Return temp

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I have a termovar , pretty much the same thing , Both need a ball valve in line for the hot water mixing supply line to control the pressure and ( temperature ) for the mixed return boiler water . The magic setting of the ball valve is between 1/2 to 3/4 open . This is about the only PITA in the whole mix.
 
I am still trying to figure out the danfoss, I am forever screwing with the ball valve. It says when return reaches 140* (I think?) the by pass closes and full water flow to storage. well mine dosent seem like it closes because I can have return water at 160+ and still hear water flowing thru the bypass loop. I then shut the bypass loop off when I have good return temps. Still looking for a better setup.


Rob
 
Termovar does the same thing , remember PITA is what I said , The things are designed to control a minimum temp , after that it doesnt care .
 
Since you don't have storage, I would not put one of these on. You only need these if you have a large amount of water returning. Storage tanks, snow melt and cast iron radiators are the main reasons to put on return protection.
 
tbsdolmar said:
Since you don't have storage, I would not put one of these on. You only need these if you have a large amount of water returning. Storage tanks, snow melt and cast iron radiators are the main reasons to put on return protection.



Very good point!!!!

Rob
 
Find out what your return temp is. If it's over 70c you are alright. If not you risk plate damage. My Atmos must be run with boiler water temp between 80C & 90C & 78C return temp with a Laddomatt 21 accomplishes this, Randy
 
I do not have any large volume returns but do have a Termovar installed. I was under the impression that it was needed. Storage but more likely a melt zone are future possibilities though. Ball valve is 100% open....guess I need to watch the return temps?
 
If it is a PITA to set a ball valve correctly would there be any advantage of using a balancing valve like Danfoss recommends. Locally a 1" balancing valve is $60.00 and a ball valve is $15.00 so the cost is not an issue. Below is a picture of the valve I am refering to.
 

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mark123 said:
If it is a PITA to set a ball valve correctly would there be any advantage of using a balancing valve like Danfoss recommends. Locally a 1" balancing valve is $60.00 and a ball valve is $15.00 so the cost is not an issue. Below is a picture of the valve I am refering to.

A balancing valve is not capable of responding to variable temps in a system. It is not intended for temperature protection, only restricting flow to a given circuit or device.

Danfoss/ESBE makes a really slick mix valve/pump station that is used for boiler protection. Can't find the web page on it right now. Variable speed pump controls which look for a set point temp work well as a boiler bypass/protection too.
 
All non condensing boilers need return temperature protection. The boiler AND the flue piping needs to get above the condensing mode to prevent deterioation of the heat exchanger and flue piping. Even thick cast iron can be ruined in a years time if the return is not watched and compensated for.

The question is how long is too long. Many boilers start from a cold condition, maybe even room temperature. Most in the industry would like to see the boiler warmed within 10 minutes, same for the flue piping. No more than 15 minutes in my opinoin. Also avoid short cycles where the boiler runs down to below and "sweats" often.

The provide adequate protection you really need a device that can sense temperature and react accordingly. A bypass pipe and valve will not provide this. A bypass pump alone will not.

Three way thermostatic are one common choice. You need to look at the spec sheet to properly size one. Valves have a Cv rating, simply the amount of gpm you can flow through the valve with an industry recommended 1 psi pressure drop. Most 3 ways have a 3 Cv, high flow 5 Cv.

Now you can flow more than 5 gpm through a valve, but the pressure drop, or resistence to flow goes up with increased flow. excessive flow can cause wear, and noise problems. We put together an Excel sheet to show how this relationship works. In this example a 5 Cv valve flowing 20 gpm (moving 200,000 BTU/hr perhaps) has a pressure drop of 16 psi. So you can see how pump size jumps up considerable. really thermostatics were designed for DHW applications, not really continous flow at high gpm rates. better brands have larger volutes and cartridges to allow more flow. Large flow thermostatic valves get pretty $$.

Also watch the other numbers on the specs. The pressure ratio for example 2:1 from hot to cold side for the valve to be able to track properly. Putting pumps in the wrong location or in and out of series can effect the ability of the valve to track properly. Also multiple expansion tank connections have an effect on the pressure the valve sees as pumps start and stop. This is where balance valve come into play. Also the cold water spec and the min. temperature difference figure. To allow the valve to track accurately all those numbers need to be addresses.

I still feel a circ with either an on/off aquastat or variable speed function provide the best, lowest energy consumption and most accureate method of return protection, just depends on what the trade offs are, every job is different.

hr
 

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Taxidermist said "because I can have return water at 160+ ". Danfoss sells various temp settings for the plate inside the valve. One of these is 160F. This would be typical for a boiler. I have a 140F danfoss and it works fine. I have my ball valve set at about 2/3 but it is not that picky. Per the suggestion of Mark at AHONA, I drilled a 1/8" hole in the temperature plate to always allow a little flow. This helps with freeze protection with no significant impact on the valve performance. I have my Danfoss installed on the return just before the circulator which feeds into the boiler return(input).
 
Hunderliggur said:
Taxidermist said "because I can have return water at 160+ ". Danfoss sells various temp settings for the plate inside the valve. One of these is 160F. This would be typical for a boiler. I have a 140F danfoss and it works fine. I have my ball valve set at about 2/3 but it is not that picky. Per the suggestion of Mark at AHONA, I drilled a 1/8" hole in the temperature plate to always allow a little flow. This helps with freeze protection with no significant impact on the valve performance. I have my Danfoss installed on the return just before the circulator which feeds into the boiler return(input).



I also have a 140*(this is what you want for a return install) but what I am saying is my bypass loop never fully closes when proper temps are reached. It always flows some water and when my storage temps are up this makes my boiler start to idle. If I shut the ball valve it will come out of idle and run till fire burns out.


Rob
 
heaterman said:
mark123 said:
If it is a PITA to set a ball valve correctly would there be any advantage of using a balancing valve like Danfoss recommends. Locally a 1" balancing valve is $60.00 and a ball valve is $15.00 so the cost is not an issue. Below is a picture of the valve I am refering to.

A balancing valve is not capable of responding to variable temps in a system. It is not intended for temperature protection, only restricting flow to a given circuit or device.

Danfoss/ESBE makes a really slick mix valve/pump station that is used for boiler protection. Can't find the web page on it right now. Variable speed pump controls which look for a set point temp work well as a boiler bypass/protection too.
I see these on the UK websites & they sure are compact, Randy
 
in hot water said:
All non condensing boilers need return temperature protection. The boiler AND the flue piping needs to get above the condensing mode to prevent deterioation of the heat exchanger and flue piping. Even thick cast iron can be ruined in a years time if the return is not watched and compensated for.

The question is how long is too long. Many boilers start from a cold condition, maybe even room temperature. Most in the industry would like to see the boiler warmed within 10 minutes, same for the flue piping. No more than 15 minutes in my opinoin. Also avoid short cycles where the boiler runs down to below and "sweats" often.

The provide adequate protection you really need a device that can sense temperature and react accordingly. A bypass pipe and valve will not provide this. A bypass pump alone will not.

Three way thermostatic are one common choice. You need to look at the spec sheet to properly size one. Valves have a Cv rating, simply the amount of gpm you can flow through the valve with an industry recommended 1 psi pressure drop. Most 3 ways have a 3 Cv, high flow 5 Cv.

Now you can flow more than 5 gpm through a valve, but the pressure drop, or resistence to flow goes up with increased flow. excessive flow can cause wear, and noise problems. We put together an Excel sheet to show how this relationship works. In this example a 5 Cv valve flowing 20 gpm (moving 200,000 BTU/hr perhaps) has a pressure drop of 16 psi. So you can see how pump size jumps up considerable. really thermostatics were designed for DHW applications, not really continous flow at high gpm rates. better brands have larger volutes and cartridges to allow more flow. Large flow thermostatic valves get pretty $$.

Also watch the other numbers on the specs. The pressure ratio for example 2:1 from hot to cold side for the valve to be able to track properly. Putting pumps in the wrong location or in and out of series can effect the ability of the valve to track properly. Also multiple expansion tank connections have an effect on the pressure the valve sees as pumps start and stop. This is where balance valve come into play. Also the cold water spec and the min. temperature difference figure. To allow the valve to track accurately all those numbers need to be addresses.

I still feel a circ with either an on/off aquastat or variable speed function provide the best, lowest energy consumption and most accureate method of return protection, just depends on what the trade offs are, every job is different.

hr
IHW, I sure agree with you with the possible exception of Muncie Bob's Wood Gun that is stainless steel. THe SS plates are not going to be hurt by mild acid washing/low return temp & it would be difficult to get flue gas temps low enough to not burn off condensation in the piping. The only wild card as I see it is refractory life & low return temps might affect this, Randy
 
I bought the ESBE TV valve and I noticed that Danfoss also has an ESBE VTC valve. Both are listed as 3 way boiler protection thermostatic valves. Anyone know the difference in them.
 

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taxidermist said:
Hunderliggur said:
Taxidermist said "because I can have return water at 160+ ". Danfoss sells various temp settings for the plate inside the valve. One of these is 160F. This would be typical for a boiler. I have a 140F danfoss and it works fine. I have my ball valve set at about 2/3 but it is not that picky. Per the suggestion of Mark at AHONA, I drilled a 1/8" hole in the temperature plate to always allow a little flow. This helps with freeze protection with no significant impact on the valve performance. I have my Danfoss installed on the return just before the circulator which feeds into the boiler return(input).



I also have a 140*(this is what you want for a return install) but what I am saying is my bypass loop never fully closes when proper temps are reached. It always flows some water and when my storage temps are up this makes my boiler start to idle. If I shut the ball valve it will come out of idle and run till fire burns out.


Rob
I have nearly the exact situation with my termovar , It makes me wonder if these valves can actually handle 200,000 + BTU's , I am not sure there is enough flow capacity in these 1 1/4 valves . My return temps can really vary a lot depending on tank temp and zone temps , my radiant when it is running I can see temps as low as 80 coming back to the boiler . I was told at some point that you will find a sweet spot for setting the ball valve , I have yet to find that . I sure wish these things for there price were more automatic . Like stick it in there and your water return water temp is the setting for what the valve is . I really think there design could be vastly improved .
 
I really think there design could be vastly improved .

The vastly improved versions of the Termovar or Danfoss valves are called loading units. But the cost is also vastly increased because they integrate a bunch of other hardware and a circulator into them. They (and the similar Laddomat product) include a balancing valve that changes the proportion of supply water mixed in as the return water temp increases. When no more mixing is required to protect the boiler the supply water is closed and only return water is getting to the boiler.

They are really designed to charge a storage tank but they would probably work well without. If one of the pros knows different I would like to know why.

If you're building a system from scratch, the cost is not substantially higher than what you're going to pay anyway, IMO. But to replace an existing setup it would be a real kick in the wallet for the flow balancing feature alone.
 
It makes me wonder if these valves can actually handle 200,000 + BTU’s

Termovar makes them from 1/2" up to 2" pipe size. You need to use the size appropriate to your expected flow rate, same as the rest of the pipe in the system.

200K BTU does sound like a lot to shove through any 1 1/4" fitting. If the rest of the piping is also 1 1/4" you might be pumping pretty hard to keep up.
 
DaveBP said:
It makes me wonder if these valves can actually handle 200,000 + BTU’s

Termovar makes them from 1/2" up to 2" pipe size. You need to use the size appropriate to your expected flow rate, same as the rest of the pipe in the system.

200K BTU does sound like a lot to shove through any 1 1/4" fitting. If the rest of the piping is also 1 1/4" you might be pumping pretty hard to keep up.
I totally agree yet these are the parts that were sold to me . It also doesnt make any sense why the fittings on a solo 60 are only 1 1/4 ". But it is what it is .
My boiler always outruns the return flow and temp and idles.
 
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