A little bummed over the new stove.

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

oldspark

Guest
Bought a new PE Summit and like a lot of other posts I searched it just doesnt seem like it gets enough air to get going, first of all the wood is dry, doesn't matter the paper and kindling do not get going that well with the door closed, I took off the plug in back helped some but not like you would think, it has good draft I can open the door and get nothing in the room and the thing never back drafted on old stove either, I need a stove that is not a hasssle due to it being my only source of heat and I thought this was it. After reading so many posts with the same problems I felt worse, some of the people never come back and said if they got their to stove to work any better or not and a couple had wood that was not dry but a lot leave the topic hanging. Not sure what else to look for, I know this is a good stove but I need one that is easy to run for the wife and I do not want to spend time being a nurse maid to it either, it finally gets going after a while but struggles to get there, right now the stack is at 300 degreees and stove top (with trivet removed is about 150. In a little bit I am going to go cut a load of wood but my heart is not in it!
 
Hey oldspark. Im not sure if you've ever posted specs about your chimney setup, but it would probably help a lot to have them listed here, also what floor is the stove located on? From what I read, in general with new stoves, is that lack of air seems to be the number one cause of alarm when first trying to learn the new thing. My fathers new Firelight had similar issues at first, but he was in dire need of a chimney cleaning. Once he cleaned it the stove changed dramatically. I know this is an obvious, but his was clogged at the cap, the rest of the chimney was fine. Maybe you should check that. His wood also, although he'll say differently, was not dry. It WAS dry enough for the old stove, but not for what the new stove requires. I know this probably isnt the case with you, seeing as the newspaper wont even light, but I cant help but question the wood with you saying it gets going, but only after struggling to do so with such low temps....Can you tell a little bit about your wood supply too? What species of wood, how long its been cut split, etc.

Thanks
 
I'd like to see a poll done of how many EPA Phase2 stove owners can start a fire with their doors closed, and how many have to crack the door to get it going. When even Phase 2 stove manuals suggest that practice it seems logical to conclude the air intake design struggles because of all the channeling to secondary systems. The stoves can't breathe until a large enough fire is started to suck in the air more forcefully. If you have any bends on your flue system at all, it's going to make it more difficult to draft out. I found that out right quick. But I changed stoves, too, so I don't have the Phase 2 problem anymore, either. And after all the reading I have done here in the last 6 months, it does seem to be a common problem with the way these noncat EPA stoves breathe.
 
The wood is two years old and I have tried oak, ash, mulberry, silver maple, and locust all been spilt for the 2 years or so and some of it has been inside for several months, all of it act the same, been burning dry wood for a long time so that is not the probem. When I open the door when I am trying to get it going the fire dances with all the air but close the door and it struggles, I have been burning wood for about 33 years and the chimney is drawing well, the stove seems to work once you get past the start up stage. As I type this the stack is at 400 and the top at 320 or so, it does seem to hold a fire much longer that the old stove with the same amount of wood. I could heat the house up in a cold stove in 45 min or so, it takes me that long to get this one going, the chimney never gets plugged because of the way I burn so when we clean it every I get just a small amout out of it. Worse case, I put the old stove back in for next winter and sell the summit and sulk for a while.
 
REF1 said:
I'd like to see a poll done of how many EPA Phase2 stove owners can start a fire with their doors closed, and how many have to crack the door to get it going. When even Phase 2 stove manuals suggest that practice it seems logical to conclude the air intake design struggles because of all the channeling to secondary systems. The stoves can't breathe until a large enough fire is started to suck in the air more forcefully. If you have any bends on your flue system at all, it's going to make it more difficult to draft out. I found that out right quick. But I changed stoves, too, so I don't have the Phase 2 problem anymore, either. And after all the reading I have done here in the last 6 months, it does seem to be a common problem with the way these noncat EPA stoves breathe.
I am kicking my self in the ash for not checking this out more, I should have tried to get the easiest one to run at start up, the video from canada where they start a fire in the PE seems to take right of though.
 
About the wood thing the wood that I have bursts in to flame the second or 2 after you throw it on hot coals.
 
This does not sound promising oldspark. Here I am waiting on a Summit to come in from the dealer. Where is your stove located? Basement? Draft wide open?
 
^Try smaller splits oldspark...bigger splits only on an established coal bed.
 
SKIN052 said:
This does not sound promising oldspark. Here I am waiting on a Summit to come in from the dealer. Where is your stove located? Basement? Draft wide open?
You will have to see for your self as this stove works well for a lot of people but it is fussy on start up, I have what they call a berm house so the stove on the first floor which is basicly a walk in basement and the bed rooms are up stairs, about 18 ft of inside chimney, I have heated this house with a old style stove since 1980 and never had a problem so like I say I am bummed. It very well might work but the star up thing will be a pain as I used to light the old stove and for get about it.
 
savageactor7 said:
^Try smaller splits oldspark...bigger splits only on an established coal bed.
Forgot to mention I split them in half of what I normaly use and the paper and kindling dont even get going that well on start up but open up the door and it "dances" with the extra air.
 
I remember reading that you need to have a warm flue before the fire will get going, but a 45 minute wait is a bit much, Any reason to think it is not sucking in air for some reason? Think about an OAK kit maybe?
 
SKIN052 said:
I remember reading that you need to have a warm flue before the fire will get going, but a 45 minute wait is a bit much, Any reason to think it is not sucking in air for some reason? Think about an OAK kit maybe?
I have a door I can open about 15 feet from the front of the stove and tried opening it and to no avail, didnt change nothing.
 
oldspark said:
SKIN052 said:
I remember reading that you need to have a warm flue before the fire will get going, but a 45 minute wait is a bit much, Any reason to think it is not sucking in air for some reason? Think about an OAK kit maybe?
I have a door I can open about 15 feet from the front of the stove and tried opening it and to no avail, didnt change nothing.
Well my friend, I demand you figure this problem out!!! That way you can tell me what the issue is and I can avoid it, lol. Sorry to make fun of the situation, but I am out of ideas. Hopefully an easy fix. Once it is going it's decent though, right?
 
One thing I did notice in the video from Canada, she uses a lot more paper and kindling than I ever do to get her fire going might try that and the top down thing does not work for me at all, may be with the door open it might.
 
SKIN052 said:
oldspark said:
SKIN052 said:
I remember reading that you need to have a warm flue before the fire will get going, but a 45 minute wait is a bit much, Any reason to think it is not sucking in air for some reason? Think about an OAK kit maybe?
I have a door I can open about 15 feet from the front of the stove and tried opening it and to no avail, didnt change nothing.
Well my friend, I demand you figure this problem out!!! That way you can tell me what the issue is and I can avoid it, lol. Sorry to make fun of the situation, but I am out of ideas. Hopefully an easy fix. Once it is going it's decent though, right?
I dont care who you are thats some funny stuff! :lol:
 
When I start my stove I have to leave the door open until it really gets going. I can also tell the temperature outside by how quickly the fire takes off. If it's cold out, the chimney draws very well and if it's mild, it can take some time.

From what I have read, once people get their Summits going, they don't need to worry about lighting them again because they have such a long burn time. Have you got yours up and really cranking yet? If so, how's the heat output?
 
hilly said:
When I start my stove I have to leave the door open until it really gets going. I can also tell the temperature outside by how quickly the fire takes off. If it's cold out, the chimney draws very well and if it's mild, it can take some time.

From what I have read, once people get their Summits going, they don't need to worry about lighting them again because they have such a long burn time. Have you got yours up and really cranking yet? If so, how's the heat output?
Not really too big a fire, thinking about opening up the windows and letting it rip tomorrow morning.
 
old spark: this has gotta be something very simple... starting a fire does not require too much babysitting. I remember you saying on another thread that you got this stove shipped to you: check the baffle and rails in the top, make sure they are in the proper placements, make sure the air boos manifold (stainless plate w/ holes in it just in front of load door) is set in properly, and check out the flame deflector that is bolted on underneath the stove top to make sure it is not undone and hanging down into the exhaust path. Also, check the chimney/pipes, and make sure proof positive that there is nothing in there: I have too many people with issues like this that never check it out, insist its fine, and when I get there there is a squirrels nest or old fly and soot hanging down into the thimble. If you are having a hard time getting paper to go w/ the door closed, then somthing is hanging up either the exhaust flow or the intake airflow. Too often folks are willing to blame the steel box they just bought when it is something else altogether. Fire is pretty simple, heat fuel and air. Take out the baffles, manifold, rails, check the flame deflector, put it all back together. Something got rattled 'round in shipping, and that (or something in the chim) is most likely the issue.
 
also, what did you have for an old stove?
 
hilly said:
When I start my stove I have to leave the door open until it really gets going. I can also tell the temperature outside by how quickly the fire takes off. If it's cold out, the chimney draws very well and if it's mild, it can take some time.

From what I have read, once people get their Summits going, they don't need to worry about lighting them again because they have such a long burn time. Have you got yours up and really cranking yet? If so, how's the heat output?

Ah great point...Spark, what is your outside air temp at? I just lit a fire yesterday because of some wet raw temps were getting this weekend. Outside air yesterday was 40ish and my stove was much more difficult to light than in the cold winter months. I could leave my door closed in the winter and have stove top temps of 500 in 20 minutes from o cold start. Yesterday, I had to leave the door open for 15 min and it took 35-40 min to get good cruising temps.
 
Have faith, you have a great stove. But the draft on the flue is sounding suspect. Outside temperature in Iowa was the first thing I looked for. Looks like 50-60 for daytime temps, 32-40 for night, is that correct? If trying to start the fire in the daytime, the draft will be weaker with warm temps.

Before going further, we need a good description of the flue system on the stove. IIRC, it is about 18'. Is it 6" and straight up or are there elbows involved? Exterior or interior? What type of cap? Pictures are always welcome.

Summit has covered things that might have been disturbed in shipping that should be checked.

They key to easy starts is the north/south orientation of the splits which allows air to blow down the middle of them. You should be able to start a nice fire with the following steps:

1) lay a couple 3-4" splits, n/s about 2-3" apart.
2a) put a super cedar in between the splits about 2/3ds toward the front of the stove or
2b) ball up some single sheets of newpaper and put a few between the splits
3) criss-cross some dry kindling on top of the newspaper, not too much let there be some air spaces between the pieces
4) light the newspaper or super cedar and once the kindling has started close the door almost all the way, but leave it ajar about 1".
5) let fire start, maybe adding a couple more kindling sticks in criss-cross fashion as the fire starts to grow
6) splits should now have started burning on their sides, place another 3" split diagonally over the center fire, leave door slightly ajar
7) close door when the upper split is clearly burning

This whole process takes about 10 minutes in my stove, less if it is a restart using the previous day's hot coals, more if it is a cold start and the outside temps are mild. I suggested the supercedar (usually just a quarter works fine) because it makes starting a lot easier for a novice (your wife) to start and guarantees a good beginning burn. My wife starts the fire often without them, but likes them if the kindling is a little on the large or coarse side.

If you can post a picture or two of the installation and the upper inside of the stove, we can look for something amuk.
 
I agree about the draft. With outside temps in the 50-60º range there will be very little draft until that flue gets warm. Just because you don't get smoke in the room doesn't mean the draft is good enough to pull air through all the passages. The fact that the stove does burn good once the flue temps are in the proper range indicate to me that you made the right stove choice, just a little learning curve to it. With all your experience, you should have it figured out in no time.

Be Green has outlined what seems to me to be a perfect cold start method. Leaving enough air space in the wood itself is critical in stoves with convoluted air passages. You need all the help you can get in the beginning. His method should work OK to get those flue temps up fast even on a warm day. Otherwise, more sleuthing may be needed.

Good luck with it, relax, and go cut that load of wood. ;-)
 
The chimney is straight up 18 ft of 7 1/2 inch clay lined block with insulation around it and it is in side of house, when I built the first fire I open up the door and it blew the fire out there was so much draw, the stove can be filled with smoke and not a bit comes into the room when I open the door and it seems fine when I get it going, just getting there is a hassle. I bought the stove from a dealer but the first one he has sold, him and I took it out of the crate and installed it, I will look at the things summit mentioned when the stove cools down. You guys are a great help, just got back from cutting that load of wood.
 
BeGreen said:
Have faith, you have a great stove. But the draft on the flue is sounding suspect. Outside temperature in Iowa was the first thing I looked for. Looks like 50-60 for daytime temps, 32-40 for night, is that correct? If trying to start the fire in the daytime, the draft will be weaker with warm temps.

Before going further, we need a good description of the flue system on the stove. IIRC, it is about 18'. Is it 6" and straight up or are there elbows involved? Exterior or interior? What type of cap? Pictures are always welcome.

Summit has covered things that might have been disturbed in shipping that should be checked.

They key to easy starts is the north/south orientation of the splits which allows air to blow down the middle of them. You should be able to start a nice fire with the following steps:

1) lay a couple 3-4" splits, n/s about 2-3" apart.
2a) put a super cedar in between the splits about 2/3ds toward the front of the stove or
2b) ball up some single sheets of newpaper and put a few between the splits
3) criss-cross some dry kindling on top of the newspaper, not too much let there be some air spaces between the pieces
4) light the newspaper or super cedar and once the kindling has started close the door almost all the way, but leave it ajar about 1".
5) let fire start, maybe adding a couple more kindling sticks in criss-cross fashion as the fire starts to grow
6) splits should now have started burning on their sides, place another 3" split diagonally over the center fire, leave door slightly ajar
7) close door when the upper split is clearly burning

This whole process takes about 10 minutes in my stove, less if it is a restart using the previous day's hot coals, more if it is a cold start and the outside temps are mild. I suggested the supercedar (usually just a quarter works fine) because it makes starting a lot easier for a novice (your wife) to start and guarantees a good beginning burn. My wife starts the fire often without them, but likes them if the kindling is a little on the large or coarse side.

If you can post a picture or two of the installation and the upper inside of the stove, we can look for something amuk.
Yes that is the temps for here right now and I more or less started it the way you suggested except for the super cedar, (wife has been burning as long as me) so the fact it takes you a few minutes to get it going makes me think maybe it will just be that way, afther the fire had burt down the new small splits took right off.
 
It took a few decent hot fires in both our new stoves (Nap 1450 and Regency I3100) before they would start up "quicker". The Manual on the Nap talks about moisture in the firebrick needing to be dried out. We usually use the firestarter things rather than paper, and it usually takes 10-15 minutes before there a decent fire going (with the door closed).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.