Fireview construction question

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fire_man

fire_man

Minister of Fire
Feb 6, 2009
2,702
North Eastern MA
I was wondering if anyone knows why the Fireview is built with a small air space between the inner soapstone panels (firebox side) and outer soapstone panels.I think it's only about 1/16" and I thought I read somewhere its to even out the heat but I wonder if it's more about ease of construction. The reason I ask is it seems no air space or a thermally conductive filler would have been a better design, since soapstone is already so slow to respond to thermal peaks. The insulating air space it seems would further delay the heating times and would lower the peak external surface temps. Soapstone already helps even out the heat, the air space just adds to the thermal slugishness.I wonder if they used a thermally conductive material between the panels,the stove would heat up faster and reach a higher operating temp? I guess its just the engineer in me constantly redesigning stuff, but I know a new FV is on the drawing board and this kind of change could be made.
 
I also read that space was there to even out the heat and I think that also helps prevent cracking of the stones. I've seen a few Hearthstones with cracked stones but never heard of a Woodstock with that problem. Good question to ask WS.
 
I agree. Talk to Woodstock for the answer.
 
Soapstone is actually very conductive (for rock); the gap probably acts as insulation to boost firebox temps and reduce the likelihood of cracked stone due to large thermal gradients - the inner and outer layers can run at a difference.
 
rickw said:
Soapstone is actually very conductive (for rock); the gap probably acts as insulation to boost firebox temps and reduce the likelihood of cracked stone due to large thermal gradients - the inner and outer layers can run at a difference.
Click to expand...

Now this makes a lot of sense. The inner panels naturally run at much higher temps and with the air space there is a "buffer" to slow down the rate of temperature change between inner and outer soapstone. Next time I'm on w/ WS I'll ask.

Mornings like this morning I kind of miss cast iron - the stove burned thru its load of Beech extra fast last night (not sure why) and the stovetop dropped below 200 after an 8 hour burn. It takes a while to get cranked back up to the 250 cat zone. I think my Beech might be a little punky. Most of the time I like the soapstone but when stove gets cold it sure takes a while to reheat.
 
The airspace may also be there because it's easier to handle and prepare two thinner slabs of stone than one thicker piece. Probably easier and less costly to get the thinner stone. I've checked at some stone supply places around here and found the 2" material is several times more expensive than the 1" stuff and the labor for installing the 2" stuff is WAY higher. There may also be a slight weight savings. These stoves are heavy enough as they are. I'd hate to think about a heavier FV! My front door isn't forklift accessible! I don't remember for sure, but it seems the FV weighs something north of 530 lbs. When the two of us were moving it, it seemed like 1,030 lbs! Whew!
 
Tony, it need not take that long to get back to 250 degrees. Actually, if the stove is at 200 it doesn't take very long at all. The key is to not leave the draft open full. Leave it open full for long enough to get a good fire going and then cut back on the draft so all the heat doesn't go up the chimney. Try cutting it back to 1.5 - 2 and you should find it warming up much faster. Then once you engage the cat. that temperature goes up fast.



Terry, it definitely is heavy but not quite that much. It is heavy enough so that before lifting it we removed the door, the top lid and the firebricks. That made a big difference. The point you bring up about the difference in cost between the 1" and 2" definitely makes sense as does the other theories. It should be interesting what Woodstock has to say about it.
 
Dennis:

How long would you say it should take assuming you start from a stovetop of 200 F? I can take close to 30 minutes!

My typical pattern assuming I start with a stovetop of 200 F is as follows:

disengage cat and set draft to 4.0
load a few small pieces of bark and a few splits on the bottom to get flames started (2-3 minutes)
finish loading firebox full of splits
Wait 5-10 more minutes to get good flames engulfing most of the wood
dial draft down to 2.0 (stovetop usually has actually dropped a little by now below 200)
wait 15-20 more minutes to get stovetop up to 250
Dial down to 1.0 or less and engage cat.
Total time from disengage cat to engagement is close to 30 minutes!

This is using Beech that was split 3 years ago and has been top covered entire time. Its bone dry but is a little spaulted. I hate
when a load burns down quicker than expected overnight (like it did last night) and the stovetop gets down to 200. I'm a madman trying to get
off to work (crazy schedule) and I have to wait 30+ minutes. When the top only drops to 250 all is good and I'm off and running in 10-15 minutes.
 
Texas boy said:
The airspace may also be there because it's easier to handle and prepare two thinner slabs of stone than one thicker piece. Probably easier and less costly to get the thinner stone. I've checked at some stone supply places around here and found the 2" material is several times more expensive than the 1" stuff and the labor for installing the 2" stuff is WAY higher. There may also be a slight weight savings. These stoves are heavy enough as they are. I'd hate to think about a heavier FV! My front door isn't forklift accessible! I don't remember for sure, but it seems the FV weighs something north of 530 lbs. When the two of us were moving it, it seemed like 1,030 lbs! Whew!
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was thinking. I think its ease of construction. The earlier post on reducing thermal shock made sense as well, but it may be incidental to WS's reasoning for the air gap. The reason I bring this up relates to other posts in this thread regarding how long it takes me to get my stove up to temp to engage the cat. If the stove cools off too much overnight (to 200F) I am crazy in the morning (at 4am) trying to get it back up to temp so I can get on with my day. I am wondering if my Beech is just not providing the BTU's needed - it seems like good wood but a little spaulted (black lines in it and some white streaks, almost like fungus in the wood). It looked this way the day I split it so I know its not from sitting three years. I need some of that century old Texas dry Oak!
 
Tony, that is pretty darned close to what I do. I will also add that I can have the cat engaged in about 35-40 minutes from a cold stove. I'd hate to do it any faster though lest any stones crack.

I did a reload at 200 degrees just a short time ago. If memory serves me correctly it took about 20 minutes before engaging the cat.

One big difference is that I can choose some hotter burning wood. I cut a lot of soft maple which burns hot and also makes great kindling. On the 200 degree reload I did put in 3 or 4 pieces of kindling and then 4 splits of soft maple. I might have been able to engage a bit faster but was in no particular hurry and I like to wait a little extra time most of the time.
 
fire_man said:
Dennis:

How long would you say it should take assuming you start from a stovetop of 200 F? I can take close to 30 minutes!

My typical pattern assuming I start with a stovetop of 200 F is as follows:

disengage cat and set draft to 4.0
load a few small pieces of bark and a few splits on the bottom to get flames started (2-3 minutes)
finish loading firebox full of splits
Wait 5-10 more minutes to get good flames engulfing most of the wood
dial draft down to 2.0 (stovetop usually has actually dropped a little by now below 200)
wait 15-20 more minutes to get stovetop up to 250
Dial down to 1.0 or less and engage cat.
Total time from disengage cat to engagement is close to 30 minutes!

This is using Beech that was split 3 years ago and has been top covered entire time. Its bone dry but is a little spaulted. I hate
when a load burns down quicker than expected overnight (like it did last night) and the stovetop gets down to 200. I'm a madman trying to get
off to work (crazy schedule) and I have to wait 30+ minutes. When the top only drops to 250 all is good and I'm off and running in 10-15 minutes.
Click to expand...

I'm always amazed the amount of work folks put in to restarting their stoves!

Here's my operation:

Rake the coals to the front, open the primary all the way.

load the box full of splits, north-south. If it was a cold stove with no coals, I will put half a firestarter in the center of the fuel load, between a couple splits and light it up.

Wait 10-20 minutes until full flames are engulfing the wood, and close the primary all the way. If the coals are too few, I will take a small piece of a firestarter and put it in the front, shoved between two splits. I don't take stovetop into consideration at this point. bimetallic thermos have a bit of lag, as does cast iron, soap stone, etc.

If I'm in a rush, I will close the primary sooner. The flames may stall, but I trust my stove to get the job done, and it always does unless I have bad wood. Even if it smolders for a bit, it always gets flames going.



As a side note, I saw another thread where someone had taljked to woodstock via email. WS was saying if the stove is down to ~250 you don't need to disengage the cat, but I think If I were using a cat stove I would disengage anyway.
 
karri0n, when I read a post like yours it seems to me they are just trying to either run down the poster, his stove or else think they are putting another feather in their cap. I have no idea what else you would be trying to convey here. This is a forum to help others instead of trying to put them down.

I do not know where that thread was you got from the Woodstock advice but if it indeed stated this then someone certainly misunderstood as that is definitely not the thing to do. Also, I do not see where there is a lot of work involved in getting a fire going. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
THIS JUST IN FROM RON AT WOODSTOCK--

"The exterior layer of stone is 3/4" thick. The interior layer is 1-1/8" thick. Total stove weight for the Fireview is 485#. "

Hody cow! The interior layer is 1 1/8"!! Then on "top" of that, you've got another 3/4" layer! No wonder the stove weighs 4,850 lbs . . . I mean, 485! That makes for quite a thermal mass! Makes me consider putting some mine timbers in the basement underneath it.
 
Wonder what the top lid is in thickness, looks like it's also 3/4" but only one layer?
 
Maybe we should weight that top lid sometimes. It is not light!
 
Backwoods Savage said:
karri0n, when I read a post like yours it seems to me they are just trying to either run down the poster, his stove or else think they are putting another feather in their cap. I have no idea what else you would be trying to convey here. This is a forum to help others instead of trying to put them down.

I do not know where that thread was you got from the Woodstock advice but if it indeed stated this then someone certainly misunderstood as that is definitely not the thing to do. Also, I do not see where there is a lot of work involved in getting a fire going. Seems pretty simple to me.
Click to expand...


Yikes! I sincerely hope that's not what it sounded like to the OP!

No, That's not what I was going for at all. It just seemed to me that his issue was that he's saying it's difficult for him to get off to work because it takes so long, and I don't think he needs to be doing so many steps that are making it take a long time. Load her up, wait 10-15, shut her down and close bypass. I've seen your posts and others' posts plenty of times that seem to convey the point that the "slow to temp" myth is exactly that, a myth, and that a couple simple changes in practice can make starting the stove a lote more convenient, quick, and easy.

I'm very much in agreement with you in regards to the lack of work invovled in getting a fire going, but the OP seemed to be having trouble.


I do appreciate a swift kick in the backside if I'm being a jerk.


edit:

Here's the thread with a quote from Ron at WS:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/51611/


On re-reading, I think I DID misinterpret his response. He says that the cat does not need to be disengaged when the stove drops below 250, not that it does not need to be disengaged to reload after 250
 
I was just pondering this. How do you guys think the stove would act if those top stones were replaced with steel plate? Would it give a quicker heat but still retain most of that soapstone heat feel? Seems like you could get the best of both worlds?
 
Todd said:
I was just pondering this. How do you guys think the stove would act if those top stones were replaced with steel plate? Would it give a quicker heat but still retain most of that soapstone heat feel? Seems like you could get the best of both worlds?
Click to expand...


Both layers, or only the top layer?
 
karri0n said:
Todd said:
I was just pondering this. How do you guys think the stove would act if those top stones were replaced with steel plate? Would it give a quicker heat but still retain most of that soapstone heat feel? Seems like you could get the best of both worlds?
Click to expand...


Both layers, or only the top layer?
Click to expand...

Just the top lid which is a single layer.
 
karri0n said:
Backwoods Savage said:
karri0n, when I read a post like yours it seems to me they are just trying to either run down the poster, his stove or else think they are putting another feather in their cap. I have no idea what else you would be trying to convey here. This is a forum to help others instead of trying to put them down.

I do not know where that thread was you got from the Woodstock advice but if it indeed stated this then someone certainly misunderstood as that is definitely not the thing to do. Also, I do not see where there is a lot of work involved in getting a fire going. Seems pretty simple to me.
Click to expand...


Yikes! I sincerely hope that's not what it sounded like to the OP!

No, That's not what I was going for at all. It just seemed to me that his issue was that he's saying it's difficult for him to get off to work because it takes so long, and I don't think he needs to be doing so many steps that are making it take a long time. Load her up, wait 10-15, shut her down and close bypass. I've seen your posts and others' posts plenty of times that seem to convey the point that the "slow to temp" myth is exactly that, a myth, and that a couple simple changes in practice can make starting the stove a lote more convenient, quick, and easy.

I'm very much in agreement with you in regards to the lack of work invovled in getting a fire going, but the OP seemed to be having trouble.


I do appreciate a swift kick in the backside if I'm being a jerk.


edit:

Here's the thread with a quote from Ron at WS:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/51611/


On re-reading, I think I DID misinterpret his response. He says that the cat does not need to be disengaged when the stove drops below 250, not that it does not need to be disengaged to reload after 250
Click to expand...

karri0n: No swift kick in the backside is needed. And Thanks to Dennis for chiming in - his advice and posts are always great. I just thought I should be able to fire this thing up quicker, but after reading your posts I am not that far off. Its my madman schedule at 4am that makes me crazy and a lost 15 minutes at that hour makes me nuts. I will try like Dennis said with some soft maple but its drying for next year. I have been burning this questionable beech for the entire 2 years I have owned this stove except for a little oak thrown in twice that burned amazingly well. I am hopeful after I finish the beech this year and get to other wood that life will get better and my cranky 4am days will go away.
 
Interestingly, I don't consider 30 minutes a long time to get the Classic in my studio loaded and up to combustor engagement a long time, if the stove is pretty "cold". There are always some coals in the morning, but how many and how viable they are is subject to many variables.

My routine:
Get up, make coffee, feed cats, daily ablution and dress.
Take coffee to studio, rekindle with a little kindling, load stove, and let it start to do its thing. (Dog sniffs around the yard and pees at this time)
Return to house, have breakfast, reload coffee.
Back to studio, engage combustor, and get to work.

Neither of our stoves have the control levers you guys reference (only the controls on the doors), so I can't give you "numbers". Sometimes I leave the door cracked, sometimes I don't, depends on the coal bed that greets me in the morning. But I have a pretty good feel for the stove now and can operate it easily and efficiently on very little wood/day.
 
Todd said:
I was just pondering this. How do you guys think the stove would act if those top stones were replaced with steel plate? Would it give a quicker heat but still retain most of that soapstone heat feel? Seems like you could get the best of both worlds?
Click to expand...

My guess is for one thing you would be engaging the cat sooner because it would hit 250 above the cat quicker. I think you might have an idea there,send a note to WS! They may balk because they pride themselves on the soapstone and more CI means its more of a "hybrid"
 
fire_man said:
Todd said:
I was just pondering this. How do you guys think the stove would act if those top stones were replaced with steel plate? Would it give a quicker heat but still retain most of that soapstone heat feel? Seems like you could get the best of both worlds?
Click to expand...

My guess is for one thing you would be engaging the cat sooner because it would hit 250 above the cat quicker. I think you might have an idea there,send a note to WS! They may balk because they pride themselves on the soapstone and more CI means its more of a "hybrid"
Click to expand...

It would be kind of a neat experiment to see how the temps differ comparing stone vs steel. It would also be easy to do since you just unbolt the lid frame by 6 screws and pop the two stones out and there's your template.
 
The idea should be for the cat to get to temp quicker, not the thermometer. If the thermal resistance is decreased by using a more conductive top plate then the apparent temperature would have to be higher before turning on the cat; and it would take longer to get there.
 
rickw said:
The idea should be for the cat to get to temp quicker, not the thermometer. If the thermal resistance is decreased by using a more conductive top plate then the apparent temperature would have to be higher before turning on the cat; and it would take longer to get there.
Click to expand...

I figured since WS says to engage the cat when the top hits 250 and a cast iron top would reach it quicker, you'd be engaging sooner. The cast iron is getting hot from the cat burning its smoke, the soapstone would see more of a lag. I'll bet there is a 20+ degree lag from the cat hitting 250 and the soapstone top hitting 250. Just my rambling thought...
 
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