my storage that I'm going to go fetch today as well.

At 550 degrees a close the pipe damper and wait a few minutes, I then switch to horizontal burn. I wait several more minutes before I adjust the back air controls. I adjust the back air control in stages. Too quickly and you choke the stove. I continue adjust the air control until it is closed. If I have good wood it will hold at 500-600 for a few hours and slowly work it's way down.
Click to expand...

makes sense
 
miked_187 said:
great info. there is no way I was anywhere near 500* stovetop. I could almost touch the sides. I'll work on raising top temp prior to closing the doors up.
Click to expand...

You should not have to leave your doors open that long. I keep my door cracked open only for a few minutes. Once I see the temperature climbing I close the doors (usually at around 200 degrees or less). If you need to keep the door cracked for 20+ minutes it is a sure sign that your wood is not dry.

Once I hit 500+ degrees I begin to close the pipe damper or in your case you would begin to think about switching to horizontal burn mode (I would wait until you are closer to 550 to start).
 
BrowningBAR said:
miked_187 said:
great info. there is no way I was anywhere near 500* stovetop. I could almost touch the sides. I'll work on raising top temp prior to closing the doors up.
Click to expand...

You should not have to leave your doors open that long. I keep my door cracked open only for a few minutes. Once I see the temperature climbing I close the doors (usually at around 200 degrees or less). If you need to keep the door cracked for 20+ minutes it is a sure sign that your wood is not dry.

Once I hit 500+ degrees I begin to close the pipe damper or in your case you would begin to think about switching to horizontal burn mode (I would wait until you are closer to 550 to start).
Click to expand...

I need to leave the doors open right now just to keep the fire alive

what sort of temp gauge are you using on your stove? our last place had a Lopi stove with an Imperial MB0135 temp gauge
yhst-11353365108554_2091_165102826.jpg
 
miked_187 said:
BrowningBAR said:
miked_187 said:
great info. there is no way I was anywhere near 500* stovetop. I could almost touch the sides. I'll work on raising top temp prior to closing the doors up.
Click to expand...

You should not have to leave your doors open that long. I keep my door cracked open only for a few minutes. Once I see the temperature climbing I close the doors (usually at around 200 degrees or less). If you need to keep the door cracked for 20+ minutes it is a sure sign that your wood is not dry.

Once I hit 500+ degrees I begin to close the pipe damper or in your case you would begin to think about switching to horizontal burn mode (I would wait until you are closer to 550 to start).
Click to expand...

I need to leave the doors open right now just to keep the fire alive

what sort of temp gauge are you using on your stove? our last place had a Lopi stove with an Imperial MB0135 temp gauge
Click to expand...

Having to leave the doors open just to keep the fire going is an indication that your wood is wet. When was it cut, split, stacked?

I have a Rutland thermometer on each stove and a Kintrex Infrared Thermometer.
 
been awhile, thought I'd post my resolution. turns out that I pulled quite a bit of ash from the intake where the front fettle connects. used the shop vac with a short section of garden hose taped to the end to get the hose in the intake all the way to the back part near the flapper. my other problem was wet-ish wood. still a bit of moisture in the wood it turns out. have had the stove burning near non stop for about the last 3-4 weeks and it is working much better. got the flue thermometer which has helped tune the burn nicely as well.

only remaining problem is the door gaskets - any idea what size/thickness those are? local shop sells the gasket rope by the foot, but I'm not sure of the size.

thanks to all who chimed in, appreciate the help
 
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