Downdraft Too Scary-Called Dealer and Travis

Sounds like it is working like it should. With dry wood and cold weather and a decent chimney like yours, it will be very hard to turn down a "nuclear" stove like that. The only thing you can really do is limit the fuel, use larger splits and/or fiddle with a turn damper or barometric damper.

But most of us wish for that kind of combustion!

My stove runs out of control too. When I load full for the night the flue temps run up past 850 and the stove top up to 450 (stove redline of 600, normal 350) and there is nothing I can do to stop it but it stops itself before damaging the stove. We give up control for the sake of emissions with the modern stoves. Is anything glowing on your Lopi? Does it run away out of control to an actual overfire? If the lack of control bothers you then joint the club. If you deem the draft excessive and the cause for the runaway then by all means but a damper in the flue, that's what they're for.

1200 is too hot. Your pipe, well almost all pipe, is rated at 1000 max continuous internal temp. How are you measuring it? Probe meter I hope. Turns out the probe meters are off by about 200 at the top end according to the latest test sequence. So 1200 indicated is likely 1000 actual. I would pee if I couldn't keep it below 1000 actual. I like that I can apparently always control it down to 850 or so.

Every time that your pipes reach a new highest ever temp you will get some smell off of it. Once it has been cured to those higher temps it shouldn't make smell again.

Rather than a flue damper, is it possible to partially or completely block air from entering through the OAK connection? Lopis are made in WA where the OAK is required so surely there is a connection. It's super easy to block most of these as a test. One guy even used a big magnet.

I can't imagine how a top loading stove doesn't puff smoke when you open the lid. When you do open the lid you spoil the draft which is why some stoves can be run without a front door and not overfire. I wonder if that contributes to puffs of smoke when you open the whole top of the stove.

Not sure how hot my harman gets in the backchamber!but looking into the chamber threw the chamber window i get a good glow when its burning good!At this point the temp in the main stove is around 400/450.When i first got my downdraft stove i was alittle worried if the glowing of the fiber material in the back chamber was normal but have been told by the store i bought it from and others that it was normal.From what i have read from others here the flue above the chamber gets two to maybe 3 times the temp reading in the front part of the stove so a temp of over 1000 may be normal.I have a video i just made of my stove in action and at the end of the video you can see what my stove looks like when the afterburn is working. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BV2O_fGrCs

I'm not sure if it is the gaskets. All gaskets leak, but the leaks become heavier when the draft is stronger....so having some wood gas explosions could be a result of that.

Chances are that the same fixes mentioned - larger logs, a few less seasoned and a baro or turn damper, will help with the mini-explosions also because they mean less smoke is being generated at one time.

Highbeam said:

Lopis are made in WA where the OAK is required so surely there is a connection. It's super easy to block most of these as a test.

Click to expand...

The Leyden has a connection for an oak, but you can't expect that blocking this will create any restriction in the draft. The casting that has the OAK flange on it has no seals, so the stove can freely suck in air around the sides and especially where the draft control rod passes through a pretty big opening.

When you close the bypass and shut down the smaller draft control, you should lose all the flame in the main firebox after a few minutes and the wood should burn very slowly. You should also hear the rumble from the combustor in the rear of the stove. When the combustor is going well, the internal temperature inside there is going to be running between 1300-1700 degrees F, so you'll see a spike in temperature at the flue that will continue as long as the combustor is lit. I've measured the internal temp with a probe going going through a small hole drilled in the back of the stove. (I've since removed the probe and replaced it with a screw, no harm done.) If the rear casting under the shroud glows deep red in low light, you're a bit hotter than you want to be. I've had mine do this once.

If you still have active flames in the main firebox after closing down, then you certainly have a leak, and I think you've come to that conclusion. The backpuffing is going to occur because you have a buildup of smoke in the main firebox and you're getting air leaking in there that leads to the little explosions when conditions are just right.

I hope this helps...

I've been lurking in the wings on and off for a a while. Between your user name and your troubles with the Leyden, I had to sign on and share my view (I'd much rather be chasing trout!).

Last year I had an Arbor, the Avalon equivalent, installed to replace an existing Fisher. I've heated with wood on and off for 30 years counting running a couple different old Franklins growing up. I wanted to replace the Fisher so I could heat and watch the fire, get up to date, and have more control. My hearth is a "winged" brick floor and walls, all the way to the ceiling, with an 8" straight run up thru a two story house, probably 17' or so from the top of the stove. Above all else, I wanted control and simplicity.

My Arbor had a blower on it, and it helped a lot in cooling things down. I had the same experiences you are going thru right now. Small gas explosions, run-away conditions especially if I tried to load it up for the night, extremely hot (I did not have a flue probe) burning; basically conditions I didn't trust. I bought it due to be advertised as a non-catalytic, again trying to keep it simple. I didn't want to get into changing catalysts periodically.

I found the primary air control to be flimsy and not precise at all. Obviously these EPA cert stoves can't be shut down all the way, that's just the nature of the beast. But like you, when I shut it down as far as it would go, I would often still find myself sitting up late watching raging flames and rising temps, just hoping it would eventually settle down. One night, we had a "major" wood gas explosion that blew the lid open and slammed back shut. I was amazed the glass didn't break and ran outside to see if the chimney cap had been blown off. During normal operation with the combustor engaged, the bricks were hot to the touch, almost too hot to touch, since most of the real burning takes place in the back of the stove.

I had that stove for about 2 months of operation. The ratchet system for the bypass door stripped and wouldn't hold tight in that amount of time. The combustor cracked. I began to really evaluate what I had from a maintenance standpoint and started counting gaskets and also realized that the despite being called non-catalytic, that combustor was for all intents and purposes, a catalyst. It requires high temps to engage secondary combustion, burns at high temps behind the scenes, and when pressed, the Travis tech guy even admitted is a consumable that will need replacing after several years. As I recall, there is a gasket in the ash pan, 4 gaskets in the double doors if you count those between the frame and glass, a gasket on the top lid, and a miserable-to-replace gasket in the bypass door assembly. With the cracked combustor and stripped ratchet, Travis sent all the necessary parts to my dealer and they replaced everything under warranty. Could not have asked for anything more. But I did.

After my dissatisfaction, my dealer agreed to credit me full purchase price of the Arbor toward an Olympic which was very decent of him. The Arbor is a much nicer looking stove and I miss the top loading, but the Olympic is so much more simple. It will still get cranking and even run away if you're not right there to shut things down. But I'm learning that it will max out below the over firing level and really makes a lot of heat. I kept the blower, and with the design of this stove with a shroud around it, the bricks behind it never get beyond just warm to the touch. That's with or without the blower running. Granted its a completely different design being a top draft, but I have found the simplicity I was looking for and think it is a great stove. There are only two gaskets, the door to the firebox and the door to the glass. No ash pan, no bypass door, although there is a bypass slide control.

That's my story and with your similar experiences, I thought I would share. Not sure if my route is for you, but be warned - the Olympic is a heat throwing monster! I heat my entire 2 story house of 2700 sq ft with it. It is hard to keep it under 75 to 78 degrees if it is above 25 degrees outside. This weekend both mornings were around -10, cranked it up and let it cruise at 600 with the blower on high and brought the house up to 72 to 74 degrees within 90 minutes and kept it there no problems while it stayed in the single digits outside. I should also add that the Arbor smoked a lot less. Both are good, but the Olympic smokes more during the early stages of the burn cycle.

Brad

Glad to hear you're making progress, they all take some time to figure out. I think part of the issue with the Arbor/Leyden is with the shallow firebox (front to back), you have to pile the wood on top of each other to get a full load, making it an "all or nothing" fire. Do you have a blower? I highly recommend it, both from a heating the room and cooling the stove standpoint.

And I can't wait for late April or early May for the Hendrickson hatch! Believe it or not, I jump in the car and travel a couple hours to the Catskills to fish the Delaware for most of my fly fishing. I have a 16.5' Hyde drift boat that I run on the main stem, the float is half the fun. I also do quite a bit of steelhead fishing on the Lake Ontario tributaries, mostly the Salmon River. Will be back up there in a few weeks.

Good luck!

Troutchaser, I hope you've got it figured out, let us know if indeed it was the door gaskets. Im a little aprehensive after reading your issues here, as you know, I have a leyden too but have not had any problems with it whatsoever. I leave all day long, day after day, with the bypass closed while I'm gone, without any issues at all, the house is warm when I return and there are enough coals for a full reload for the evening. It is such a huge difference than my other downdraft...the Dutchwest. In fact, I've been enjoying my leyden so much I'm actually going to say that I would buy it again tomarro, even though I'm more educated now and know the "ins and outs" of the downdrafts. I've never had a "puff" with the Leyden but have had many with my Ducthwest and have seen smoke literally "explode" out of the minute cracks around the flue collar and door seals during such an event. I can remember actually being able to recognize when it was about to happen...a syrup of blue flame rolling around the firebox in ever diminishing amounts then the snuff followed by a sudden ignition. The DW never went "nuclear" but itdid a fair amount of the backpuffing...I hope my Leyen never develops that problem...That being said, when one of the puffs happen, look at where the smoke is exiting...it may hold the key to the leaky seal. After I tightened up the door and collar seal on my Dutchwest, I havent have the backpuffing issue...just the same old stalling with the bypass closed.

Troutchaser, I make it point to never open the front doors on my leyden, for two reasons, one I don't want the ash mess spilling out, and second, I want the seals nice and tight. I clean the glass through the top door in the infrequent times when the stove is cold. I can't express how more and more satisifed I'm getting everyday with this stove. I used to think that it might have been another mistake getting this stove, but when I drive up to the house at lunch and don't see a bit of smoke from the chimney, then the house is warm without the furnace ever turning on, a smile of pure satisfaction returns to my face. And you can load the bejesus out of this stove, no more fighting trying to get the logs in from the side, it is far easier from the top... I'm even getting better at not letting any smoke in while I do a full reload... yes, me and my leyden are really beginning to come to an understanding with eachother. I have never burned a conventional EPA stove with top baffels so perhaps I'm really missing something, but that ignorance is becoming bliss.

I refer to the flue collar as the piece that comes with the stove which you can turn 180 degrees depending on rather you want the flue horizontal or vertical. On my ducthwest, the seal between this piece and the stove body laxed after 3 years and at one point I actually saw a smoke ring "puff-out" in a perfect circle around the flue straight from this piece. After removing it and simply reseating it on the same gasket the smoke puffing from that location stopped. However the backpuffing did not, it was only after a concentrated effort of tighting the ash, front and side door gasket did it go away. The leyden allows much more overall air control than the ducthwest; for example, when starting a fire, on the Leyden I simply open the primary air all the way and I have plenty of combustion air... With the ductwest, I would have to crack the ash door to get the same draft. That said, I could see how additional air with the Leyden could seriously offset combustion. With a nice hot coal bed and an inordinate amout of incomming air, insead of the incomming air regulating combustion, now the fire is being is regulated by the bottleneck of gasses trying to escape the shoe... the result... backpuffing... Make sure the shoe has room to breath (not clogged in the throat with coals) and investigate all incomming sources of air. Your on the right track. And no, my latch does not go that far down, it firmly seals really close to horizontal. But my ash drawer latch, now thats a different story, I've have had to fiddle with it over and over as the jam nut goes through cycles of tightening and loosing...either the darn thing is too loose and floppy or so tight I cant even actuate it...I've got to figure out a solution to that...

Wow! I can't believe your LOPI LEYDEN is giving you fits. I have used mine for my 2200 sq. foot home here in Iowa with great results. I burn oak and hickory which is a definite advantage over soft woods. I did experience after three years a bit of back puffing from the top lid two nights ago. I got the fire hot shut out all the lights in the room and I could see the flame between the top door. Not good! I pulled out the gasket and repositioned it. Problem solved. I do need to install a new gasket however.

Opening the top door of the Leyden will never smoke if you have a flame. However you must have the doors shut and the top lever in the up position. Ihave never let the top of my stove exceed 650 degrees. By dropping the top lever and pushing the damper in all the way I can get a very slow burn. It was 8 below when I woke up this morning. At 10:30 p.m. last night I loaded it with oak and ash. This morning at 7:00 a.m. I had 3 in of solid red coals. I have not made a fire in this stove for 40 days. I empty the ash tray every morning. It is important not to let the ashes accumulate over a days burn since the ash will fall into the combustion chamber and create problems. Once the ash is out, load with wood, open the ash door and you will have a fire in seconds.

If you still have problems with your Lopi call the company.

If your looking for a good fire starter try paper lunch bags half full of garden bark you find at Lowes or Walmart. I just fill half way and staple the tops. No other kindling is necessary. No mess and a great cheap fire starter.

Instead of buying the $ 200 optional fan for the Lopi which I did buy a $ 20.00 Duracraft fan from Sears. Set it on it's back on two small pieces of 2 X 4's and tuck it underneath the fan hole in the back. It is quieter and works better than the expensive one. You can't see it as well.

Hope all this helps.

Hope your tameing your lopi troutchaser!Down draft woodstoves can be a challenge at times!not like my dads and brothers I2400 Regencys with the big fire box and tubes on top.I also get alittle backpuffing at times if i close the air flow alittle too much and have some less than dry wood giving off some smoke to ignite.Like me once you get to know what your stove will do!you should have many years of heat and enjoyment from it.This is my third year now with the harman and life is good.

I have a Lopi Leyden stove that always ran very hot soon after packing the box 3/4 full of wood. The rear combustion area of the stove would start to glow red at approximately 650 degrees (measured at the top of stove just in front of the stove pipe) and would continue to grow in size until virtually the entire rear combustion cover (not including the flue collar) would glow red. I have approximately 6 feet of Simpson DVL double wall stove pipe, and 30 feet of Simpson Dura-Tech insulated stainless steel chimney. Draft has never been an issue. In order to address my over-heating issue I disassembled the stove and replaced the following items: front door gaskets, glass and glass gaskets, rear damper gasket, griddle gasket, ash pan gasket, combustion box and all associated internal gaskets (my combustion chamber was crumbling). I essentially rebuilt the entire stove. I checked the stove for any additional leaks with the use of an incense stick and determined that the stove's panel seams were not leaking. The stove is as tight as it was designed to be. Having said that, my stove STILL runs hot when loaded up and there is no way to dial it down. With the air inlet pushed all the way in (minimum air feed), the stove will crank along at 725 degrees with the back combustion area glowing red and will stay there for hours. There are active flames (low level, but active), and just runs its course until the fuel supply is exhausted. I have thought above installing a damper but would hate to create a creosote problem. My concern is one of trust. I have stayed up many nights to verify that the stove does not go completely nuclear. It doesn't, but I just don't like seeing the stove glowing red. I am sure there are many others who have experienced this same issue with their stoves and would like to know what they have done to address it. It's hard to believe that Lopi designed the stove to run this hot...