old wood burners i have a question

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

fbelec

Minister of Fire
Nov 23, 2005
3,660
Massachusetts
i know this is a very evil question to ask that might just bring back the fights between the Hatfield's and the McCoys.
Question 1: how does pine burn in a old smoke dragon?
Question 2: is there a ton of creosote?
Question 3: if burnt hot like 600 or 650 stove top will i have to scrap the chimney every week?
Question 4: how fast does it dry?

thanks
frank

there is a tons of pine out there that nobody wants. i should say around here.
 
We burned softwood exclusively in the old Resolute. Lots of it was pine, hemlock or fir. It was fine. Keep the fire burning at a reasonably hot temp and creosote should not be an issue. Remember that most of the western states have been burning pine all along in old and new stoves. It burns hot and fast. Creosote accumulation has more to do with flue temps. If the wood is dry, this shouldn't be an issue. Split pine dries reasonably quickly out here, but the weather is drier. If split, give it a year.
 
The key is drying the pine just like any other firewood. The mistake people make is burning it too soon just because it will burn. After a year or two of drying it burns a lot cleaner and a lot longer than if you just toss it in there after a few months. And most people only burn dead decaying pine. Drop those pines when they are healthy and dense and then give'em time to dry split and stacked just like other firewood.
 
thanks. there is all kinds of pine that people are giving away and calling campfire wood most that people are giving away is at least bucked if not split.
 
This shoulder season I started to add a piece of hard maple to a load of pine - it increased and lengthened the temperature of the burn in an EPA stove, and also provided more gasifying than pine alone. Whether this was helping avert creosote formation, I can't say, but I would see little if any gasifying with a pine only burn, and temperatures at only about 500-550 in a small stove (without much pine in it).
 
fbelec, this is an age old question and keeps popping up over and over. However, I find that most of these questions about pine come from the NE. I don't know why but it just seems to be that way. Mostly though it is an old wives tale about burning pine. Folks seem to fear chimney fires and it is simply not true. If there was a chimney fire when someone burned pine, then that fire would have happened with any type of wood. As stated above, dry it like you would any wood; at least a year before burning.

I've also heard some folks here in Michigan claim bad things for pine yet have no problem burning it in a fireplace! They seem to think yes for fireplace and no for stove. It is the same smoke.

We used to burn pine in the wood burning cook stove. Naturally we used small pieces and the reason for using pine is that you get a quick hot fire that doesn't last a long time. It was easier to adjust the heat output that way and not cook everyone out of the kitchen with heat that lasted too long.

My advice is get the pine and burn it. Get some good hardwood though for holding fires for a longer period of time at night.
 
Backwoods-

I think the pine myth is from the NE because we have a lot of hardwoods and it's not necessary to burn pine with its lower BTUs. Somewhere along the line pine got it's rep as a creosote producer because of its pitchiness and because of the abundant hardwoods it was not neccessary to challenge the conventioanl wisdom.

For 30 years I've been working around pine on my woodlot. After this forum, I'll dry and use a lot more of it in shoulder season.

I have observed that drying may be more critical with pine than otherwoods. i tried burning some bucked pine ( 6in dia) that had been sitting in the woods uncovered for at least 10 months and it didn't burn well at all.
 
I think basically creosote is smoke, and can build up regardless of whether you burn hardwood or pine. If you can burn without too much smoke, you are fine. If you burn smoky, you'll get creosote. Pine dries in a year, or even less time, and can definitely make nice low-smoke fires.
 
I also think a large part of the myth comes from people burning some good dry pine or lumber scraps that burn quick and hot. They aren't accustomed to it and it overfires and ignites the creosote already in the chimney that needs to be, and may never have been, cleaned.
Therefore, burning pine causes chimney fires. No doubt about it.
I'm not picky. I'll burn anything free. And dry.
 
Well definitely one would not want to pack their stoves with dry pine as they very well could get an overfire.

One also has to remember how some of the older folks used to do things. A lot of them knew nothing at all about seasoning and they had this dumb thing about burning a stove super hot to "clean out the chimney." Nuts! Completely nuts! That is just asking for problems. Burn good dry wood and you won't be needing any hot fire to "clean out the chimney." Man, that makes me cringe when I think about it.
 
I had a lot come down here during the icestorm of Dec 08, so last year I am guessing that I burned maybe 3/4's of a cord of it...burned about 2.5 cords total. When I get around to cleaning my chimney in the next month or so, I'll post back with the results.
I agree with most of the other posters, in that if you let it season like your other wood you should be fine.
Those folks out west gotta be doin something right.....and I am guessing (I have no proof) that there are probably more chimney fires east of the missisippi where hardwoods are abundant.
Once I get my new brush and rods, I'll post back with the damage....I am interested to see myself.
 
Backwoods Savage said:
One also has to remember how some of the older folks used to do things. A lot of them knew nothing at all about seasoning and they had this dumb thing about burning a stove super hot to "clean out the chimney." Nuts! Completely nuts! That is just asking for problems. Burn good dry wood and you won't be needing any hot fire to "clean out the chimney."

Well, I'm one of those "older folks" who runs the stove blasting hot every morning. 600-650ºF flue pipe temp. I mostly burn very dry wood, sometimes approaching kiln-dried. I have never had a chimney fire in 25 years, burning close to 150 full cord in total.

The fact is that extremely dry wood can actually produce more smoke when the intake air is shut way down, especially in a pre-EPA stove like mentioned in the OP. The drier the wood, the quicker it pyrolyzes, the denser the smoke, and the more air is needed to burn off that dense smoke. That can create an overfire situation (or trigger a chimney fire) when trying to burn smokeless by adding lots of air. That's why I cringe when I read over and over again for new burners with stove problems to try burning a load of kiln-dried wood. They'll even be advised to split the wood really small, exacerbating the smoke production problem if the air is too little, or risking overfire or worse if the air is too great. Water that is not in excess (i.e. not above 25%) can actually regulate a burn and slow down the pyrolysis. Studies have shown that wood that is 15-20% MC (seasoned outside for 2-3 years) is not only adequately dry, it is the ideal MC range. As well, large splits produce less smoke than small ones by a large factor. I go ballistic when I read about folks loading up the stove for the night and packing all the spaces between the bigger splits with very small splits - a sure way to choke down the air and make lots of smoke.

Another thing. Creosote is not "basically smoke". It is a complex mixture of oxygenated monoaromatic hydrocarbons that are formed along with dozens of other secondary fuel products during the course of any burn. Smoke is primarily wood tar and particulate solid matter like soot. Creosote condenses onto smoke particles and gets deposited on your chimney walls. The denser the smoke and the longer the residence time in the flue, the worse the problem gets. Very dry wood, split small and burned with too little air in a pre-EPA stove, or even in a non-cat EPA stove, will produce a cool fire with tons of smoke - a recipe for disaster IMHO. Cat stove owners, however, are in a league of their own.

All of this information is out there. I suggest that new burners worry less about what kind of wood they are burning and take the time to educate themselves about the controlled combustion of wood. My bible is this regard is "The Woodburner's Encyclopedia", by Jay Shelton (out of print, but available used through Amazon). It has hundreds of useful facts that are missing from the newer books I've looked at.
 
Battenkiller said:
Backwoods Savage said:
One also has to remember how some of the older folks used to do things. A lot of them knew nothing at all about seasoning and they had this dumb thing about burning a stove super hot to "clean out the chimney." Nuts! Completely nuts! That is just asking for problems. Burn good dry wood and you won't be needing any hot fire to "clean out the chimney."

Well, I'm one of those "older folks" who runs the stove blasting hot every morning. 600-650ºF flue pipe temp. I mostly burn very dry wood, sometimes approaching kiln-dried. I have never had a chimney fire in 25 years, burning close to 150 full cord in total.

The fact is that extremely dry wood can actually produce more smoke when the intake air is shut way down, especially in a pre-EPA stove like mentioned in the OP. The drier the wood, the quicker it pyrolyzes, the denser the smoke, and the more air is needed to burn off that dense smoke. That can create an overfire situation (or trigger a chimney fire) when trying to burn smokeless by adding lots of air. That's why I cringe when I read over and over again for new burners with stove problems to try burning a load of kiln-dried wood. They'll even be advised to split the wood really small, exacerbating the smoke production problem if the air is too little, or risking overfire or worse if the air is too great. Water that is not in excess (i.e. not above 25%) can actually regulate a burn and slow down the pyrolysis. Studies have shown that wood that is 15-20% MC (seasoned outside for 2-3 years) is not only adequately dry, it is the ideal MC range. As well, large splits produce less smoke than small ones by a large factor. I go ballistic when I read about folks loading up the stove for the night and packing all the spaces between the bigger splits with very small splits - a sure way to choke down the air and make lots of smoke.

Another thing. Creosote is not "basically smoke". It is a complex mixture of oxygenated monoaromatic hydrocarbons that are formed along with dozens of other secondary fuel products during the course of any burn. Smoke is primarily wood tar and particulate solid matter like soot. Creosote condenses onto smoke particles and gets deposited on your chimney walls. The denser the smoke and the longer the residence time in the flue, the worse the problem gets. Very dry wood, split small and burned with too little air in a pre-EPA stove, or even in a non-cat EPA stove, will produce a cool fire with tons of smoke - a recipe for disaster IMHO. Cat stove owners, however, are in a league of their own.

All of this information is out there. I suggest that new burners worry less about what kind of wood they are burning and take the time to educate themselves about the controlled combustion of wood. My bible is this regard is "The Woodburner's Encyclopedia", by Jay Shelton (out of print, but available used through Amazon). It has hundreds of useful facts that are missing from the newer books I've looked at.

this makes sense to me. very good explanation. this should go in the wiki.
i could never make sense out of people telling me that pine was bad. i just couldn't see it. wood is wood. temp and burn time i understand. i guess i go out and get so of this pine and rack it up. in my case it will be good lenght of burn and heat. with this stove we tend to get a little warm in here until the temp dips to 20's so this would work well. even with small fires i burn at 600 stove top temps and the house gets hot. let the house cool and by then i have to start a fresh fire. unless the temps are highs in the 20's and night time even cooler. i have to start a fresh fire at least once a day if not twice.
thanks guys for all the answers. i see west burning pine but not east. you guys brought out a good point. and there is plenty of pine out here.

thanks
frank
 
Never burned it growing up, except scraps of kindling. I don't burn it now, mostly because I don't need to. We've got enough hardwood around here that there's no shortage.
 
Battenkiller said:
That can create an overfire situation (or trigger a chimney fire) when trying to burn smokeless by adding lots of air.

Just a hunch, but I suspect that the myth is rooted in this. Folks either less than seasoned hardwood or improperly running the stove, resulting in a bunch of chimney gunk.

Then a load of quick burning pine gets things too hot and a chimney fire gets started. While it was weeks or months of improper stove use that created the conditions of a chimney fire, the pine plays the role of the fall guy since it was the last in a train of events.
 
Hi -

I do cut and burn some if I have to cut it to get more valuable wood. Fine enough wood. As a kid in Canada I noticed broad areas that burned Pine exclusively.

ATB,
Mike
 
Pine burns fine
 
We burn no pine before it's time.
 
well i took the advise of you pine burners. i scored 1.5 cord of cut one year ago pine. most of the bark fell off. and it's dam light in weight. i could pick up 12 to 14 inch round by 6 to 8 foot in length and put it in the truck without aggravating the back.
he has about 15 cord down and cut. got to go back there tomorrow and get meself some more.
 
Nice score- hasta manana!( Spanish for- I'll catch up with you tomorrow, or the day after.) Good job! John
 
Part of the problem that people have who don't burn pine on a regular basis is, they cut and split it to the same size as the hardwood they usually burn. Because pine has close to half the density, this will inevitably result in a faster, hotter burn in the stove. The solution is to split the pine into larger diameter pieces. Aim for the same weight as the hardwood pieces you normally use. And it's ok to use fewer pine pieces per load. Most hardwood fires require at least 3 pieces to burn well. For pine, two works fine most of the time.

Also, use rounds instead of splits wherever possible.

Larger pieces, fewer of them per load, and burning rounds will slow down the burn rate and bring some control back into the burn.
 
Yep, there is something about New England, and burning pine for sure. Everytime I pick up a fine pine round at the local dump, some oldtimer chimes in. Not just oldtimers either, literaly children have told me not to burn pine. Look both ways before crossing the street, watch out for the big bad wolf, and don't ever burn pine.
I beleive this harkens back to the day, as touched on previously, of cutting a tree down and burning it with no seasoning at all. With sap literaly pouring from the pine logs, I imagine creosote would be an issue.
I have heard everything from "it seasons in three months" to "like any firewood, proper seasoning requires two years" . I give it two years and burn it mostly in the shoulder seasons, but also during the day, during the cold season on days when I am hanging around and can feed the stove frequently.
 
hey
i got to bucking and splitting about a cord of it yesterday. i did what i thought was common sense from reading the posts on this site and split to large wedges thinking that it will take longer and not flash fire and not be able to put many in the stove. stuff was so easy splitting. most of the stuff was light as a feather. my 5 year old son was helping taking the splits and putting them into a pile. thats how light they were. the few that was not as light i split smaller. i say smaller meaning 4 to 5 inch splits. the rest was about 8 inches. the nice thing about have a thousand cube firebox.

hey dune
sorry i couldn't stop and say hi at goose' but i needed to get home before the wife cut of my _ _ _ _ s if you know what i mean.
 
Frank, no problem, I think I might have actualy met you in the bathroom when I first arrived.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.