Online Or Local ?

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daryl

Feeling the Heat
Jul 19, 2009
348
Western WI
I might be a little bias on this subject.. The customer wants some Dura-Vent double wall stove pipe. First he tells me he needs 6" chimney. We talk about his project and find out that he wants to hook his stove to his existing chimney. OK we are moving forward. After asking what type of chimney he has we determine it is a class A chimney with a support box and that it is 6".
Ask him what brand of class A chimney is in his home. He does not have a clue what brand it might be but he got it installed by the local handyman. Does he know where it was purchased? Yes the local big box store. Since we live in the area I know what brand of chimney they carry. It is brand X I explain to him that Dura Vent DVL pipe needs to use their connector at the support box. Now what?
I explain that there are other Double wall stove pipes on the market that do not require a connector like Dura Vent and can be hooked up to his support box. We are moving forward again. Then he tells me that he well need 2 - 90 degree elbows also. I ask him why he would use two 90 degree elbows to hook up to a ceiling support box. He says because it is not a straight shoot from the stove. OK I tell him about using 45 degree elbows instead. Thinks that sounds like a good idea. We figure what is needed. the total comes to $389.00.
He tells me that sounds like a lot of money for some pipe. So I play along and tell him I will take 10% off. Still thinks it is to much. He tells me he has to think about it and goes home.
Calls me two weeks later and asks me why the stove pipe he bought will not hook up to his stove. We talk for awhile and we find out that he does not have a stove adpt. and the pipe well not fit over the stove collar. Next he tells me that the one foot section and the 45 degree elbows do not offset enough to reach his support box. I tell him he needs A slip pc. I should remind you this was all in my bid for the pipe.Tell him what he needs. He orders it online.
So after 3 weeks he gets it all installed after another phone call to us.
So what did he save maybe 40 bucks in the end and alot of frustration.
Even if I would of had to order that pipe he would of had it in three to four days. It took him a month by time it was all said and done with returns and reordering. He could of been up and running in 4 days with my bid. All to save $40.00
 
Some people are programmed to spend extra time and effort to try to save a few bucks. Normally it's folks who have a lot of spare time or don't value their spare time. For me, working 60 hours a week, to spend 5 hours running around to save $20 bucks means I just earned $4.00 per hour. No thanks, I'll spend that 5 hours with my family. Now, if I can spend a few hours and save $100, maybe.. it all depends on where your at. Some folks do it almost like a hobby. They will sometimes assume, even if your selling something for a dollar, that your making too much money and they can buy it online for 75 cents. I got that all the time on Long Island. Not so much here in central NY. The retailer does all the work, layout, advising and the customer slinks on home to google and saves 5-10%. It's a mindset and you can be peeved, but dont take it personally. It's not just hearth shops. Its clothes, carpet, building materials, car parts..just about everything. Just start focusing on service because after the internet whores drive the brick and mortar guys out of the retail business, we'll still be able to fix stoves and chimneys. Then mr google/home depot will wonder why our labor rates are so high.

Listen, I know people who will drive 10 miles to save 3 cents per gallon on gas, just because thats how they are programmed. It will only get worse as the economy sputters..and it will continue to sputter. Fundamental change or not.
 
I just purchased a new stove and all the pipe that goes with a total new setup. The first dealer I went to gave me a price on the stove and pipe and sent it to me in an email. Wanting to be an informed consumer, I work hard for the few pennies I earn just like the stove dealer does, and make sure that he was not taking advantage of a newbie so I got online and priced the chimney parts in his estimate. I found that he was charging me full MSRP for all the pipe and I could buy it online for 30% less!! including the shipping. So I called the dealer to see if he would give a discount on the pipe since I was also purchasing the stove from him. He plainly stated that he did not discount pipe, period. So I figured this guy must light his fires with $100 bills and does not need any new customers or my $3,500. Found a new dealer, he did not have my stove in stock or my pipe but gladly ordered it for me, threw in a little discount, still higher than online but I made a new friend in my dealer and I know he will be there when my stove needs service or parts. I did all the install myself and he was fine with that and gave lots of advice until he was sure that I had all my questions answered. He even stopped by my work twice to check up on me. Times are hard right now and people will shop around instead of blindly paying MSRP. I am sure that the stove dealers shop their suppliers to see who can give them the best deal, same goes for the consumer.
 
Sixman,
That is a great story that tells a lot. I know for a fact the dealer you ended up buying the stove from, even with a small discount, still made "some" money. He also got a friend and a customer for life. What he did was give you 5 star service. I applaud his effort and Im glad he was rewarded with the sale. One side note, as a dealer who buys a ton of stuff from manufacturers and distributors we dont always look for the cheapest either. Even on the exact same item, sometimes I'll purchase from a source I know is a little more money if I know I can save overhead due to a smooth transaction. Also, for items we need to buy outside of our industry, we always try to shop local and support small business PROVIDING that they give the kind of service we expect. Just being "the local guy" doesnt cut it. Thanks for the story.
 
Agreed that if you have a good dealer located reasonably nearby, that offers a fair value, then that is the way to go. Personally, when I find a knowledgeable person that is willing to assist me, I am glad to give them the business, even if it costs a bit more, because the dealer is offering additional value and is part of the community.

Interestingly, I tried to buy locally when I piped the greenhouse. But the local dealer was poorly stocked, opinionated, list price expensive and unreliable. So that system was bought online where I got great service from a well informed dealer and free shipping. Some online houses are actually small stores that have good people running them.
 
BeGreen said:
Agreed that if you have a good dealer located reasonably nearby, that offers a fair value, then that is the way to go. Personally, when I find a knowledgeable person that is willing to assist me, I am glad to give them the business, even if it costs a bit more, because the dealer is offering additional value and is part of the community.

Interestingly, I tried to buy locally when I piped the greenhouse. But the local dealer was poorly stocked, opinionated, list price expensive and unreliable. So that system was bought online where I got great service from a well informed dealer and free shipping. Some online houses are actually small stores that have good people running them.

True, I am a one man operation that does small volume (Less than 1 million a year) and I sell stuff online that I have overstocked. Folks sometimes are shocked when they call or email me about a product they see on ebay and actually get a prompt accurate response. Goes to show that just because it's on the intraweb it doesnt make it evil. Or does it?
 
I just bought a very expensive sewing machine (4K). I had a very clear picture of what I wanted the machine to do and I did my research on-line. It took a long time, too! I compared comparable machines from a variety of name manufacturers and "shopped" around for several months, getting prices from large dealers and "doing the numbers". (I spent nearly as much on the new machine as I spend on a used car!)

I ended up purchasing the machine from the local mechanic I've used for years now and from whom I've purchased equipment in the past. He is an authorized dealer for the brand of machine I purchased and he regularly attends workshops and training programs offered by Juki. He is dialed right in to keeping up with the new electronic machinery. His price was few hundred dollars more than the best on-line price I found. I went with him because, when you get right down to it, I feel it would be unfair and borderline sleazy to purchase a brand new, top of the line machine from someone else and then expect him to service it if something goes wrong.

He lives and works in my state. He's someone I've known for many years and he's helped me out many times over the years when I've been in a jam, facing a deadline and in need of mechanical service. Two hundred bucks isn't "chump change", but in the big, long-term picture it really is! I absolutely love my new machine and he knows that anyone interested in something similar is more than welcome in my shop to look/see/try before they buy. I view the relationship I have with my sewing machine mechanic as one of the most important professional relationships I have.

I am perfectly OK allowing him his mark up on the product. He's in business to make money (just like me!) and good, respectful professional relationships are based on that understanding. He's terrific!
 
Two hundred on a four thousand dollar purchase from a local guy is money well spent. I always buy locally and don't worry about spending more. I even buy my cars from the small guy down the road rather that the mega-mall, huge guy 20 miles away.
 
I buy everything but stoves from the local shop. Only reason I didn't buy the 30 or the pellet stove from them even though they are still listed as a dealer is that they are pissed at England's Stove Works for selling through big box stores and I didn't care where they came from. I wanted those particular stoves and paid full list and freight to get the 30. And got the pellet stove for a song as it turned out by waiting.

I still buy all of my pipe and stuff from them and was in there and bought stuff yesterday. I bought the stove the 30 replaced from his daddy twenty five years ago. But hard headed cost him at least a grand and probably more on those stoves. But it was his decision and I don't have any hard feelings about it. One of the best things about when I left corporate America and went into business for myself was that I could tell potential customers that thought they were God's gift to me to hit the door and not let it hit'em in the ass.
 
I work for a small retail store and I want to share a little info. The list price and the price we, as the dealer, pay for the vent pipe we get get has the smallest profit potential. Yes we might make some profit if we willie nillie discount all of our pipe but making the smallest amount of money possible just doesn't seem like a wise plan. My boss has lots of overhead. Here is a list to give you an idea: Showroom, Displays, Employees, Education for the Employees, Trucks on the road, and many more things. If you never want to touch a product before buying keep buying all of your goods on line. It just makes me so angry when these people come in and get the education from us, waste our time, and shop on-line.
 
mo burns said:
I work for a small retail store and I want to share a little info. The list price and the price we, as the dealer, pay for the vent pipe we get get has the smallest profit potential. Yes we might make some profit if we willie nillie discount all of our pipe but making the smallest amount of money possible just doesn't seem like a wise plan. My boss has lots of overhead. Here is a list to give you an idea: Showroom, Displays, Employees, Education for the Employees, Trucks on the road, and many more things. If you never want to touch a product before buying keep buying all of your goods on line. It just makes me so angry when these people come in and get the education from us, waste our time, and shop on-line.

being on the "factory" end i actually would (and do) suggest contacting the factory for information "how to's" and such. its what my service department is there for. as for where they buy its not our concern so much as "that they buy"

that said , i have no problem when a customer calls looking recommending hearth members first when someone is looking for a product. and on a few occasions when i didnt have the product they were looking for (none of my stoves would "fit the bill" for their application i ask where they are and try to find a hearth member's store to contact. they are gonna buy one , i dont have em , why not try to get a member a sale.

being straight with a customer is not only the proper thing to do , but think of it this way , when they need somthing else they may look my way first because i was straight with them in the past. doesnt apply in every case and im not looking to make a habit out of doing someones research long term , but it has in the past sold some stuff, plus i sleep well at night.

just my 2 cents

BTW mo, if ya want pm me your lines and location , i'll add you to my little list of "referrals" be glad to pass your info on if the situation arises, or anyone else for that matter, be forewarned im gonna sell my product first , but if i aint got what they want i'll pass your info on.
 
stoveguy2esw said:
...being straight with a customer is not only the proper thing to do , but think of it this way , when they need somthing else they may look my way first because i was straight with them in the past...

That right there says a lot, and I can attest to the fact that I have, as a consumer, been exactly the guy you're talking about, Mike. I've (more than once) returned with follow-on business to a straight-shooting vendor who didn't happen to have exactly what I was looking for the first time we met, but tried his best to help me find it anyway. Others who pretty much just said, "Nope, don't got it, dunno who does." never saw me again, no matter what I was looking for the next time around. We need a whole lot more like you and a whole lot fewer of them. Rick
 
It just makes me so angry when these people come in and get the education from us, waste our time, and shop on-line.

Mo, I have a brick-and-mortar store, and can appreciate your viewpoint. However, I'm also one of those dreaded internet retailers, which affords me another point of view.

Imagine posting a hearth product website with the goal of providing every bit of information a consumer might need to make an informed buying decision. Keep adding more info every spare minute you get for over a decade, until your website runs over 900 pages. Put in a toll-free number so people can call you on your dime for answers they can't find on the site. Patiently answer the call volume generated by 70,000 website visitors per month. Also respond to an average of 25-30 E-mail questions generated by the website every day, most of which turn into back-and-forth info-sharing exchanges that help the consumer choose the ideal product.

Then get the final E-mail or phone call thanking you for all your efforts, and letting you know they bought from their local dealer, who wasn't nearly as knowledgeable or helpful as you have been. It is the other side of your coin, and it happens every day.

This is a free marketplace, my brother, and there's no reason to let it make you angry. Hang in there, educate your customers, strive for excellence, and you will succeed.
 
thechimneysweep said:
...Then get the final E-mail or phone call thanking you for all your efforts, and letting you know they bought from their local dealer, who wasn't nearly as knowledgeable or helpful as you have been...

If you ever get that final acknowledgment at all. You'll never know how many people you've educated and steered in the right direction, Tom. I'm sure the number would astound me...maybe you, as well, if it could ever be known. Your website is a treasure of information to woodburners, and I thank you for it. I know it takes a lot of effort. I wish you nothing but success going into the future, both online and in the "brick & mortar" store. Rick
 
thechimneysweep said:
It just makes me so angry when these people come in and get the education from us, waste our time, and shop on-line.

Imagine posting a hearth product website with the goal of providing every bit of information a consumer might need to make an informed buying decision. Keep adding more info every spare minute you get for over a decade, until your website runs over 900 pages. Put in a toll-free number so people can call you on your dime for answers they can't find on the site. Patiently answer the call volume generated by 70,000 website visitors per month. Also respond to an average of 25-30 E-mail questions generated by the website every day, most of which turn into back-and-forth info-sharing exchanges that help the consumer choose the ideal product.

.

your paragraph above is why you are among the best in the industry at what you do , hell, i direct folks to your site because there arent places to get that much knowlege in one place elsewhere and use it for a referrence myself quite often. you did (on your site ) and do, daily a fantastic job, my hat is off to you Tom, you are a credit to the industry. i wouldnt be as good at my job were it not for you.
 
I trouble shoot my appliances when I need a part. The local guys do this for me and I get from them. They are more than happy to spend a few minutes with me on the phone to make the sale.

If there is a problem with the part they will take of it. Get it on line? Your screwed in time and money.
 
thechimneysweep said:
It just makes me so angry when these people come in and get the education from us, waste our time, and shop on-line.

Mo, I have a brick-and-mortar store, and can appreciate your viewpoint. However, I'm also one of those dreaded internet retailers, which affords me another point of view.

Imagine posting a hearth product website with the goal of providing every bit of information a consumer might need to make an informed buying decision. Keep adding more info every spare minute you get for over a decade, until your website runs over 900 pages. Put in a toll-free number so people can call you on your dime for answers they can't find on the site. Patiently answer the call volume generated by 70,000 website visitors per month. Also respond to an average of 25-30 E-mail questions generated by the website every day, most of which turn into back-and-forth info-sharing exchanges that help the consumer choose the ideal product.

Then get the final E-mail or phone call thanking you for all your efforts, and letting you know they bought from their local dealer, who wasn't nearly as knowledgeable or helpful as you have been. It is the other side of your coin, and it happens every day.

This is a free marketplace, my brother, and there's no reason to let it make you angry. Hang in there, educate your customers, strive for excellence, and you will succeed.

We also have had a small retail shop for 25yrs, and maintain it along with the online business.
regardless of how great your service is, there will always be a portion of the population who want to do it themselves to save bucks-in this economy who can blame?
that said, its a tough issue for all

i sorta get a chuckle about people complaining about internet retailers on an internet forum
 
Anything I can do myself, I will do myself. To pay someone for their labor is SO expensive. And those that work for cheap, well, you get what you pay for. I am "gutting" my master bathroom. Cost to me to do it? $1000. Lots of hours of labor for me, maybe some beer and pizza for helpers. If I were to hire someone? No less than $8000, but I'm guessing $10,000. It is what you are willing to do. I installed my stove myself, with a helper. I paid someone to do my roof. It's all about what your willing to do, and what your willing to pay.
 
The Good Senator is correct. But luckily for stores and tradespeople, the fact is that most people don't hardly know how to use a drill, let alone all the rest of the tool box! So there will always be both ends of the spectrum and everything in between. IMHO, the retailer who embraces the best of both worlds are the ones who will succeed.

Interestingly enough, we had this debate among hearth dealers back in 1995 when I first started Hearth.com. Many dealers claimed "heck, why should my customers come to the store any longer when Craig will educate them for free?"

But I claimed two things. First of all, none of us are able to stop a rising tide nor the sun from coming up in the morning - we simply have no choice but to change and adapt. Secondly, and most importantly, I claimed that the customer now might only need 15 minutes in the store instead of an hour, because he or she is pre-educated, and that could save a retailers a lot of money and time. Also, all of those unwanted visits of customers coming in the store at busy times and wanting a mica window for their antique stove can now be solved instantly by giving them a URL.

I think the net has done MUCH more good than harm for the savvy retailer. However, many retailers are still back in 1995.....and just don't understand what hit them.
 
Actually, Hearth.com has created business for me. I think it is an asset to our industry. I'm a slippery inch away from banner ads. If only Craig would admit his crush on Sarah Pail In ..I would probably commit. How I handle the intraweb sales, is I simply refuse to sell products that folks can buy online as I can sell them wholesale. I can match price on venting with the online discounters, my units are not whored out online. In fact, I stopped selling Traeger BBQs because of their lack of an internet policy. Instead, I found a great local welder who makes high end charcoal grills. They are pricey, but I want to support other local small business and industry. Traeger can go pound pellets.
 
I feel it would be unfair and borderline sleazy to purchase a brand new, top of the line machine from someone else and then expect him to service it if something goes wrong.

Thanks Bobbin, I think you hit it right on the head
 
Resiburner said:
I feel it would be unfair and borderline sleazy to purchase a brand new, top of the line machine from someone else and then expect him to service it if something goes wrong.

Thanks Bobbin, I think you hit it right on the head

I'll let my wife know she's unfair and borderline sleazy. A very nice sewing machine that she bought from a shop she liked a few years back when we lived in Virginia stopped working a few months ago here in our new home in Oregon. She did not take that machine back to the shop from which she purchased it, but found a shop here in Bend with really nice folks who were more than happy to fix it for her, even though she hadn't bought it from them. Runs like a top again, now...and they know they've got a new customer (one with 4 sewing machines :ahhh: ). Things are often not quite as simple as absolute statements make them out to be. It depends. Rick
 
As with anything else, it works both ways. A lot of the most vocal critics of online competition more than likely buy things at Walmart, Amazon, etc. just doing like everyone else does and trying to save money. Sometimes it's a fine balance between wanting to support local businesses while not encouraging overly high prices.

For example, I just bought a plasma TV for my bday this past weekend. Best Buy had it one sale for $519, our local shop had it for $579. I asked the local guys if they'd split the difference with me at $550. They did, and everyone's happy except the big corporate box store.

The bottom line is that everyone is trying to do the best for themselves that they can. Our local stove shop wants $2,850 for a new no-frills Jotul 500, and they best they would do is take $100 off. Other dealers sold the same stove for about $1,800. Sorry, but I'm not throwing away $900 to support a local shop--especially when I do the install myself.......

A university professor did an interesting study a few years ago on people in residential neighborhoods who are proactive in the extreme about enforcing the speed limit on their street. Some write down license plates of offenders and turn them into the cops, some make their own very large speed limit signs and put them in their yard, other use safety cones, and other still borrow radar guns from the cops----you get the idea. So this professor located about 20 of these "speed limits zealots" in his city, and had his students follow the property owners around when they were driving around town. Can you guess the results of the study??

That's right, over 85% of the most vocal "don't speed on our street!!" proponents had NO PROBLEM in speeding through other residential neighborhoods, and several were caught speeding on their own street!!

Moral of the story is that often times the most vocal are the most guilty of the very thing that they complain about........


NP
 
Some better service after the sale testimonies on this forum would go a long way toward the case for buying locally. In four years here I have seen three of them. And it isn't just because people come here only if they have a bad experience. Most come here to find out how to burn in the thing.

I do agree that you should not eat up the dealers time picking his brain. When I walk into the local stove shop I tell Chase to go talk to somebody that will be paying his bills. If I can't find it I will ask him where it is. The funny thing was a couple of weeks ago I asked if he had something and he said no. I went back to the pipe section and moved something and there it was. When I was paying for it I told him that obviously I had more faith in him than he did.
 
I really have nothing against online sales.It is a great tool when something is needed that you can't find local, or the local is out of line on cost or service. There are many small online shops that give great service and know their stuff. Since this is a online forum I wanted to get a feel for what people thought.
What I am getting from people is that most people give the local retail a chance.
 
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