Who's using all the heating oil?

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

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I am with Mr. Trump on this. I don't think he said anything offensive at all. I disconnected the relatively new oil burner in my home. In fact, this summer I disabled the storage tank as well.
Obviously this was a very personal choice, and I am NOT advocating that everyone else must imediately follow suit. However, there are a lot more options than those mentioned by the objecters so far.

We MUST get off oil specificaly, but coal as well, ASAP. No, oil has not always been available for the last 60 years. Remember '73? In today's increasingly turbulent political and social times the likelyhood of a repeat is far from remote.

Someday in the future, people will look back on this era with great sadness and lack of understanding. We are burning the building blocks of our future. If we manufacture things with oil and coal instead, we can recover at least 90% of the mass through recycling. When we burn it, all is lost.

Even as we speak, great efforts are being made to increase the cost of burning fossil fuels. How could one possibly delude themselves into thinking that oil will always be cheap and available?

Highbeam said:

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

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That's just silly. I fully expect that in ten years I will be filling up my diesel truck's fuel tank at a similar price to today. Look back in time. Fuel has always (last 60 years at least) been available and always at about the same price, don't forget inflation. There is nothing wrong with oil heat until something better comes along. I actually like electric heat as a backup due to low intitial cost, almost zero maintenance, and no CO leak possibilities.

Don't be fooled into thinking that petroleum will just go away. There's plenty of waste that will be reigned in before we are unable to fill our tanks or heat our homes.

It's like when they told us that the metric system would take over way back in the 60s.

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Ever heard of PEAK OIL ,well its coming to a dealer near you,and when it does everyone will be trying to get off the ship at once.Right after the spike in oil prices in 2003 ,the waiting time for a new coal stoker grew to 2 years in my area due to heavy demand. How much warning did we have when heating oil spiked up to $4.50 a gallon before?
Next time the price hike will be from short supply and not commodity traders and it will go higher, No oil wont go away, it will just keep taking more and more of your money. Your diesel truck may well be burning bio-diesel in the future. With chinas growth in autos exploding and india, 2 HUGE oil consuming markets i dont see oil prices going anywhere but up.

btuser said:

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

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Get me a natural gas pipe to my house and I'll throw out my 1yr old oil burner. Till then there isn't another serious alternative for me. Geothermal would be about 50k, and at $.18/KW it would take $7.00 oil to pay for it. Propane sucks, even worse than oil. Wood pellets are a racket, as anyone buying $219/ton pellets can attest when in 2008 they were closer to $350/ton. They're not an alterantive for central heat. Not everyone can use wood either, and unless you get wood for free its doesn't come cheap.

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You've probably got the best combination already,run that wood burner whenever you can and the oil furnace will rarely come on.
I use waste wood to heat homes under renovation ,its better than free as i dont have to pay to dispose of it.

peakbagger said:

With regards to Trump's comment. There arent a lot of alternatives in the Northeast to heating oil. Wood is great for supplemental heat but when someone goes on vacation (or the bank ends up the with building), there has to be a heating system that can run reliably unattended for weeks at a time. Natural Gas infrastructure is too costly to install due to deep frost and lots of ledge. Until the new gas lines were installed from New Brunswick and Quebec 15 years ago, northern NE was at the end of the gas line and everytime the southern NE got cold, the northern NE utilities had to run peak storage plants (very costly ) to keep the line from running out. LP gas is made from oil so that isnt a good standby. The automated wood pellet systems are still proving themselves to be reliable for unattended service and costs double that of a heating oil system. Ground source heat pumps have some potential, but in most areas the cost is 4 to 5 times that of heating oil and even though they dont use a lot of electric power, the yearly maintenance bills are a big cost of owning as there are few firms that will service them and many parts that can and do go wrong.

So barring electric resistance baseboard, I dont see a lot of choices, given that in cold weather, a house can cool down to the point where pipes start freezing in less than 24 hours.

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Your right sometimes its hard to find a replacement but,you can always keep your oil system installed and ready as a backup for the less costly but more maintenance intensive methods such as wood,waste wood,pellets or corn or coal. ANd if the buliding is unoccupied you can turn the oil way down and you wont use much. i went from using 2-3 tanks a year to less than 1 tank on a rental thats only occupied on weekends by turning the Tstat down to 55 during the week.

trump said:

north of 60 said:

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

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OK, you tell me what else the hospitals/ commercial institutes and old folks can use around here. All the transport trucks that will deliver our magic fuel here will be solar? If you are driving a car and its not electric then you are burning OIL. Look outside out of your shell and there is actually a world out there.

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This forum is about green alternatives ,doesn't seem like your interested in alternatives ,or at least an open mind about them.
SInce i saved $20,000 in 8 years by changing to Coal from oil ,imaging what commercial institutions and Hospitals could save ,and even old folks (im not so young myself)unless they are completely helpless could use alternatives.Friend of mine is in his 80s ,says he wouldnt know what to do with himself in winter if he could not fiddle with his coal stove. I install as well as maintain heating systems in several dozen properties so im not talking from inexperience. I dont know what YOUR alternatives are but i know what
mine are,and all in my area are cheaper than oil except electric and NG is probably a bit less and less likely to spike overnight like oil can. My alternatives are Coal,cord wood,waste wood, corn,pellet stove, NG, & LP Gas. I used to use oil to heat my home and kerosene to heat homes under renovation, now i use coal to heat my home and waste wood to heat homes under renovation,im saving a fortune plus saving the oil for all you who are willing to pay the price for it.

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Your answer is COAL! Give me a break. Heating is all I do. 23Yrs of it. Show me something that some GREEN engineer has built that I haven't ripped out as it was to costly to run, unmaintainable and plainly didn't work. Your Ideas dont work for everyone. I am happy for you, BUT dont blanket everyone together. Seems to me you have access to everything. I gotta go fill up the Diesel generator now. The days will be getting shorter.
N of 60

Obviously some of us are in extreme circumstances, yet even some of those may yet have unexplored choices. My parrents are now too old to heat with either wood or coal. A few years ago, I offered to build them a new home, super insulated, with passive solar, and on one level. They declined, and are now selling their farm, with the old ineficient yet very updated home. To me, that is a shame. I could hardly force them though.

north of 60 said:

trump said:

north of 60 said:

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

Click to expand...

OK, you tell me what else the hospitals/ commercial institutes and old folks can use around here. All the transport trucks that will deliver our magic fuel here will be solar? If you are driving a car and its not electric then you are burning OIL. Look outside out of your shell and there is actually a world out there.

Click to expand...

This forum is about green alternatives ,doesn't seem like your interested in alternatives ,or at least an open mind about them.
SInce i saved $20,000 in 8 years by changing to Coal from oil ,imaging what commercial institutions and Hospitals could save ,and even old folks (im not so young myself)unless they are completely helpless could use alternatives.Friend of mine is in his 80s ,says he wouldnt know what to do with himself in winter if he could not fiddle with his coal stove. I install as well as maintain heating systems in several dozen properties so im not talking from inexperience. I dont know what YOUR alternatives are but i know what
mine are,and all in my area are cheaper than oil except electric and NG is probably a bit less and less likely to spike overnight like oil can. My alternatives are Coal,cord wood,waste wood, corn,pellet stove, NG, & LP Gas. I used to use oil to heat my home and kerosene to heat homes under renovation, now i use coal to heat my home and waste wood to heat homes under renovation,im saving a fortune plus saving the oil for all you who are willing to pay the price for it.

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Your answer is COAL! Give me a break. Heating is all I do. 23Yrs of it. Show me something that some GREEN engineer has built that I haven't ripped out as it was to costly to run, unmaintainable and plainly didn't work. Your Ideas dont work for everyone. I am happy for you, BUT dont blanket everyone together. Seems to me you have access to everything. I gotta go fill up the Diesel generator now. The days will be getting shorter.
N of 60

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Your right My ideas are not for everyone,then again everyone doesn't live in the YUKON North of 60.

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

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Gee i sure ruffled some feathers with this post.
I was referring to people in my area who have access to the same alternatives i do,not people living in the frozen north or anywhere else with exceptional circumstances. I hear people complain all the time about the high cost of heating oil, but make no attempt to find a better way.
No i dont think COAL is Green but its an all american fuel and im not funding some Arab sheiks lifestyle. And theres no danger of running out any time soon. As always anyone willing to do a little work will always heat cheaper than the person who just wants to turn up the thermostat now and then.

Some people live N of 60, and some people live in Fantasy Land. Biodiesel right now is a joke. We're using more petroleum to grow the stock than we get out in fuel. Ethanol is a zero-gain fuel too, doing nothing but feeding corporate farms. Maybe soon we'll be using algae-oil and cooking on a parabolic mirror, but how cheap do you think coal is going to be when oil is back to $4.50/gallon.

Come to think of it, oil displaced coal as a cheaper alternative over 70 years ago. How cheap is it going to be when there is no alternative? Smoke 'em while you got 'em, becaue coal may work in PA, but that's like someone in AZ complaining that Alaska is behind the curve when it comes to solar power. It would still come to my house on a diesel truck.

trump said:

Highbeam said:

trump said:

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.

Click to expand...

That's just silly. I fully expect that in ten years I will be filling up my diesel truck's fuel tank at a similar price to today. Look back in time. Fuel has always (last 60 years at least) been available and always at about the same price, don't forget inflation. There is nothing wrong with oil heat until something better comes along. I actually like electric heat as a backup due to low intitial cost, almost zero maintenance, and no CO leak possibilities.

Don't be fooled into thinking that petroleum will just go away. There's plenty of waste that will be reigned in before we are unable to fill our tanks or heat our homes.

It's like when they told us that the metric system would take over way back in the 60s.

Click to expand...

Ever heard of PEAK OIL ,well its coming to a dealer near you,and when it does everyone will be trying to get off the ship at once.Right after the spike in oil prices in 2003 ,the waiting time for a new coal stoker grew to 2 years in my area due to heavy demand. How much warning did we have when heating oil spiked up to $4.50 a gallon before?
Next time the price hike will be from short supply and not commodity traders and it will go higher, No oil wont go away, it will just keep taking more and more of your money. Your diesel truck may well be burning bio-diesel in the future. With chinas growth in autos exploding and india, 2 HUGE oil consuming markets i dont see oil prices going anywhere but up.

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The problem is that most of the folks researching peak oil believe - and world history would suggest they might be right - that when demand does outstrip supply (any year now) that people will go into panic mode and hoarding/profiteering/etc will bring the whole system down.

In that scenario heating oil will be the least of your worries. You will likely be too preoccupied with more immediate needs - like obtaining food.

99% of people wont see it coming till it hits us like a brick wall. A month after the GOM disaster and they are right back to buying SUVs...

trump said:

Your right My ideas are not for everyone,then again everyone doesn't live in the YUKON North of 60.

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Your blanket statement doesnt cover many places in your own COUNTRY. :roll:

btuser said:

Some people live N of 60, and some people live in Fantasy Land. Biodiesel right now is a joke. We're using more petroleum to grow the stock than we get out in fuel. Ethanol is a zero-gain fuel too, doing nothing but feeding corporate farms. Maybe soon we'll be using algae-oil and cooking on a parabolic mirror, but how cheap do you think coal is going to be when oil is back to $4.50/gallon.

Come to think of it, oil displaced coal as a cheaper alternative over 70 years ago. How cheap is it going to be when there is no alternative? Smoke 'em while you got 'em, becaue coal may work in PA, but that's like someone in AZ complaining that Alaska is behind the curve when it comes to solar power. It would still come to my house on a diesel truck.

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===========
Quite a bit of our coal still does go to new england as well as all the way to germany. actually coal is not my best hope for a sustainable fuel supply. Waste wood is were all the value is for me. I already use it to heat residential housing and i am preparing to heat a commercial building with it. So far i can get all i want and people even pay to get rid of it. Yes i know this is not for everyone ,but if you have access to supply and are not afraid of a little work, i cant imagine anywhere in the lower 48 were this wont work.

north of 60 said:

trump said:

Your right My ideas are not for everyone,then again everyone doesn't live in the YUKON North of 60.

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Your blanket statement doesnt cover many places in your own COUNTRY. :roll:

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Our anthracite coal is shipped all over the east coast and as far as germany. Coal is not my only hope though ,been using waste wood for several years and its working like a charm. fairly widely available in the lower 48 ,have a friend in yellowknife who use oil for heat,im sure theres not as much wood up that far.

Who ever said that this forum was about "green alternatives" it's the green room. Many ways to be green without seeking alternatives. Coal is not readily available in my part of the country, not even the machines to burn it. Pellets are available at 180$ per ton, our waste wood I guess.

I don't know if I believe in this Peak Oil theory.

When i first started using wood stoves in an effort to get away from heating oil (just a few years ago) This site helped me tremendously with a wealth of ideas and information on the subject. Its worked out very well for me and if my success can help someone else save some hard earned cash and also reduce our reliance on imported energy at the same time then i feel i have returned the favor. We can do just about anything we put our mind to,so when it comes to energy independence, new ideas are helpful, if we just keep thinking of 100 ways why this and that will never work we,ll never get out of this imported energy hole.

Now lets all hold hands and Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

WHen it comes to winter heat ,It seems there's 2 kinds of people here in Pa , The ones with the giant pile of wood in their backyard ready for when the snow flies. And the ones who seem to have better things to do with their time,but every year never fail to sign up for the Heating assistance program where the Govt pays your heat bill. Year after year. Seems like nothing is accomplished but kicking the can down the road another year by paying for peoples heat every year.
In the case where the people are young and healthy i would think the money would be better spent purchasing a wood stove, for these people and let them do a little work to provide their own fuel. At least its only a one time expense for the stove instead of every year paying their heating fuel.
Of course if they are elderly or otherwise disabled it is fine the way it is now, but as it is now there are no restrictions as to who gets this other than income limits. A family of 5 has to make over $40000 a year before they no longer qualify.

Highbeam said:

Who ever said that this forum was about "green alternatives" it's the green room. Many ways to be green without seeking alternatives. Coal is not readily available in my part of the country, not even the machines to burn it. Pellets are available at 180$ per ton, our waste wood I guess.

I don't know if I believe in this Peak Oil theory.

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Its not a theory, it is fact based on basic math and its here now. World oil production peaked around 2005 and we have been on a bumpy plateau at the top since then, we will be at the other side of the production bell curve any day now. This is well known by our "leaders" The only reason why we aren't seeing $5 gasoline right now is because our government is killing demand (open your eyes). start here: www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net

PEAK oil meaning we have used up most of it and there isn't gonna be as much from now on I don't buy, lack of supply due to market and idiotic gov policy I buy, but raise the price due to not enough demand and oil that is to expensive to get to now will become oil that big oil can turn a profit on, even at the worst of the energy crisis in the 70's there was oil for sale from the north sea, north slope and the rest of the world, the "crisis" was that one area that produced most of the world oil stopped selling for a while, today there are many more places producing and places that could produce in a short time if the incentive was there. Yes we get short booms and busts in price, it is called market fluctuations they will happen no mater what we do to try to "fix" them.
For myself I buy pellets as they are made in the US and employ US workers at every stage in the chain, but even "foreign" oil in the US mostly comes from Canada and Mexico, as pipelines are cheaper than tankers, those two countries that aren't sponsoring radical Islam against us with the money we send them...

look at the chart, nuff said

Yep same guy who said H1N1 was going to be an epidemic. I can recall that being on a chart too. Since its on a chart it must be true. Some special chart. I made some in grade school. Well if its true we are all doomed as every thing we use every day is related to it. I am not gonna hide in my closet though as there is nothing can be done. The world revolves around it. Back to the wooden wheel I guess.

I see you are another one in denial. Look around, something is going on, here in the USA we are considered to be a "wealthy nation"... Did you know one out of 6 of us are on food stamps? did you know one out of four of our children are on food stamps? Think about how long those breadlines would be if it was out in the open like in the great depression. Skyrocketing unemployment, people recieving benefits for over 99 weeks? 14 Trillion dollar national debt and our states are going bankrupt. Our banks were bankrupt then bailed, now we have to print into oblivion to cover the losses. Everything was based on exponential growth, and growth has stopped due to energy constraints. These are bad problems and we are mearly at the flat peak (since 2005 global production has in fact been flat). On the other side is a slippery slope.

Did you know the USA's oil production peaked in the 1970's and has been in decline since then? also there hasn't been a super giant or giant oil field discovered anywhere in the world since around that time and that oil fields start declining in production at about 40-50 years. All other means of production are just a drop in the bucket. Like I said this is basic math and like you said it is a real problem cause we are all dependent on it for nearly everything.

As long as oil is the optimal material for [energy | building materials | raw material for clothing | whatever] in terms of overall cost, it will be used. If/when it no longer is then alternatives will be considered - relative cost of these alternatives will come down and they will become more attractive if oil becomes more expensive. "Something" else will take the place of it. This may force a new revolution of some sort - I don't see mankind in general stepping back to the wooden wheel so more likely we'll find ways to move forward - carbon fibre, whatever for materials (carbon can come from MANY sources) - I have no idea what the optimal energy sources will be, but there are many sources out there currently known and well understood.

My opinion is that those who see oil (or fossil fuels in general) as the ONLY possible motivator for an economy and predict surefire doom when supplies become more scarce are taking a very pessimistic and short sighted view of things. The history of technology shows that we (mankind in general) have proven to be quite resourceful and creative when faced with the necessity to do so. In some way this could be used as the basis for an argument that a reduction in oil supplies could be a good thing to look forward to - perhaps providing exactly the impetus needed to push us into the next energy and/or technology revolution. I choose not to fear change - rather see it as opportunity.

I think we will always have oil ,but at What price? YOU also have to take into account there are 70 to 80 Million new people added to the worlds population each and every year needing food,housing,water and the land to produce all that is not infinite.
WHat ever you think of peak oil if you use oil for heat you would be wise to have alternatives ready and available as most on this forum already do with their wood stoves.

If you use oil for auto fuel you would be wise to have alternatives as well, the reason real electric cars, NOT hybrids need to be readily available, soon.