New York State DEC Announces Proposed OWB Rule and Hearing Dates

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altheating

altheating

New Member
Dec 12, 2007
172
Central New York
www.altheating.com
I received this from NYS DEC yesterday. I placed a copy of the proposed regulations at http://www.altheating.com/Part247ProposedRule.pdf


"Dear Stakeholders:

Attached are copies of DEC's proposed regulation for outdoor wood boilers (Part 247) and the hearing notice that will appear in the State Register today. The DEC will hold 11 hearings as follows:

June 3: Watertown
June 7: Stony Brook
June 8: Albany
June 9: Pomona
June 10: Herkimer
June 14: Batavia
June 15: Cortland
June 16: Belmont
June 17: Dunkirk
June 21: Staatsburg
June 23: Saranac Lake

All hearings will begin at 6:00pm. Informal public information sessions will be held at each location beginning at 5:00 pm. The locations of the hearings are included in the hearing notice. The public comment period ends on July 2, 2010."
 
Looks good to me. There is some stupid SOB just installed one in his front yard in my town , 150 feet from the elementary school and it blows right into the school yard quite often. He is 15 feet from his property line bordering the road, 150 to the school building. Under this proposal he would have to stop using it.
 
EricV said:
Looks good to me. There is some stupid SOB just installed one in his front yard in my town , 150 feet from the elementary school and it blows right into the school yard quite often. He is 15 feet from his property line bordering the road, 150 to the school building. Under this proposal he would have to stop using it.
Click to expand...

There's some grandfathering:

Code: 
Section 247.10 Requirements for existing outdoor wood boilers.

(a) Effective October 1, 2011, all existing outdoor wood boilers shall be equipped with a
permanent stack extending a minimum of two feet above the peak of any roof structure located within 150 feet
of the outdoor wood boiler and no less than 18 feet above ground level.

(b) Phase out of existing outdoor wood boilers.

1. An existing outdoor wood boiler that commenced operation prior to September 1, 2005 must
be replaced with a new outdoor wood boiler meeting the requirements of this Part or must be
permanently removed from service no later than August 31, 2015.

2. An existing outdoor wood boiler that commenced operation between September 1, 2005 and
April 14, 2011 must be replaced with a new outdoor wood boiler meeting the requirements of this Part
or must be permanently removed from service within ten years of the commence operation date but not
later than August 31, 2020.

So he needs a new stack next fall, but the unit can be operated for ten years.

--ewd
 
This part gets him. his smoke routinely hits the school building. part 3.

(c) No person shall cause or allow emissions of air contaminants from an outdoor wood boiler to the
outdoor atmosphere of a quantity, characteristic or duration which is injurious to human, plant or animal life or
to property, or which unreasonably interferes with the comfortable enjoyment of life or property. This
prohibition applies, but is not limited to, the following conditions:
(1) activating smoke detectors in neighboring structures;
(2) impairing visibility on a public highway; or
(3) causing a visible plume migrating from an outdoor wood boiler and contacting a building on
an adjacent property.
 
EricV said:
This part gets him. his smoke routinely hits the school building. part 3.
...
(3) causing a visible plume migrating from an outdoor wood boiler and contacting a building on
an adjacent property.
Click to expand...

Looks good. In theory well-behaved operators can be left alone for a decade or so, and yet something can be done about the less-neighborly among us. There are many OWB operators in my area who have sheds full of a couple year's supply of split wood, and you never see any smoke from them.
 
DEC is still an agency of NYS, yes??

The State will be bankrupt and will be bouncing DEC officer's paychecks before this ban goes into effect.
 
People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO , Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong!!!!!!! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.
 
shagy said:
People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO , Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong!!!!!!! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.
Click to expand...

You are entirely correct!
 
Just another case of the GOV throwing out the kid with the bath water. They take a problem and make it worse and hurt the people that are trying to do things right. The people that are making the regs don't have a clue and they just listen to the lobbiests. You have to realize that there isn't any money for the gov in wood burning. They can tax elect, oil, gas and propane. Also the heating and plumbing people don't like wood as there isn't as much money in it for them. Now if they would put as much work in education, designing regs and making it easier to burn wood, chips etc they wouldn't have the smoke proplem and the air would be cleaner. You couldn't even have a Garn as it would be considered a comercial unit, and heaven forbid using a horizonal flue. Oh yea they are smart alright. And we want them to manage our health care.
leaddog
 
Oh by the way just remember that NY has been leading the charge on this and where NY goes most of the rest of the states will follow. I'm surprised that they don't have that ASME stamp rule also so we can pay more cause all these Europe style boilers are going to blow up. Michigan and Mass took care of that. We can't even put in our own water heater cause the common man is just to stupid so it has to be done by a licensed PRO.
leaddog
 
ISeeDeadBTUs said:
DEC is still an agency of NYS, yes??

The State will be bankrupt and will be bouncing DEC officer's paychecks before this ban goes into effect.
Click to expand...

Don't bet on it. We will be bankrupt before they will be. Big Brother always wins!
 
There's alot of things that irritate me about this proposal, but the one thing that stick out to me is how can DEC make people abandon their current piping, underdrain etc. just because they now decide to regulate WHERE you can put these boilers. It would seem to me that owners with older units should be able to replace them with new clean units and not have to re-do all the piping as it is a major PITA. There certainly needs to be a grandfather clause with the set-backs.
 
yanksforever said:
ISeeDeadBTUs said:
DEC is still an agency of NYS, yes??

The State will be bankrupt and will be bouncing DEC officer's paychecks before this ban goes into effect.
Click to expand...

Don't bet on it. We will be bankrupt before they will be. Big Brother always wins!
Click to expand...

Its nice to hear that not only NYers but people from other states think the NY DEC is nothing more than Nazi Stormtroopers
 
shagy said:
yanksforever said:
ISeeDeadBTUs said:
DEC is still an agency of NYS, yes??

The State will be bankrupt and will be bouncing DEC officer's paychecks before this ban goes into effect.
Click to expand...

Don't bet on it. We will be bankrupt before they will be. Big Brother always wins!
Click to expand...

Its nice to hear that not only NYers but people from other states think the NY DEC is nothing more than Nazi Stormtroopers
Click to expand...

Over 1/2 the states in the country are technically insolvent, and many others are on the verge of being so. Most are borrowing from the Feds (who are bankrupt and need to borrow $4 billion/DAY) to pay for unemployment benefits. Soon there will be no choice for states but to start laying off non-essentail workers and eliminating services in order to just stay afloat. they will also be doing everything they can to find ways of increasing your taxes and jacking up fees and increasing penalties for any violations they find in any segment of business. This can only end badly !

Pat
 
Dry steam said:
shagy said:
People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO , Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong!!!!!!! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.
Click to expand...

You are entirely correct!
Click to expand...

I dont believe your entirely correct. If a hydronic boiler is specified for indoor installation/installation in structures not normally occupied by humans ie: Tarm, EKO etc which are all labeled as indoor gasification boilers, i believe that they are good to go.
 
Add boiler patrol in addition to burn barrel patrol for our DEC officers. As mentioned, NY is on the cutting edge of new red tape, regulations, hidden taxes/fees........ Something needs to be done with the tire/trash burners......Common sense is not so common.....
 
shagy said:
People need to wake up on this one.It is not only outdoor models but any Hydronic wood burning boiler housed in a structure not inhabited by humans. If one puts in a EKO , Garn , Bioheat etc in a building like a garage or storage shed it will be considered a outdoor boiler.In addition to that none above have met phase 2 test. People better band together and quit this badgering over inside vs outside gassers and stand together.
The going to Phase 2 is not all bad. The cleaner furnaces are here. Its the part of a owner having to destroy a furnace after 10 yrs. That is wrong!!!!!!! How many cars and big trucks are on the road pre emission standard lets say 1990. No one told them to destroy there polluting smog producing animals.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of OWB's fail or cease to be used before 10 years anyhow. Around here I have to say the probably 40-50% of the OWB's are toast by year 8 of operation.

Speaking for myself, I don't have any major problem with inside vs outside other than the unavoidable heat loss associated with an outdoor unit. As I've stated previously, the issue for me is the poor representation of actual field performance now furnished by the current testing protocol and the fact that people are buying these Phase II OWB's thinking they are "clean".
 
Lawandorder you wrote, "I dont believe your entirely correct. If a hydronic boiler is specified for indoor installation/installation in structures not normally occupied by humans ie: Tarm, EKO etc which are all labeled as indoor gasification boilers, i believe that they are good to go."

The new proposed regs state
" ‘Outdoor wood boiler’. A fuel burning device that (a) is designed to burn wood or other
fuels; (b) is specified by the manufacturer for outdoor installation or installation in structures not
normally occupied by humans; and (c) is used to heat building space and/or water via the distribution,
typically through pipes, of a gas or liquid (e.g., water or water/antifreeze mixture) heated in the device."

I have run into this in the past with a few codes officers, basically if it is going in a building other than the house it is going to heat, Albany is calling it an Outdoor Boiler!
 
altheating said:
Lawandorder you wrote, "I dont believe your entirely correct. If a hydronic boiler is specified for indoor installation/installation in structures not normally occupied by humans ie: Tarm, EKO etc which are all labeled as indoor gasification boilers, i believe that they are good to go."

The new proposed regs state
" ‘Outdoor wood boiler’. A fuel burning device that (a) is designed to burn wood or other
fuels; (b) is specified by the manufacturer for outdoor installation or installation in structures not
normally occupied by humans; and (c) is used to heat building space and/or water via the distribution,
typically through pipes, of a gas or liquid (e.g., water or water/antifreeze mixture) heated in the device."

I have run into this in the past with a few codes officers, basically if it is going in a building other than the house it is going to heat, Albany is calling it an Outdoor Boiler!
Click to expand...

That is the general consensus throughout the industry. If it's UL and/or CSA labeled as an indoor appliance it doesn't fall under that part of the regulation.

On another note, I think that they are really struggling to come up with a test for the Garn. Having the storage integral to the unit throws the current test all out of whack.
 
heaterman said:
altheating said:
On another note, I think that they are really struggling to come up with a test for the Garn. Having the storage integral to the unit throws the current test all out of whack.
Click to expand...

Well if they pass it the way it states you don't have to worry about the garn. It's over 250000btu's so it would be commercial and you couldn't put it in anyway.
leaddog
Click to expand...
 
leaddog said:
heaterman said:
altheating said:
On another note, I think that they are really struggling to come up with a test for the Garn. Having the storage integral to the unit throws the current test all out of whack.
Click to expand...

Well if they pass it the way it states you don't have to worry about the garn. It's over 250000btu's so it would be commercial and you couldn't put it in anyway.
leaddog
Click to expand...

The firing rate is only one of the things that has the suit and tie crowd somewhat stymied with the Garn. The burn rate is far past normal residential requirements so it can't be classified that way even though it is intended for residential use in the two smaller sizes.

*The second thing is that there is no firing control other than the wind up timer. No aquastat, no high limit and neither is there any need for circulation while firing. (A combustion fan shut down based on flue gas temp is in the works and being tested as we speak)

*Number three is the fact that it is UL and CSA listed for indoor use ONLY. It cannot be installed outside in the weather according to the listing certification.

*Next on the list of head scratchers is the fact that it is certified for use with a horizontal flue discharge. That really muddies up the water for those promoting tall stacks for dilution of the exhaust gases.

*It is also the only unit made that they have run into, other than the Switzer, that has integral storage of a capacity large enough to basically divorce the output from the input for at least a brief period of time.

Makes me chuckle a little to think the thing was designed in the 70's and it's still ahead of the curve.
Click to expand...
 
If these regulations go through my boiler will have to have a minimum vent height of 18' and be at least 2' above the closest roof. I am installing a boiler in a barn with a low roof near my house. The peak of my house roof is well over 30ft. I will have to have 20ft of pipe protruding through the barn roof to meet the regulation. It will propably need to be supported like a radio antennae. I will wait to see if the regulations come true before I do that.

Anyone know what the NYS tourism slogan is? I LOVE NY! Maybe if I say it enough I will believe it.
 
Heat4Steve and anyone else faced with this. ............

Go to the link below and print it off. If you can, reproduce the pictures in photo quality then take it to your local board or code official and politely request that they read through it. Let them know they are mandating something that is outside the manufacturers certification (in almost every case), that they are forcing installation of something that is unsafe in nearly any circumstance and that the regulation causes serious liability issues for both you and them because they have gone outside manufacturers specifications. (Look up the stack spec's in the manual for whatever brand you have to prove this) If they are not in the manual call the manufacturer of your product and ask them for their stack spec's and/or height limits in writing.

I know that the state of Ohio changed their mind on proposed stack heights when they were presented with this document.

Everyone involved in the wood burning industry from manufacturer to the end user has to hang together on this or we will all hang separately (to quote a famous revolutionary era patriot)

http://garn.com/content/stacks.aspx
 
heatermans,

Thanks for the link. I would expect that my local official building inspector would accept this. Would you expect a similar issue if the the stack was run up the inside of a brick chimney? That would be his next question. His preference is for me to install a unit inside my home not outside.
 
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