Time has nearly come to rebuild/replace

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ISeeDeadBTUs

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Those who ran the Adobe rusted out already, but I don't hear so much about Setons rusting out. Last autumn, when I pulled the top and welded the manifold nipple, I noted the rust holes in the GreenWood's top. Well, now the left side has a rust blister all the way through.

My Ultimate choices at this point would be

1)Viessmann Vitolig, or
2)Garn in a new Greenhouse

the distance from the Garn to the residence would not be so efficient. And of course, I'm not prepared to plunk down casholla for either at the moment. So . . .

shooting for shut-down on June 1. Seems if the original panels made +3 years, replacements should also. I want to remanufacture the GW with all SS panels, but we'll have to see about cost.

But I'm still curious why I don't hear about the Setons rusting out? And does anyone here run the 'new' seton that has the SS skins? And wasn't there someone running a Greefire that had SS skins?

Jimbo
 
Have a GW100 here I was considering donating to a local gun range or a coral reef project. After 2 seasons the skins rusted out “hey that’s only $4000 a heating season what a deal”. I was in the process of fighting with GW when they skipped town.

The unit seemed to only drip at the top of a burn cycle so I thought it was a small crack in the exchanger after taking a side skin off I found moisture was forming between the insulation and the skin itself.

Thanks to this site and the people on it I found out the design does seem to work. I didn't know about the Seton boiler. In talking to Fred Seton about condensation he said the draft must be at least 0.07 or a minim flue temp of 350 to 400 and the condensation will stop. Ok but the thing cycles so draft and temps will vary up and down? Fred did say he sells parts for the GW and that he uses galvanized skins on his units and SS draft tubes. My concern is galvanized just takes longer to rust out and sealing the unit up tight may just trap the moisture inside.

Seems this thing is prone to condensation forming at points in the burn cycle, mine first rusted all the way thru at a spot in the side skin I noticed was really hot like the insulation was missing and all along the bottom.

Been staring at and thinking about what to do with this thing since I shut it down. To date I'm $8000 in so do I spend more experimenting or go with one of my first thoughts.

Seems to me the burn chamber needs to be sealed off from the sides and top of the unit along with adding an access panel like the one I saw here or in the back. If I use plate steel above the heat exchanger it will need replaced at some point. Hell I’ve even considered bricking the thing in place. I too am not sure what to do with this thing. Short of the self destructive dripping the unit does the job in a uncomplicated manner.

Good to meet everyone! I too welcome suggestions.

Wayne
 
Steel really can't rust in the absence of oxygen or other corrosive (acid) chemicals, can it? If rust out is a problem, doesn't that just set the stage for a more effective water treatment regimen?
 
jebatty said:
If rust out is a problem, doesn't that just set the stage for a more effective water treatment regimen?

Nope. The heat transfer medium (water) does not contact the skins. And I'v yet to hear anyone say the manifold/tubes started leaking, other than the fact that the iron nipple corrodes incredibly where it contacts the skins.

The water that rusts the skins is apparently coming from the fuel. I suspect (not a chemist here) that the smoke is highly corrosive, the insulation holds the water against the skin, and the skins are made out of old Yugos :grrr:

Combine that all and you MAY get three years outa yer skins.
 
Pittsburgh said:
Have a GW here I was considering donating to a local gun range or a coral reef project. After 2 seasons the skins rusted out “hey that’s only $4000 a heating season what a deal”. I was in the process of fighting with GW when they skipped town.

The unit seemed to only drip at the top of a burn cycle so I thought it was a small crack in the exchanger after taking a side skin off I found moisture was forming between the insulation and the skin itself.

Thanks to this site and the people on it I found out the design does seem to work. I didn't know about the Seton boiler. In talking to Fred Seton about condensation he said the draft must be at least 0.07 or a minim flue temp of 350 to 400 and the condensation will stop. Ok but the thing cycles so draft and temps will vary up and down? Fred did say he sells parts for the GW and that he uses galvanized skins on his units and SS draft tubes. My concern is galvanized just takes longer to rust out and sealing the unit up tight may just trap the moisture inside.

Seems this thing is prone to condensation forming at points in the burn cycle, mine first rusted all the way thru at a spot in the side skin I noticed was really hot like the insulation was missing and all along the bottom.

Been staring at and thinking about what to do with this thing since I shut it down. To date I'm $8000 in so do I spend more experimenting or go with one of my first thoughts.

Seems to me the burn chamber needs to be sealed off from the sides and top of the unit along with adding an access panel like the one I saw here or in the back. If I use plate steel above the heat exchanger it will need replaced at some point. Hell I’ve even considered bricking the thing in place. I too am not sure what to do with this thing. Short of the self destructive dripping the unit does the job in a uncomplicated manner.

Good to meet everyone! I too welcome suggestions.

Wayne

Wayne, If you decide to give it another shot, you might want to consider insulating the new skins. I've had decent luck with that. I had a lot of problems the first year with dripping. I used to notice the dripping on the floor from inside the skins about an hour or two after startup from cold. My take on this is that during startup, moisture in the combustion gases condenses on the cool skin surface. The skins are cooled by the ambient air so they take a long time to warm up, acting as a condenser until the unit is nice and hot. Once the skins are hot enough, the water is evaporated and the dripping stops. The other time I noticed a problem was when the boiler went into an extended idle with a load of wood. The skins would cool back down, and cause a good amount of dripping. This would be the stinky black stuff. (This black creosote/water condensate mix is acidic and attacks the steel). Anyway, I insulated the skins with a 3/4" blanket of foil backed fiberglass. This warmed the skins up faster so there's no water on startup and it holds the heat in the skins longer if it goes into idle. After insulating, I noticed that the the condensate formed during idle ended up condensing in the flue pipe in the rear, rather than in the skins (a little better, anyway?). I eventually fixed the condensate problem completely by eliminating idling (storage).
Hope this helps.
 
Mole,
To be clear, you insulated the outside of the skins correct?
 
sdrobertson said:
Mole,
To be clear, you insulated the outside of the skins correct?

Yeah, the outside.
 
I insulated the skins with a 3/4” blanket of foil backed fiberglass. This warmed the skins up faster so there’s no water on startup and it holds the heat in the skins longer if it goes into idle. After insulating, I noticed that the the condensate formed during idle ended up condensing in the flue pipe in the rear, rather than in the skins (a little better, anyway?). I eventually fixed the condensate problem completely by eliminating idling (storage).
Hope this helps.

Thanks Mole! Would that foil back inso have been HVAC duct board? That's one to keep in mind. I do have a 120 gal buffer tank as the boiler loop the other loops feed out of the buffer tank. The buffer tank does keep the return water above 160. One of the reasons the GW was chosen is I didn't want to take up a bunch of room with a large storage tank like the other units required. Thanks,
Wayne
 
Pittsburgh said:
Thanks Mole! Would that foil back inso have been HVAC duct board?

It was a blanket type roll, about 24" wide. Got it from Lowes or HD maybe.
 
I had water dripping the 1st year also. Last year I added 2' to my chimney and removed the barometric damper. I have at least 8' of chimney above the garage roof, plenty of draft now. No dripping this past year. The only other thing I did was change the aquastat, the new one had a preset differential of only 5*. I think this worked in my favor as it reduced idle time. I ran 175* to 180* all the time, unless I ran out of fuel (wood).
Doug
 
No more dripping E-Ha! I've got quite a mess under where this thing sits.

Draft seems to be the key with loving or hateing these things. Flue size was another factor in choosing the GW I already had a 6" clay thimble and 8"X 8" clays in the masonary chimney ready for a free standing wood stove in my garage then I got the bright idea of installing a boiler for floor heat, (didn't have the concrete poured yet) DHW, an exchanger in the LP forced air system.

The 6" flue size limited my choices, I was none too happy to see a 8" flue when they delivered the GW. Assuming they knew what they were doing (snd mistake) The first season I plumed the unit in with 6" fired it up checked the draft it was at 0.05 and at the bottom of their allowable range from the GW docs (0.05 to 0.07) OK down to Get Wood now! What a mess that made the thing dripped constantly, tar and gue dripped from above the inlet damper and would have sealed it eather open or closed at some point in time, the heat exchanger was one with the insulation surrounding it the flue and chimney also dripped constantly. I'm not a Happy Camper at this point so I start with GW's Tec (third mistake) they first had no clue then they were gone.

Since the 6" rusted out after the first season and knowing the thing was choking I replaced it this past season with 8" stainless, busted out the 6" clay ovaled the 8"X 8" clay with a mini grinder replaced the 90 deg elbows with 45's tried to clean the exchanger (what you can reach of it) and still leave the insulation. Ok that was fun!

Second season, fired it up hey no dripping! That was untill it got hot! Great!!!! That's what made me think there was a small crack somewhere in the exchanger that only leaked when the metal expanded. After I poked my finger thru the side skin I patched it up with metal tape and decided to dig in when I shut it down for the season and here I am.

I will say I since I opened up the exaust (as it should have been) the total ash after burning 8 cords was no more than 4 5 gallon buckets and like powder so I am closer to getting it right. I stumbled here looking for other GW owners on the net so I let this run on a bit hoping that may help others in the same boat.

Take care,
 
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