Value of 400 tree spruce grove near Chateaugay, NY UPDATE

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leftyscott

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Apr 6, 2009
201
arkansas
My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY. Some logger offered him $20/tree. Is this a ripoff? Anybody know what"s a fair price?


Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law. Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law. No monies exchanged hands. Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?

Father-in-law lives in Arkansas so there was no type of supervision going on.
 
I really dont see how the logging companys can pay much with the ammount of work it takes to get it to the mill.
 
I don't think that would be a rip-off. Just be prepared to see a mess when they are finished.
 
Have another logger bid the project.

I spent yesterday surveying a mountain in upstate NY that had been logged a few times. Going off the road the loggers put in was a royal PITA! Add in the easy blowdown of the trees left and black flies and it was good ole time!

Matt
 
Seems like a real good price to me. That's 8k. You can get 400 trees in 2ac.
 
http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/spr2009summer.pdf
Looks like the average price is around $80/MBF according to these reports. That price I'm guessing is to a Canadian mill.

Take the money and run. I've never paid more than $3/ton on a pulp bid for spruce. Pretty much a weed tree here. Hopefully that land will transition to more valueable hardwoods once the spruce is gone.
 
leftyscott said:
My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY. Some logger offered him $20/tree. Is this a ripoff? Anybody know what"s a fair price?

I'm so stupid.......
Father-in-law is 84 years old and kept saying $800 for 400 trees is way low. His math was wrong and I didn't catch it.
$20x400= $8000. That seems like a very fair price considering the old man only paid $12K for the property 25 years ago. Already made back the $12K when the house on the property burned down several years ago.
 
You might say property prices have gone up a bit in 25 years. Even more, I missed out on a 40 for $1,800 about 50 years ago. Sure wish I'd bought it but learned of it too late and someone had already grabbed it. It is work considerably more now.
 
after seeing what they did on our Timber I'll never have any loggers set foot there again unless I want the whole dang thing cleared off. Actually, probably not even then.
 
Please listen to Matt's advice. Get another bid or two or involve a forester. The DEC has names to call. Get references from past customers. And have the trees marked beforehand and have a written contract for the job. A lot of things can go wrong.

For example, the logger says $8,000 for only the fifty year old spruce. If true, those are big multi-sawlog trees at even $100 per thousand. Somewhere in the 20"-24" diameter class at breast height. They'll likely need to be bigger than that so he can pay for the expenses associated with your specific job. Not to say that the man is dishonest, but what if his guys also cut the hardwood veneer logs in the spruce stand by accident?

If the stand is worth selling, get more bids and a contract and then you will know the market value of the stand and you'll know what will be left in the stand. Sometimes $8,000 turns into $40,000. Just my opinion.
 
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I'd think twice about the damage that will occur when the trees are logged. $8,000 sounds great, but you may end up with trashed woods, piles of slash, ruts, mud, ruined roads, damage to other trees, etc. I'd make sure how much the deal is for, and I'd look for a logger who has some experience NOT destroying the woods while removing some lumber.
 
I was cutting vines in a stand of pines Saturday with my son and told him I wish I could find someone to pay me $20 apiece for them.
Of course, mine are only 30 years old.
 
Get a second or third quote from another logger . . . and check references and with any state regulatory agencies (around here the Forest Rangers are responsible for going after "bad" loggers -- i.e. loggers who cut more than they are supposed to, cut on an abutter's property, do not pay the landowner the full amount owed to them, etc.)
 
If you don't know hire a forrester. their usual fee is 10% for that they will mark and measure the trees to be cut, send out for bids, deliver to you the signed contract and money up front, and check up and make sure the terms have been delt with. Usual contract spells out trees to cut, when cut ,when removed, condition the woods is left in, payment and terms of any damage and a host of other things most people don't have nay idea of.
Plus you will probably make money over his fee because he will know what co.s need what logs and will make sure they get to bid. Someone that makes skids won't pay more for veneer. He will also know what the market looks like and may advice to wait or hurry up.
Best money you will ever spend.
leaddog
 
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I second what leaddog said about hiring a forester. And contract and the money upfront mean that you hold the cards. Otherwise, once the trees are cut and gone, you hold none.
Here is a link to the NY DEC stumpage reports for some price ranges:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/5259.html
 
wolfram said:
I agree. Something about 400, 50-year-old spruce and $8,000 does not smell right.


$8,000 / $80MBF = 100MBF

100MBF / 400 trees = 250BF per tree. Sounds about right for 50 year old spruce.

I just love keyboard foresters! ;-P
 
leftyscott said:
My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY. Some logger offered him $20/tree. Is this a ripoff? Anybody know what"s a fair price?




Where in Upstate? I may want to talk to this logger.
 
JoeD, 250 board feet, on the scale, per tree in a 50 year old spruce stand of 400 trees? I am certainly not a forester, but that must be a fantastic site.

If you are correct in your estimate of volume, International or Doyle rule would have them at 18" dbh absolute minimum (20"-24" diameter more likely according to the person doing the estimating).

US Forest Service says: Under favorable conditions, red (eastern) spruce may reach an average d.b.h. of 4" and height of 23 ft in 20 years, and be over 9" d.b.h. and 62 ft tall in 60 years. Here is the link:

Eastern Spruce from the US Forest Service

US Forest Service says approximately 9" diameter at breast height in 60 years under favorable conditions. I am not a forester, but I think that tree would only hold pulpwood or chips. No real sawlogs and very few board feet per tree. Value would be far less than $80/1000. Kind of like your post up above at a few dollars per ton.

I am curious. Be great if the OP had a picture of the stand or tell us something about the average tree.....Are they 9" diameter or 20" diameter?
 
Another update...........

Just found out that 100 trees have been harvested and dragged to the side of the road. Father in law lives here in Arkansas also so details are sketchy. He plans on going up there later this spring and will try selling the 100 trees for someone who would want to biuld a log cabin. He has no prospects at this time. He's not the most practical person in the world.

The property is near Chateugay NY. I'll try to get more details about location (will try to google map). Will also find out who did the cutting.

Be great if someone on the board, lives close-by and can get a visual on the situation.
 
I think there are a few folks on the board from that area....maybe amend the title of the thread to include the town name in NY, as some members might be more inclined to read the thread if its somewhat local.
Good luck
 
leftyscott said:
Another update...........


Be great if someone on the board, lives close-by and can get a visual on the situation.





I looked it up and I'm almost three hours away.
 
Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law. Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law. No monies exchanged hands. Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?

Father-in-law lives in Arkansas so there was no type of supervision going on
 
leftyscott said:
Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law. Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law. No monies exchanged hands. Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?

Father-in-law lives in Arkansas so there was no type of supervision going on




It's already been done.
If the replys are true to form, some you'll like and some you won't.
If that was the deal then that was the deal.
I'd leave it alone.
 
I've been part of deals like this with relatives who own land. We split 50/50 with a band-mill operator after helping substancially with the harvesting and stacking.
 
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