I fully understand dry wood (burning for 33 years as only source of heat) so not sure what you are saying, I live along a river valley so plenty of wood where I live.bboulier said:
Do you think most stove burners dont burn right?
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gyrfalcon
Minister of Fire
oldspark said:
He's just joshing you about the trees. Other than that, he's agreeing with you.
I wonder whether Vermonters' inefficient wood-burning practices are related to the extensive forest cover. You'd think hard-working farmers wouldn't want to do all that extra work, but maybe the chore of cutting before you absolutely need the firewood is just too much when you've got so much else to do. There's less work in the winter, so easier to just go out and chop something down and throw it in the stove if you can get by that way.
A lot of the old places here have no central heat and folks still burn 24/7, getting up in once or twice in the middle of the night to reload, so once they get the fire going in the fall, it never goes out and they can keep throwing the green stuff on it.
I think a lot of people just keep doing the same old thing year in and year out, never really giving much thought to the "hows and whys" of burning wood. They have a stove that "works good" and year after year they keep using it and burning the same way they always have. They congratulate themselves on how inexpensively they heat or augment the heat in their homes. They don't give a bit of thought to how their old stove impacts their neighborhood's air quality, let alone the environment at large.
It's the same mindset that pervades a lot of other things. In my trade innovation and improvements in sewing technology are frequently met with a good deal of skepticism or outright derision. The result being some people remain comfortably ensconced in technology that was state of the art in 1960, laughingly dismissing "new fangled" things until they find their bids on jobs can no longer compete.
Some people are into learning about things and trying new things, others just aren't. It works for them, but I sure don't get it.
It's the same mindset that pervades a lot of other things. In my trade innovation and improvements in sewing technology are frequently met with a good deal of skepticism or outright derision. The result being some people remain comfortably ensconced in technology that was state of the art in 1960, laughingly dismissing "new fangled" things until they find their bids on jobs can no longer compete.
Some people are into learning about things and trying new things, others just aren't. It works for them, but I sure don't get it.
Burning Chunk,
As Gyrfalcon said, I was just "joshing". I think one of the reasons I like fireplaces and wood stoves is that I was deprived as a child. Not much wood to burn where I grew up. I was amazed the first time I flew into North Carolina from Nebraska when I was a senior in high school. Didn't realize there were that many trees in the whole world. The "buffalo chip" remark has a grain of truth. When I was in Boy Scouts, Valentine, Nebraska had the largest buffalo herd in the nation. We camped in the wildlife reserve and burned buffalo chips to keep warm on a cold fall night and also for cooking. We were very careful which ones we picked up.
Bryan
As Gyrfalcon said, I was just "joshing". I think one of the reasons I like fireplaces and wood stoves is that I was deprived as a child. Not much wood to burn where I grew up. I was amazed the first time I flew into North Carolina from Nebraska when I was a senior in high school. Didn't realize there were that many trees in the whole world. The "buffalo chip" remark has a grain of truth. When I was in Boy Scouts, Valentine, Nebraska had the largest buffalo herd in the nation. We camped in the wildlife reserve and burned buffalo chips to keep warm on a cold fall night and also for cooking. We were very careful which ones we picked up.
Bryan
gyrfalcon
Minister of Fire
bboulier said:
I was too polite to mention it before, but the idea of a guy from Nebraska jeering about the lack of trees in Iowa is kinda eye-rolling.
So did the buffalo chips really burn well?
Dry buffalo chips burn well. They are hot and odorless. We used them for stew in the evening and pancakes in the morning. Dried dung is a common fuel throughout Asia. You might want to read Marie Sandoz's "Old Jules". The book is quite extraordinary. Makes one happy to grow up in the 20th century.
Bryan
Bryan
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
gyrfalcon said:
"Well that is how my daddy did it and grandpa did it that way too. It is just the way it is done!" Right...
It is sad but that attitude will prevail with many folks probably as long as they live. Just last week going into town I passed two homes that heat with wood. Both put their wood in the basement. Both had just cut fresh loads last week....and are burning it this week.
It just blows my mind that many people are burning green wood, until I joined this forum a few weeks ago I assumed most people who burned wood knew what they were doing, one guy mentioned that these people were not idiots but I think they are in this case. IMHOBackwoods Savage said:gyrfalcon said:
"Well that is how my daddy did it and grandpa did it that way too. It is just the way it is done!" Right...
It is sad but that attitude will prevail with many folks probably as long as they live. Just last week going into town I passed two homes that heat with wood. Both put their wood in the basement. Both had just cut fresh loads last week....and are burning it this week.
Slow1
Minister of Fire
oldspark said:
I don't think most are necessarily "idiots". I'll be a bit nit picky here - there is a difference between being ignorant and being stupid. Being ignorant is simply not knowing better for whatever reason. Stupid is knowing the difference and still choosing to burn the green wood despite having the means to do otherwise. Just look how many folks have come here and changed their ways - as well as the folks that have been converted by members here. I think that there are quite a few burners out there burning green wood and even less than well dried wood simply because they don't understand the benefits of doing otherwise.
Unfortunately stubbornness plays a large part in this - somehow stubborn and stupid seem to get mixed up pretty easily as folks will refuse to even look for alternatives or see them when they are hit over the head with well seasoned splits to hear the ring of the wood. But of course there are plenty of stupid ones too
firefighterjake
Minister of Fire
Backwoods Savage said:nojo said:
Yes, I do think that most wood stove burners do not burn right.
1. Some have absolutely no clue as to proper practices.
2. Naturally, the fuel has be in the equation too. As was stated on this forum by someone, even when folks finally realize that their wood is not as dry as it should be, they are very reluctant to admit it. After all, they bought the best from a well respected wood seller and he told them that it was good seasoned wood. Not until they burn dry wood will they see the light.
3. Most folks don't even know what type of wood they have.
4. Most folks have no idea how to season wood nor do they realize the length of time it requires.
5. A lot of folks (like Jake) use a hydraulic splitter in the horizontal mode rather than vertically because they are more comfortable splitting from a standing position and do enough sitting at work . . . and they have good, strong backs and utilize proper lifting techniques . . . and are built like Paul Bunyan and
6. The practices of controlling the stove: I read too often about folks who can't get their stoves hot enough....even with the draft fully opened! No wonder the stove won't get hot because too much heat is going up the chimney. There can be many other examples.
7. Poor installs; dirty chimneys, etc.
A good example is that fellow who can't seem to get his stove to 400 degrees and thinks that is really hot. Well, it is hot to touch, but not hot for a wood heating stove. And what about that soapstone cracking? I think the only way it would crack would be by hitting it too hard with a log or some other object or by heating it up too fast, especially after setting cold all summer. Otherwise that soapstone can take a tremendously high temperature.
HehHeh . . . I fixed your quote Dennis.
By the way, I agree with everything else.
firefighterjake
Minister of Fire
Not everyone out there is burning improperly . . . I mean many are, sure . . . but many folks are burning properly, but doing so in old smoke dragons so they're going to be burning inefficiently . . . and many that are are burning efficiently we may never know about since we never see the smoke coming out of their chimneys, they don't smell like wood smoke when we run into them at the general store and we don't hear the local fire department being paged out to a chimney fire at their house.
That said . . . yeah . . . I think most folks continue to burn improperly . . . most because it's the way they were taught. What worked for their Dad or Grandpa is the way they learned . . . and many either never learn no change their ways (and as a result think the problem is always with the new-fangled EPA stoves and not the fact that the wood they are burning is too green) or they are happy enough with the results they're getting and do not realize that there is a better way of burning.
These are the folks who think it is normal to have heavy creosote deposits in chimneys . . . and it is not unusual to have to call the fire department at least once during the winter for a chimney fire . . . or that pine causes chimney fires . . . or burning green wood results in longer burn times . . . and that cutting in the summer and burning in the fall is plenty of time to season the wood. If you try to tell them a different way of burning they may listen . . . or they may get defensive and say their way works . . . a lot depends on the person and personality.
I would not call these folks idiots . . . but rather uninformed. While it is easy to blame the dealers who may give out poor or no information (and lots of promises) on how to burn wood, I have found that many woodstove manuals are pretty good at describing how to run the stove and how important seasoned wood is . . . but even barring bad or missing information in the owner's manual, in this day and age with the internet folks with any problem or question can always do a quick search and find the answers. If a person has a problem, they can often find the answer . . . if they are motivated enough. If a person wonders if the new guy in town and his new fangled ideas of burning is a bunch of hooey or if folks out there in the wide world have also found these ideas to be valid or not . . . again, he or she can find the answers . . . if they are motivated.
However, many of us do not like change, being told how to do something and we're not always good at planning out future events . . . and so many continue to keep doing what they've always done . . . since it doesn't involve changing the way we run the stove, our way is working already and besides, who has time to cut, split and stack wood a year in advance . . . I mean that's just plain crazy, right?
That said . . . yeah . . . I think most folks continue to burn improperly . . . most because it's the way they were taught. What worked for their Dad or Grandpa is the way they learned . . . and many either never learn no change their ways (and as a result think the problem is always with the new-fangled EPA stoves and not the fact that the wood they are burning is too green) or they are happy enough with the results they're getting and do not realize that there is a better way of burning.
These are the folks who think it is normal to have heavy creosote deposits in chimneys . . . and it is not unusual to have to call the fire department at least once during the winter for a chimney fire . . . or that pine causes chimney fires . . . or burning green wood results in longer burn times . . . and that cutting in the summer and burning in the fall is plenty of time to season the wood. If you try to tell them a different way of burning they may listen . . . or they may get defensive and say their way works . . . a lot depends on the person and personality.
I would not call these folks idiots . . . but rather uninformed. While it is easy to blame the dealers who may give out poor or no information (and lots of promises) on how to burn wood, I have found that many woodstove manuals are pretty good at describing how to run the stove and how important seasoned wood is . . . but even barring bad or missing information in the owner's manual, in this day and age with the internet folks with any problem or question can always do a quick search and find the answers. If a person has a problem, they can often find the answer . . . if they are motivated enough. If a person wonders if the new guy in town and his new fangled ideas of burning is a bunch of hooey or if folks out there in the wide world have also found these ideas to be valid or not . . . again, he or she can find the answers . . . if they are motivated.
However, many of us do not like change, being told how to do something and we're not always good at planning out future events . . . and so many continue to keep doing what they've always done . . . since it doesn't involve changing the way we run the stove, our way is working already and besides, who has time to cut, split and stack wood a year in advance . . . I mean that's just plain crazy, right?
zzr7ky
Minister of Fire
- Jun 12, 2006
- 1,053
"I would not call these folks idiots . . . but rather..." relatives!! Once the old stove is installed I haven't noticed any changes in routine until the old stove fails. They just keep running a heavy chain down the unlined chimney and hope for the best.
Change comes slow. Slower than indoor plumbing!
Change comes slow. Slower than indoor plumbing!
cycloxer
Minister of Fire
I would say most people try to burn properly, but they often have to burn less than perfectly seasoned and dry wood because they don't plan ahead and order their wood early enough and then they do not store it in a location that keeps it dry.
My Father in-law has had a woodstove for ever. He has his his delivered in September and "Knows" it is all oak because.......the Wood Guy says it is. It hisses and kinda burns which is ok for him because ....it's only supplemental. BTW he has a chimney fire every other year.
gyrfalcon said:
For 30 years this Old Spark (or Old Fart) cut in the spring and summer and heated this joint with it in the winter. Only after happening onto hearth.com did I get religion and start stacking three years ahead.
And the fact of the matter is that except for using half the wood I used to use heating ain't all that different now. The first year I had the new EPA stove I was burning oak cut the past spring and didn't crap up the pipe. Of course I have always burned whatever stove I had at the moment between five and six hundred degrees on the stove top just because that is where they stopped smoking out of the chimney.
gyrfalcon
Minister of Fire
BrotherBart said:
There you go. That's what the folks here do. And although I'm sure there's the occasional chimney fire, in the four years I've been here, there hasn't been a one that did enough damage to mention either in the local papers or the gossip mill.
Fact is, in order to get three years ahead on the firewood, somewhere in there you've got to do a lot of extra work in order to get there. Can't say as I blame people -- or call them "idiots" -- if they decline to do that on the say-so of some "expert" from somewhere telling them they should. It doesn't seem particularly strange to me when people take the attitude that they don't need to take a chance on changing something that's always worked well for them.
pulldownclaw
Feeling the Heat
When my wife and I bought our first home 14 years ago we inherited a smoke dragon stove. We had baseboard electric heat, and I quickly grew fond of the stove and trying to save money by burning it. I never gave much of a thought to getting our wood dry, just mostly concentrated on accumulating it. I think since it was pre-epa it burned more forgivingly. Not until we bought our second home and I started researching a wood stove purchase did I really "get it". Now I am on board with getting my wood laid up ahead of time, and learning more and more every trip to the hearth. ;-)
Can't believe there are so many on here that cut green trees in the first place. Aren't there any dead trees back east? Or is it just that they have not been dead long enough when you cut them? I guess maybe I am just too used to big wide open spaces and plenty of good dry wood available. Pine is what is burnt here 90% of the time, and I will only cut standing dead trees. Those are the trophies to me. Sure, plenty on the ground too if you're in the right place.
gyrfalcon
Minister of Fire
wyosioux said:
That's a really good question. I'll ask around when I get the chance. But I assume dead trees are taken, but in a 10 or 20-acre woodlot, which is typical for around here, there aren't going to be enough of those from year to year to supply your burning needs. Folks around here tell me their big, drafty, uninsulated old farmhouses use 15 to 20 cords of firewood for the winter. Where I live is (lightly) populated mostly by struggling small dairy family farm operations. I'd guess 3/4 or more of the land is cleared for pasture or feed crops, with young woods on the sides of the many ridges running up and down the valley, mostly young, long-lived hardwood species, maple and beech predominating.
As you probably know, there's an irrational fear of burning softwoods here in the East, so what little there is around doesn't usually get cut at all for firewood. Even the sugaring operations tend to use vast quantities of the abundant sumac that crops up in weedy field edges.
Where do you cut your trees, just curiously? Is it on your own land?
I have not read the whole thread but I was burning some October cut, january split locus , it was not to wet, burned and acted like coal, and last night I had secondary burns going on OUTSIDE the stove door, by a good two inches, bright blew flames out of nowhere ! wow , never seen that in 12 years burning this thing. It was like the blew flame spilled out when I opened the door.
Slow1 said:
Slow, that is simply false. Even oven-dried wood will create prodigious amounts of water in the flue gases. One of the major products of the complete combustion of wood is water (the other is carbon dioxide). For every two hydrogen molecules found in the wood, an oxygen molecule will combine with them to form one molecule of water. There are a lot of hydrogen molecules in a pound of wood. In fact, a pound of oven-dried (i.e. 0% MC) wood will produce about .54 pounds of water vapor when burned to completion. Wood at 20% MC is sending up about .75 pounds of water vapor for every pound of wood burned. With three 50-pound charges a day, that's 150 pounds of wood x .75 = 112 pounds of water or about 14 gallons.
Ironically, wetter wood that burns less efficiently will actually form less water as a product of combustion than will dry wood, so the total amount of water going up the flue may be the same in either case.
I find it rather humorous that "old sparks" like myself are held in such low regard by the newer burners here because we simply won't accept the "facts" that are available today. Then the same folks reject all of the real scientific facts that I repeatedly present here, demonstrating who, in fact, really have the closed minds.
Fact: Wet wood, burned at a high enough temperature, can produce a tremendous amount of heat. The amount of real heat loss due to the evaporation of water in wood of 40% MC is only slightly more than wood burned at 20% MC. The difficulty is in achieving those high temps with green wood alone. Most intelligent green wood burners (I used to be one) are skilled enough to get a raging fire going with drier wood and to add wet wood only as long as there is enough heat in the stove to support good combustion. Long lasting, clean and stable burns with good flue temps are totally possible with experience.
Here (again) is a chart from the wood burning industry showing the low heat values of wood at varying moisture contents. It is based on physics, not on personal experience or conjecture, taken from a book by Dr. Jay Shelton, one of the county's leading solid fuel experts back in the 70s:
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cycloxer
Minister of Fire
The reason most people burn hard wood in the east as opposed to soft wood is because we have a plentiful supply. Why bother with pine if you have oak and maple available at a reasonable price? There is about 1/3 more energy in those woods. It is difficult to give away your pine in MA and you often have to pay to have it removed from your property.
I have been to many XC ski lodges in VT and NH where they are using wood stoves as a primary heat source. Their wood is not always perfectly dry, and is usually cut that season and stored outside. However, as Battenkiller explained, this doesn't much matter if you are running a big, hot stove. At one place they are running a massive pre-EPA VT Castings Defiant and at another an F 600 Firelight. These stoves are run hard, like work horses, usually with the air intake wide open. I have even seen them crack the side door open on the Defiant and run it that way for awhile.
Now, I will post a picture of the coolest example of a serious heater later this week. The guy runs a 900 degree stove top temp and he heats his entire shop this way. Anyone want to guess what kind of workhorse he is running?
I have been to many XC ski lodges in VT and NH where they are using wood stoves as a primary heat source. Their wood is not always perfectly dry, and is usually cut that season and stored outside. However, as Battenkiller explained, this doesn't much matter if you are running a big, hot stove. At one place they are running a massive pre-EPA VT Castings Defiant and at another an F 600 Firelight. These stoves are run hard, like work horses, usually with the air intake wide open. I have even seen them crack the side door open on the Defiant and run it that way for awhile.
Now, I will post a picture of the coolest example of a serious heater later this week. The guy runs a 900 degree stove top temp and he heats his entire shop this way. Anyone want to guess what kind of workhorse he is running?
cycloxer said:
Ya, they probably cracked the fireback as well. LOL
Interesting that those guys are burning semi-dry in the F 500. I was told by my local Jotul gurus that the bigger Jotul would handle semi-seasoned fine. I should have said that it really takes a big firebox to burn green wood cleanly. You can get it going in a smaller box by splitting the wood much smaller, but that way you always end up with a mass of small coals and little flame after a while. Temps eventually drop, stove stops putting out good heat and burns just smolder and smoke.
My Vigilant (about the size and output of an Oslo) would handle green just fine, but I feed it dry anyway because I have it. But every now and then this winter, I'd drop a big damp oak round on the top of a raging fire and just watch it disappear in its own flames. Five hours later, it's still a nice big hunk of furious coal, where smaller dry splits would be long gone. Stove would still be plenty hot, so I never bothered to count the BTUs that I theoretically lost.
cycloxer
Minister of Fire
They are running an F 600 Firelight and you know the wood is not so dry because the front glass is so dirty it looks like they are burning coal. The key is that these guys are all running 600-900 degree stove temps. It's like dropping wood into an incinerator.
If I head down to the bike shop today I will bring the camera so I can show you the beast this guy is running. I couldn't believe he was running at 900 degrees. He says, yeah, everyday. The stove is built like a locomotive though.
If I head down to the bike shop today I will bring the camera so I can show you the beast this guy is running. I couldn't believe he was running at 900 degrees. He says, yeah, everyday. The stove is built like a locomotive though.
firefighterjake
Minister of Fire
wyosioux said:
Oh sure there are some standing dead trees . . . but in some areas there may not be a whole of standing dead trees. If I'm in an area and see a decent standing dead tree I'll take it, but honestly Maine hasn't really been hit yet with beetle kill, oak wilt, asian long horn beetles, ash-killing bugs or aliens from outer space (word is they have them in New Hampshire though.)
Currently I'm cutting alongside a field . . . most of the trees in this area are good, healthy trees. Since my goal is to get firewood and keep the branches and trees at bay I'm not worried about culling sick, dead and twisted trees . . . although in other areas I will often cull these trees, leaving a few good, mature trees to continue seeding the area with future generations. There are some dead softwoods where I am cutting . . . some of these will end up as firewood . . . and some as mulch since they are not valued as highly as the hardwood (plus some of this softwood gets pretty punky even as standing dead wood.)
I will also admit that I am sometimes leery of cutting down some standing dead trees . . . to me cutting standing dead wood is a bit more dangerous than cutting a live tree as there is a greater possibility of large, dead branches or the top snapping off and falling.
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