Tarm BLT control box

What does that control cost?

From the piping diagram at Bioheat http://www.woodboilers.com/userfiles/file/Solo Innova Plumbing(1).pdf it appears that the BLT takes input from a L6008A aquastat on the storage tank, the TT from the fossil boiler, and uses those signals to turn on or off a zone valve and a circ pump. This could all be accomplished with a few DPDT relays that only cost a few dollars each...

It also states: "The control includes an on/off switch and a threeposition switch that includes wood only operation, back up only operation, or wood with automatic back up operation." This means you also need an on/off switch and a three position switch...

It then says: "Integral diagnostic indicator lights simplify trouble shooting." I would guess this means there are lights to show what is on or off so you can tell what is supposed to be happening.

I would suggest running all of it with 24vac. The DPDT relays are double throw so that means controlling a load (ie zone valve or circ) and have a light indicator is no problem.

Sounds like a simple and inexpensive thing to make... If I had a half hour to spare, I could probably figure out the logic of the wiring and draw it out for you. Maybe Nofo will jump in and do it. (he'd only need 15 mins...)

Doug - If you draw up a diagram of your system, we could probably devise a way to control it with aquastats and inexpensive relays. The BLT appears to be specifically designed for the piping schemes Bioheat draws up. There are other ways to do things though. Let us see what you have for a system (or what you propose for a system) and I am sure we can come up with something that will cost less than $400...

I can help come up with a way to control your system that will cost a lot more than $400 if that's the goal ;-)

If you do come up with a schematic. I'd appreciate if you would post the diagram. I am trying to come up with the same thing myself to substitute for the BLT. In my inexperience, I am looking at Honeywell Aquatrol Contol Panel AQ2504B2, http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/69-1982.pdf to run all my wiring through, as it has both 115v and 24v output terminals. I have the L6008A SPST aquastat for the pressurized storage tank, which will be heated by my Solo Innova. I am trying to work it just like Woodnotoil describes above. In my case, for the aquastat to be part of a circuit to turn or off a Grundfos circ pump, a two position 24v Honeywell motorized ball valve, and the forced hot air furnace fan. And if the thermostat is calling for heat and there is no 150+ degree water available from either the boiler, or storage, to switch on the whole forced hot air furnace. I don't know if the wiring can all be done within that Aquatrol panel or if I need to add something additional to be the equivalent to the BLT. Anybody know?

Mike

I just built a relay set up for my tarm with storage that uses a single SR501 taco relay and a pair of RIBU1C relays . What I have it doing is my system will run off the tarm till its depleted then te tarm pump shuts down the grundfos alha zone pump runs till my storage is depleted , when my agua stat in the top of my storage hits its low limit it then cuts the neutral wire to the taco relay when The RIB sees a loss of power it then does a thermostat connect to my gas boiler provided that 2 conditions are met ! the master gas thermostat has to be calling for heat and a zone thermostat has to call for heat . Total cost off of EBAY was lss than 50 bucks and 2 nights of lost sleep . The beauty is if it breaks I built I can fix it .

Thanks Webie. That's just what I'm trying to do. I looked at the RIBUIC relays on Ebay. They looked like they would do the trick as a SPDT relay. If you wouldn't mind a dumb question, do you screw the threaded fitting on that relay into something else like a junction box? I notice other relays have prongs on them. Do you know what the pronged fittings are supposed to connect to? Do you connect wires directly to them or do they fit into a socket with screw on connectors for the wires? If the wires connect to the prongs I dont see what would hold the whole relay in place?

Pictures below of each type. One on the left is an RIBUIC. Couldn't figure how to make both pictures the same size.

Mike

I had a lot of success with DPDT relays like this one. It can go into a socket like this one. The nice thing about the DPDT relay is that you can also put a simple indicator light on the other side of the relay. These relays are really just an on/off switch that is thrown by the charging of the coil. Here is a picture of what the terminals do.

WoodNotOil or anyone else, here's a followup dumb question. Are the sockets your link showed supposed to fit in some type of control box that would contain various switches and relays or do you just screw the individual socket to the wall or someplace else and run wires to it as needed. Pardon my ignorance, but I have to learn this somehow. Judging from my picture and yours there is not a universal configuration for the way the prongs are arranged. I'm guessing you would usually need to purchase matched sets. I've seen references to "plug and play" components like these, but have no idea what they are either. Thanks for your help.

Mike

dogwood said:

Thanks Webie. That's just what I'm trying to do. I looked at the RIBUIC relays on Ebay. They looked like they would do the trick as a SPDT relay. If you wouldn't mind a dumb question, do you screw the threaded fitting on that relay into something else like a junction box? I notice other relays have prongs on them. Do you know what the pronged fittings are supposed to connect to? Do you connect wires directly to them or do they fit into a socket with screw on connectors for the wires? If the wires connect to the prongs I dont see what would hold the whole relay in place?

Pictures below of each type. One on the left is an RIBUIC. Couldn't figure how to make both pictures the same size.

Mike

Click to expand...

Yes the threaded fitting fits an electrical junction box , in my case I just attached them to my taco relay .

RIB relays aren't the cheapest but they are self contained, can be hard wired any-place.
Rob

dogwood said:

WoodNotOil or anyone else, here's a followup dumb question. Are the sockets your link showed supposed to fit in some type of control box that would contain various switches and relays or do you just screw the individual socket to the wall or someplace else and run wires to it as needed. Pardon my ignorance, but I have to learn this somehow. Judging from my picture and yours there is not a universal configuration for the way the prongs are arranged. I'm guessing you would usually need to purchase matched sets. I've seen references to "plug and play" components like these, but have no idea what they are either. Thanks for your help.

Mike

Click to expand...

The sockets are specific to the brand and type of relay, so they are not universal. You can mount the socket anywhere you need to and just screw the wires in. For $14 for the relay and socket you can add some logic to your controls for not much money. If you are just looking to control the oil not coming on all you need to do is have an aquastat or pump trigger the coil to interupt the TT connection to the oil boiler. If you have storage, you would probably need an aquastat on that to be able to tell the relay when the tank is hot or not.

Once again. We could be more specific if you could give us a diagram of your system...

Thank you Webie, RobC, and WoodNotOil. That was just the information I needed. WoodNotOil, I will be working on my wiring schematic today and will post it for comments here or as a new post as soon as it is done (hopefully today). Thanks for offering to look at it. I do have the L6008A SPST aquastat for the pressurized storage tank. BioHeat sent it along with the package of parts for the Solo Innova.

Mike

Dogwood

It sounds like all you need to do is put the OB Aquastat (not sure what you interupt exactly) through a relay and have the coil charged by the aquastat on the tank and by the aquastat on the Tarm (or the pump itself) to interupt the aquastat and not allow the OB to run if the wood and/or the tank is up to temp. If the vac is different (ie 24 vs 110), then just use two relays so that the signal is interupted if either one has a charged coil.

Webie, I am going to replicate the wiring setup you descibed. It meets my needs exactly. You mentioned using a pair of RIBU1C relays in it. You mentioned the first one does a thermostat connect to your boiler. Where do you have the second one situated, and what is it's function in your setup? Nice work.

Mike

dogwood said:

If you do come up with a schematic. I'd appreciate if you would post the diagram. I am trying to come up with the same thing myself to substitute for the BLT. In my inexperience, I am looking at Honeywell Aquatrol Contol Panel AQ2504B2, http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/69-1982.pdf to run all my wiring through, as it has both 115v and 24v output terminals. I have the L6008A SPST aquastat for the pressurized storage tank, which will be heated by my Solo Innova. I am trying to work it just like Woodnotoil describes above. In my case, for the aquastat to be part of a circuit to turn or off a Grundfos circ pump, a two position 24v Honeywell motorized ball valve, and the forced hot air furnace fan. And if the thermostat is calling for heat and there is no 150+ degree water available from either the boiler, or storage, to switch on the whole forced hot air furnace. I don't know if the wiring can all be done within that Aquatrol panel or if I need to add something additional to be the equivalent to the BLT. Anybody know?

Mike

Click to expand...

OK I am going to try and guess here a little on setting this up as I am not familiar with your set up . I think from what I have read is you have a solo innova + storage and a hot air furnace .I am thinking right now that your solo innova has similar logic to my solo and has an aqua stat to start things off with to turn on your pump that cycles the water from boiler to storage and back , then you have a second pump that is wired to your L6008A that when its hot enough will run . I am also thing that your zone valve is about your only logic and has dry contacts which when closed by a thermostat opens the zone valve and then turns on your Grundfos circ and sends water thru your HX in your furnace and your furnace fan is set to run all the time . Am I correct on all this so far or am I mistaken .
My set up with relays simply does this the first relay is to turn off my zone pump when my primary boiler pump is running , I needed this as my house was set up for low 160 heat and if I left the zone circ kick on and off when the boiler was running I got alot of fluctuation in my house , this takes care of it pretty good as my water is split with some going to heat storage along with some circulating in my zones The second relay is controlled by my storage aqua stat . If my storage is above 120 it has the second relay basically does a connect to an erie zone valve shutting off my storage and connects the the TT wires to my gas boiler allowing it to be operational.
I have it wired a little more complicated then this but that's about it in a nutshell , I wired in a gang box to the taco controller with several light switches that allow me to override the zone circ cut off along with the gas boiler if I wish .
Your system if I am right probably will be very easy to do but I need to know if my information is correct.
Webie

I'm using a RIB wired to the terminal that shuts off fan for Tarm blower (#11 I think). So when the Tarm shuts down / fire out blower shuts off / it interrupts power to Tarm's supply return piping circulator. Don't know if that's in your logic.
Didn't get this in mornings post RIB's have a built in light, too.
Rob

webie said:

If my storage is above 120 it has the second relay basically does a connect to an erie zone valve shutting off my storage and connects the the TT wires to my gas boiler allowing it to be operational.

Click to expand...

So is it the thermostat connection that needs to be interupted in the fossil unit aquastat to keep it from coming on? I know that is probably the case with a forced air furnace, but does that apply to an oil boiler aquastat as well?

I thought I would have a diagram to post by tonight after working out all the wiring. However after consulting a couple times with BioHeat, I found their PT3 schematic, http://www.woodboilers.com/uploads/public/PressureTank(PT3).pdf, has an unnecessary zone valve, ZVI, and the aquastat pictured immediately after the boiler is eliminated. (Please copy and paste the whole link above into the address bar, the last three letters didn't highlight. Tried to attach it as a picture but it was too big). These changes messed me up. I will eliminate the ZV1 to make the wiring simpler.

I only have two zones. One for the W/A heat exchanger in the plenum above a propane-fired forced hot air furnace, the other for the flat plate heat exchanger servicing the the DHW. I have the L6008A SPST aquastat for my 1000 gallon pressurized storage tank. I have the L4008B overheat aquastat, set to 200 degrees. It is to be connected to the circ pump servicing the w/a hx. I also have the Termovar Loading Unit pictured in the diagram. It is turned by the Solo Innova when it is firing.

When the house thermostat calls for heat it needs to turn on the circ pump in the first zone to draw hot water from the Solo Innova if it is firing. The thermostat needs to turn on the furnace fan below the w/a hx at the same time. If the Solo Innova is not firing, then the circ pump needs to draw instead from the 1000 gallon pressurized storage when above 150 degrees. If storage is below 150 degrees, then the whole furnace, not just the furnace fan, needs to be turned on by the thermosrat with the circ pump left off.

The DHW located on the second zone is simpler. When the aquastat for DHW is calling for heat, the circ pump for the flat plate's boiler supply side needs to be turned on to draw from the Solo Innova if firing. If not firing, then the circ needs to draw from the pressurized storage if over 150 degrees. If storage is below 150 degrees, then for the circ pump to be off. A second recirc pump which circulates water through the other side of the flat plate from and back into the DHW tank will need to be turned on and off at the same time. The propane-fired DHW tank can turn itself on, like it does now, if the flat plate has no heat available from the boiler or storage to bring it up to temp.

The wiring should be straight-forward you would think, but I've about had it today. With the aquastat next to the boiler eliminated, I can't figure how the forced hot air furnace would know to turn itself on if the boiler is firing in the circumstance the storage tank not up to temp. Maybe getting a read from the Tarms's blower as RobC suggests would get it. Tomorrow is another day. Thought I could maybe get this done with a couple RIBs and maybe a couple Taco SR501's, or one Taco 503 relay box. I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to wire this. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help and suggestions.

Mike

Now mind you here I havent looked at the diagram yet just from your explanation of your system .
I think this is what I would try and do if possible . First leave your solo out of the picture , this will be hard to do but for get it for a while its only there to heat your storage and that is all set up for it to work
What you want is very easy if aquastat in storage is 150 plus you want your burner to NOT work in your regular furnace .
I think you can probably do this for about 10 bucks and change with just a single RIB
Have the RIB coil energized by your aquastat and wire it to control your power to your burner, So in other words if the RIB is energized it has your burner (oil or gas ) disconnected when your aquastat cools it disconnects your zone pump for your HX and then reconnects your burner via a RIB.
Now I will look at the diagram .

I for what ever reason cant get into that document . Some of what you want to control and what is all possible is dependant on your burner control for your furnace .

Webie, if you copy the whole link below and paste it into your address bar to send, the PT3 schematic will open right up. Be sure you copy the ".pdf" at the end of the link along with the rest of the purple letters. Thanks for your time.

http://www.woodboilers.com/uploads/public/PressureTank(PT3).pdf


What you said above makes perfect sense. But what would signal the furnace not to fire if the thermostat was calling for heat, storage was below 150, the Solo Innova was firing, and the zone circ was pumping heat to the W/A hx directly from the Solo Innova through the bypass loop, before the storage was back up to 150 degrees. That's what I can't figure out how to wire, since BioHeat said to eliminate the aquastat that would have provided that signal to the furnace, presumably through another RIB I could have wired in the same way you describe the storage aquastat and RIB providing that signal. Am I making any sense?

The eliminated aquastat is labelled "A" in the PT3 schematic. The eliminated zone valve is labelled ZV1. Thanks for your, or anyone elses help.

Mike

Ok , Diagram just about what I thought for your system , Still need to know what kind of controls your hot air furnace has for operation in order to set up relay or relays , Its possible you may have to get like a Taco relay with TT input to control your furnace but without seeing or knowing furnace controls its hard to say . Its totally possible to to just use a relay from a seperate thermostat to your zone valve that does a jump wire to your hot air furnace blower turning it on and we just leave your gas furnace operate as it always has on its own thermo that you can set a few degrees cooler if you want . There are numerous ways to achieve what you want , none should be really expensive .