How to Heat upstairs bedrooms

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loggie

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Feb 24, 2008
98
neast
Hello all I'm hoping some heating experts will chime in on this one.I have a 1250 gal switzer gasifier in my basement and have heated my big open log home and all DHW successfully for the first full winter and used about 12 cds .The first floor is heated with radiant tube stapled up with plates I am now finishing the second floor bedrooms and master bedroom.My question is should I do radiant on top of the subfloor with sleepers or use the European style flat plate low temp radiators. the rooms are large ,one is about 350 sq ft and the other 500 sq feet and both are 15 feet to the peak of the roof. I have spray foam insulation in the roof.The rooms even with no heat now never got any colder than about 55 last winter. Each room also has a separate air handler for a/c and I am also considering putting a hot water coil in these and heating that way as they have electric backups in them already. I just wonder what is the best way to go with the wood boiler. I installed most everything myself and the radiant is nice but a lot of work.I would appreciate any opinions
 
Going into the HVAC would give you the quickest warm up but you will be using electricity for blowers and some noise. I would try to go more passive. Radiators would be easy to install and give you quicker warm up than radiant. Have them on their own programmable thermostat to take the chill off in the AM when you get up and then shut down for the rest of the day ? Second floor bath too ? Put in one of the hydronic towel warmers with the radiator in there. You'll be looking good then.......
Rob
 
You can do either, when we have a timber frame to finish where the subfloor is also the ceiling for the story below then you want to lay tubes on top of subfloor, you could use the cleat method you mentioned, if you do I suggest you also place reflective material between the cleats to more evenly distribute heat, no point in making hot stripes in the floor. When we do one like this we use a EU product that holds the tubes in place as well as functioning as a subfloor for either laminate or hardwood flooring, goes down quick & easy, believe it is a Danish product, sorry brand name escapes me right now, if I remember it I will post. It is made in a honeycomb pattern so it is easy to weave the tubes back & forth approx 1" thick.
 
Thanks for your replies,yes I have seen the honeycomb units to put on top of the floor for the tube but they are very pricey and probably hard to work around the irregularities of a log home. I was able to do the staple up and plates under the master bath before we closed up. Yes the Heated towel warmer would get me some points with the wife. The radiant does not work so well if you turn it on and off and takes a while to warm up,would I use less BTUs with the radiators or the same?would the hot air use more?
 
I'd go for the coil in the existing air handler system. It sounds like the air handler(s) will not be running too much for the second floor. Once the rooms are up to temp they may only run a few times during the day. Seems like the simplest solution.
 
My opinion-

Start with a heat loss calc on each room. Now you can accurately size your heat emitters, be it radiant floor, panel rads or water to air HX. I would aim for 120* max water temp to take full advantage of your Switzer. It costs more but Low temp heating is where its at.

An above the subfloor install will be a lot more responsive than a staple up install. It will also use lower temp water. Especially with heavy extruded aluminum heat transfer plates vs lightweight stamped plates.

Panel rads sized for low temp means a lot of radiator/s! But they would install pretty easily/quickly and TRVs seem really great.

I dont know how much you can oversize a water to air HX but I'm sure some.

Also some low temp radiant wall could be an option as well.

Good luck,
Noah
 
Seems like I always hear the same argument when addressing radiant floor and that is "you'll get faster warm-up with air or baseboard". Why do we all assume that the space that is being heated got cold or colder than comfort temperature. My heated space doesn't vary 2 °F all winter. But let's assume the living space did cool down significantly one day when we went to the mall with the little woman and we couldn't get here to stop shopping. You would have been forceful enough to drag here home if you suspected it was getting down to 55 in the house.
I have staple-up in the main part of my house and I installed in-floor radiant in the little mud room/half bath I added last summer. My calculations said I needed 120 feet of 1/2 inch pex so I cut my purlins seven inches wide and laid in the pex. I also used a reflective material below the pex, I then glued down my cement board with thin set right over the tubes and then laid the porcelain tile. The set-up should require low temperature water but my staple-up in the main house requires higher temperature water because of the extra thick floors. When installing the new in-floor last summer, I had a sudden attack of cheapness and attached the new zone to the existing one, which means I have 140 °F water running through my in-floor zone. I don't think I could get a faster response with baseboard convectors.
I've been sensitive to the comfort temperature issue for several years now, since I was responsible for 53 women doing bench work in a manufacturing facility. I had a large window in my office and every one of the women had a sweater hanging on her chair. I observed over the years that the sweater went on and off several times a day whether it was heating season or cooling season. My conclusion was that the temperature didn't have to change hardly at all but when heat was coming into their bodies they were warm and when leaving their bodies they were cold.
So, If you get home from the mall and it's 55 in the house, as soon as the warm water starts flowing through your in-floor, you're going to feel as warm as if it were 70 and the temperature in the room was dropping. Of course the staple-up in the main part of the house would take much longer to rise to comfort levels. You have to experience the in-floor radiant to appreciate what I'm saying. It's heaven!
It does cycle often because it only takes minutes to satisfy the thermostat so the floor isn't always warm but it never gets as cold as it would get if there were no radiant tubing.
 
I know this was posted before somewhere but does anyone have a link to the heat loss calculations,I just clocked my oil burner to size the switzer.I guess I may just put the radiant in and get on with it.I am able to use water down to 120 deg now but I fear with the coils in the air handler I will need more like 160 deg for it to do much. Does anyone know of a chart for BTU of a coil at different water temps?
 
http://www.houseneeds.com/Shop/Heat...exchangers/airhandlers/heatingcoilerstech.asp
http://www.heatexchangersonline.com/airtowater.htm
There's a start, just figure you need to be bigger if you want to go all the way down to 120f. At least it would give you some dimensions and GPM's to size with what you have for existing ducts and pumps and see how compatible you are.
Just seems like you are system is low temp and low flow and with the coils your looking to do the opposite plus running the blower fans. How about some old school cast iron radiators and clean them up for a retro look. Can be had cheap on Craigslist.
Rob
 
When we were in europe last year I really liked the flat panel units they are using there. They look nice and heat with low temp so no burns for kids and they are quiet . I have an HX and while it heats fine I think the panels would be better plus won't dry out the air. I plan to install a panel / towel warmer in the master bath and also put panels in a couple bedrooms that are a little cool. I think over time I may switch it all over to panel units.
 
I like the panels also. We have radiant staple-up in our log home (standard truss floors - no T&G so same on both floors). Our master bath gets a littl cold so I may add a radiant panel in there next season, perhaps in the knee area under my wife's makeup counter.
 
Well everyone has some good ideas. Thanks for that coil chart Rob c I could not find one. Now I have everything I need except how to find the BTUs needed for the rooms. Anyone know of a place? Thanks alot guys for all your replies :)
 
In case the bedroom's still cold . . .

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WOW If I had that in the bedroom I wouldn't need any heat LOL
 
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