looking for advise on venting with single wall pipe.

well, first and foremost, no solid-burning appliances are supposed to be installed in garages, NFPA211 12.2.4 "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage".....if your insurance company gets wind of that, that will likely invalidate it, and any inspector who knows his/her job will likely fail the installation.

If you use single wall pipe you'll be probably burning thru it fairly often. If this stove can vent straight out the back and that is your planned design, just go to a fireplace shop and spend $200 on a 4" pellet vent kit. If you must use single wall pipe, you should be able to go into a hearth shop and buy a 3" pellet vent thimble which you may be able to sneak a 4" single wall thru. Hell, I'm tempted to see if I have anough 4" pellet vent in stock here to sell it just above cost and ship it to you, just so it's done right. PM if your interested with the details of your install.

Franks said:

If you use single wall pipe you'll be probably burning thru it fairly often. If this stove can vent straight out the back and that is your planned design, just go to a fireplace shop and spend $200 on a 4" pellet vent kit. If you must use single wall pipe, you should be able to go into a hearth shop and buy a 3" pellet vent thimble which you may be able to sneak a 4" single wall thru. Hell, I'm tempted to see if I have anough 4" pellet vent in stock here to sell it just above cost and ship it to you, just so it's done right. PM if your interested with the details of your install.

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beg to differ, but using ANY 3" or 4" pellet vent thimble and then simply using regular 4" pipe (not pellet pipe) through the thimble is also unallowable. The thimbles are manufactured to be used with the pellet vent AS A SYSTEM, not solely standalone as a wall passthru. The clearance criterion listed with them depends on utilizing pellet piupe as well, not 24 guage single-wall smokepipe.

Beg to differ one which point?

Franks said:

Beg to differ one which point?

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on using single wall pipe (non-pellet vent) in conjunction with a pellet vent thimble.

single wall stoves pipe is not designed to pass through a wall, no matter what you use for a wall pass!! all it is designed to do is connect an appliance to a chimney. i don't have my nfpa211 right here but i know its in there. in the state of maine nfpa 211 is code and as lousyweather stated its not allowed.
lousyweather glade to see someone that knows what a code book is, and how to read it.

pellet pup said:

I tried getting this info from my town hall and they told me there is no fire code for pellet stoves to just follow manufacturers specs. And my insurance lady said to follow local building codes. So this is how I ended up here. My manual says to maintain six inches clearance with single wall. So who has the final say here.

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well, pup, its not my home, so, I guess ultimately its YOU who is the responsible party here.......the town isnt likely to stick their necks out, but man, I cant beleive an inspector would allow single wall pipe through a combustible wall, with 2 inches or clearance, 6 inches, or 3 feet! fabricated piping is a SYSTEM, meant to be used as such, and not cobbled together with alternate parts, etc. which is what you'd be doing if you ran single wall through a pellet thimble...FWIW, most pellet thimbles give you 2" of clearance. I will check NFPA211 hopefully today...dont have mine on hand either.

pellet pup said:

I tried getting this info from my town hall and they told me there is no fire code for pellet stoves to just follow manufacturers specs. And my insurance lady said to follow local building codes. So this is how I ended up here. My manual says to maintain six inches clearance with single wall. So who has the final say here.

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Your insurance lady is only the insurance policy seller/agent. She does not write or set policy . You need to get this OK directly from the insurance company in writing.

pellet pup said:

The only way I would do it is with an insulated thimble of 6 or 8 inch variety. And that's only if my insurance company signs off first. The thimble is rated up to 2100 degrees. But I was still thinking of wrapping it in mineral wool to be safer

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be careful of packing anything off with mineral wool as well......heat would accumulate and possibly not dissipate.....the rule to follow here would be to follow the instructions provided with the thimble.

pellet pup said:

I tried getting this info from my town hall and they told me there is no fire code for pellet stoves to just follow manufacturers specs. And my insurance lady said to follow local building codes. So this is how I ended up here. My manual says to maintain six inches clearance with single wall. So who has the final say here.

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In the absence of any local code the manufacturers installation instructions becomes code as far as the local situation is concerned. However state code can also come into play.

The proper application of multiple codes requires the more restrictive provision be followed.

An example would be if the state said you need maintain at least 8" clearance and the book says you need to maintain at least 6" clearance the state has the more restrictive provision and also meets the manufacturers requirement. You follow the state requirement.

If it was the other way around you would follow the manufactures instruction as that would also meet state code. Do not however get into the situation of thinking that since the state says 6" you'd be fine going that route, why you ask, because you just setup a situation not covered by the testing lab that provided the safety rating for the device and this will raise hell with the insurance companies.

Maybe check with the fire chief or building inspector, town or counties. I know my township gives a pamphlet on the rules for all types for stoves, fire places when you apply for the building permit to put a stove in. Also I was looking into putting a wood stove in my garage 20+ years ago and even then you could use single wall pipe from the stove up then the pipe had to attach to a piece of insulated chimney and go through a wall thimble. Forget the clearance now but think it was single walled had to be 18 inches from combustibles.
Cant see being allowed to run a single walled pipe through a wall thimble but don't know the rules where you live. Dont give up looking for the right answer has to be somebody that knows for sure.

Lousyweather said:

well, first and foremost, no solid-burning appliances are supposed to be installed in garages, NFPA211 12.2.4 "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage".....if your insurance company gets wind of that, that will likely invalidate it, and any inspector who knows his/her job will likely fail the installation.

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I have a pellet stove in my garage . With a permit and inspected buy the city . Reported to the insurance company ,no surcharge with a pellet stove .
I do have the proper vent ,and it is installed to the exact requirements of the code .
So if you are concerned about insurance call them and ask ,they will know .

Excell said:

Lousyweather said:

well, first and foremost, no solid-burning appliances are supposed to be installed in garages, NFPA211 12.2.4 "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage".....if your insurance company gets wind of that, that will likely invalidate it, and any inspector who knows his/her job will likely fail the installation.

Click to expand...

I have a pellet stove in my garage . With a permit and inspected buy the city . Reported to the insurance company ,no surcharge with a pellet stove .
I do have the proper vent ,and it is installed to the exact requirements of the code .
So if you are concerned about insurance call them and ask ,they will know .

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ok, fine, but I didnt make-up the NFPA211 code...it exists, and it exists for a reason. I can tell you MOST insurance companies dont know JACk about code or whats safe. Why dont you put a stove in the garage? Hmm....I dunno, gas fumes, flammable liquids maybe? If the town inspects a situation that you know is foolish and dangerous, do you do it anyway, just because some beuracrat tells you it looks ok? You might be interested to note that in situations where an inspector "misses" something in ionspection, or is just plain wrong, the municipality is not held to blame. It usually goes back on the Responsible Party, ie: the installer, and if no installer, then the homeowner.........

all I can tell you is that its unsafe, regardless of what people do "all day long", certain codes just make sense. I can say that I am not misinterpreting NFPA 211, and that wherever you live, there must be odd physics involved that invalidate this particular set of codes, and make everything Ok where you live. :cheese:

Lousyweather, NFPA code is not recognized in all jurisdictions, them being correct or not is immaterial to weather a particular installation is to code.

As difficult as it may be for some of us to agree with that, it is in fact how it is.

The definition of a garage is:
"an outbuilding (or part of a building) for housing automobiles
a repair shop where cars and trucks are serviced and repaired "


The fact that I have an overhead door installed in my rear outbuilding does not necessarily make it a garage even though an automobile can be stored inside it but the code is there to protect future owners too. Just because I don`t park a car inside it doesn`t mean the next owner won`t.
The interpretation of the building use will no doubt vary from one town ordinance enforcer to another and probably from one insurance company to another.


That said, Mine is installed in my rear garage/workshop as per makers instructions but without a permit. If the stove causes the garage to burn down and insurance don`t pay, so be it. It`s just an outbuilding.
I`m about fed up with someone else wanting me to conform with every goddamned silly little rule and regulation their simple minds can think up mostly created to increase the city`s coffers..

SmokeyTheBear said:

Lousyweather, NFPA code is not recognized in all jurisdictions, them being correct or not is immaterial to weather a particular installation is to code.

As difficult as it may be for some of us to agree with that, it is in fact how it is.

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Be that as it may, Smokey, the lack of code, or willingness of officials to approve nearly anything in some areas does not make it a safe situation ("it must be safe cuz this guy sez so"). At some point, the onus is put on the homeowner to ultimately decide whats best, and thats what Pellet Pup is going to have to do here. Pup asked for suggestions in his original post, lol, and I suggested what he was going to do was a bad idea, and still stand by it (pellet stove in the garage and running single wall pipe through a combustible wall)...all we can do here is suggest.....The Responsible Party is the one who makes the final decisions...and in the end, he is Responsible.........for whatever happens.....or not.

Gio said:

The definition of a garage is:
"an outbuilding (or part of a building) for housing automobiles
a repair shop where cars and trucks are serviced and repaired "


The fact that I have an overhead door installed in my rear outbuilding does not necessarily make it a garage even though an automobile can be stored inside it but the code is there to protect future owners too. Just because I don`t park a car inside it doesn`t mean the next owner won`t.
The interpretation of the building use will no doubt vary from one town ordinance enforcer to another and probably from one insurance company to another.


That said, Mine is installed in my rear garage/workshop as per makers instructions but without a permit. If the stove causes the garage to burn down and insurance don`t pay, so be it. It`s just an outbuilding.
I`m about fed up with someone else wanting me to conform with every goddamned silly little rule and regulation their simple minds can think up mostly created to increase the city`s coffers..

Click to expand...

Agreed 100%, Gio! (pertaining to silly rules) But you are all set to eat the cost if the garage or shed or whatever if it were to burn down......what if the garage is attached (as most are attatched to the home or part of the home)? Then are you willing to eat the cost of a total loss of the home and contents possibly? Or worse yet, injury to the occupants?

a few relevant links:

http://www.startribune.com/local/13973266.html

http://members.cox.net/messman123/ShopBlows.htm

http://newstopic.net/pages/full_story/push?article-Stove+pipe+causes+destructive+fire &id=4969700

http://www.click2houston.com/news/4082607/detail.html

http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/501568.html

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2007/03/06/news/news10.txt

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/44680107.html

do I need to go on?

Virtually every fire (links below) was attributed to a woodstove with no safety controls . One was even caused from a dropped fuel tank in a garage and one a makeshift carpentry shop, both with wood stoves burning. There was an absence of common sense in both.
Still, any open flame space heater has to be a safety consideration for anyone but pellet stoves are by their design much much safer than a wood stove.
Sure, I agree with everything regarding city ordinances , insurance , and safety itself being the priority. I can`t really make an argument against any of it.
We owners will ultiminately be held responsible for anything other than a perfectly safe inspected /insured installation . That`s a chance we all take anyway when we have a solid fuel appliance installed in our home whether we get it approved or not.
Actually I wired a new house once that burned down during the winter. The cause was a nail thru an electric heat wire , the breaker never blew and sparks simply started a fire in the middle of winter. (No one was living there at the time)
So much for safe elecric heat , inspections, and insurance. chit happens!

Lousyweather said:

a few relevant links:

http://www.startribune.com/local/13973266.html

http://members.cox.net/messman123/ShopBlows.htm

http://newstopic.net/pages/full_story/push?article-Stove+pipe+causes+destructive+fire &id=4969700

http://www.click2houston.com/news/4082607/detail.html

http://www.lockhaven.com/page/content.detail/id/501568.html

http://www.swtimes.com/articles/2007/03/06/news/news10.txt

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/44680107.html

do I need to go on?

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So I guess you guys are telling me that you will put these things in your house .leave it running while you are sleeping .But I should be afraid to leave it alone with my car . That doesn't make sens to me . I live in Canada and it is dam cold here . If you don't have heat in your garage it is useless for anything but parking . I would not how ever install single wall stone pipe for a vent . I also would not install it with out an out side air kit . I also have my stove on 18 in.high concrete pad ,part of the code .
to me this is as safe of a heat source as any thing else as long as it is installed correctly . That's my story and I'm sticking to it .

Lousyweather said:

Gio said:

The definition of a garage is:
"an outbuilding (or part of a building) for housing automobiles
a repair shop where cars and trucks are serviced and repaired "


The fact that I have an overhead door installed in my rear outbuilding does not necessarily make it a garage even though an automobile can be stored inside it but the code is there to protect future owners too. Just because I don`t park a car inside it doesn`t mean the next owner won`t.
The interpretation of the building use will no doubt vary from one town ordinance enforcer to another and probably from one insurance company to another.


That said, Mine is installed in my rear garage/workshop as per makers instructions but without a permit. If the stove causes the garage to burn down and insurance don`t pay, so be it. It`s just an outbuilding.
I`m about fed up with someone else wanting me to conform with every goddamned silly little rule and regulation their simple minds can think up mostly created to increase the city`s coffers..

Click to expand...

Agreed 100%, Gio! (pertaining to silly rules) But you are all set to eat the cost if the garage or shed or whatever if it were to burn down......what if the garage is attached (as most are attatched to the home or part of the home)? Then are you willing to eat the cost of a total loss of the home and contents possibly? Or worse yet, injury to the occupants?

Click to expand...

I guess it boils down to common sense . And an attached garage is not quite the same as a garage out back.