Generator for backup power??? Good or bad idea?

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westom said:
Joker3092 said:
I have been doing some reading and have read that a generator may give off surges and could fry the control board??? Is this even possible??? Wouldn't a good surge protector protect the stove from the power surges???
Any add-on device (a power strip protector) costs many times more money than a solution at the source - inside the generator. If a generator is creating surges that destructive, then it can also damage the protector circuit. And the stove remains connected to that surge.

This 'surge' problem is discussed in generalities as if all surges are same. If a cheap 120 volt generator suddenly loses its load, this its voltage can peak at well over 180 volts. But since that voltage is well below 330 volts, then that surge is ignored even by all surge protectors. View that 330 volt number on every surge protector box.

Solution to those surges is inside the generator. Add-in solutions are not effective. Therefore many spend a little more for the Honda rather than massively for protectors – that do not claim to protect from many types of surges created by a generator. Solution is easiest and least expensive when solved inside the generator with smarter designs.

Good point. However, the Japanese aren't the only ones capable of making good voltage regulators and clamping circuitry.

Don't buy the cheap chinese generators then. There are some quality made ones that are designed and made right in the USA like briggs and straton, Onan,etc.

It is not a requirement to buy a Honda to get a good generator. You can get a quality generator for much less that will fill your needs.

Of course, you won't be able to carry it around, and it won't be as quite, but you also don't need to spend 900.00 some dollars on something that will sit in your garage or shed, and probably never get used, and get all gummed up with old gasoline.

You can get a good generator for 500.00 that is made in the USA, and has more power, or you could buy a cheap Champion that is made in chine by a US company that has it's own facility in China, and its own quality control for 329.00. When I bought mine, I did a lot of research and settled on the Champion because it was cheap, and I knew I might never use it.

Of course, if I had it to do again, I would just buy an all American made one but that has become more important to me lately as I think when we buy Chinese, or Japanese, we loose the abilty and knowledge to make these items in the US, and I believe for our own security and place in the world market, we need to make things for ourselves and export them.

Mark :)
 
mark d fellows said:
You can get a good generator for 500.00 that is made in the USA, and has more power, or you could buy a cheap Champion that is made in chine by a US company that has it's own facility in China, and its own quality control for 329.00. When I bought mine, I did a lot of research and settled on the Champion because it was cheap, and I knew I might never use it.

Of course, if I had it to do again, I would just buy an all American made one but that has become more important to me lately as I think when we buy Chinese, or Japanese, we loose the abilty and knowledge to make these items in the US, and I believe for our own security and place in the world market, we need to make things for ourselves and export them.

Mark :)

I've got a Briggs and Stratton PRO4000 - Vangaurd engine (made in Japan I think) but the genny head is (I believe) made in USA, and the unit was assembled in the USA. A bit pricey but sometime you get what you pay for. As a Canadian, I have no problems buying things made in the USA ;-) .

Cheers

Kenny
 
I've never lost power for any significant amount of time. a few hours here and there at most. The biggest problem was the whole new england black out that happened some 5 years ago or so if i remember correctly. I was out of power for about 1 full day. But, it wasn't winter when that happened. If worse comes to worse, i have some wood (probably 1/2 cord split and tarped to stay dry) that i mainly use in my outdoor backyard firepit in the summer. My neighbor across the river is a wood burner and he has stacks and stacks of wood on our border.... if it comes down to it, i'm sure i could burn some of his as well. The issue here is that i'd have to un-install my pellet insert.

<-- again regretting the insert over the free-standing :(
 
Kenny said:
I've got a Briggs and Stratton PRO4000 - Vangaurd engine (made in Japan I think) but the genny head is (I believe) made in USA, and the unit was assembled in the USA.
B&S has always been a benchmark for crap. I do not care where it is made. A patriotic American believes in the free market - buy the best. If everyone did that decades ago, B&S management would have been driven out, American engineers (not accountants) would have been designing generators, and Honda would not be the benchmark for quality.

Reason why a Honda is so light, is so conservative on fuel, and does not create potentially destructive surges - is it not designed by cost controllers from business schools. It is chock full of American technologies that engineers in Briggs and Stratton, Omron, and other generator companies were not permitted to use.

If a generator needs a surge protector, the least expensive solution is to sell the generator. Get one that properly controls it output - especially when the load goes from 100% to 0%. That condition can harm appliances. And no surge protector can avert the damage. Buy a generator designed by engineers - no by business school graduates. Only then are you providing jobs for Americans.
 
westom said:
Kenny said:
I've got a Briggs and Stratton PRO4000 - Vangaurd engine (made in Japan I think) but the genny head is (I believe) made in USA, and the unit was assembled in the USA.
B&S has always been a benchmark for crap. I do not care where it is made. A patriotic American believes in the free market - buy the best. If everyone did that decades ago, B&S management would have been driven out, American engineers (not accountants) would have been designing generators, and Honda would not be the benchmark for quality.

Reason why a Honda is so light, is so conservative on fuel, and does not create potentially destructive surges - is it not designed by cost controllers from business schools. It is chock full of American technologies that engineers in Briggs and Stratton, Omron, and other generator companies were not permitted to use.

If a generator needs a surge protector, the least expensive solution is to sell the generator. Get one that properly controls it output - especially when the load goes from 100% to 0%. That condition can harm appliances. And no surge protector can avert the damage. Buy a generator designed by engineers - no by business school graduates. Only then are you providing jobs for Americans.

Your point about bean counters is a valid one. I feel that the reason the big three were in such trouble is because bean counters wanted to keep the stock price up now, and didn't worry about quality and innovation down the line, for the future.

I myself had a policy for years where I would only buy import cars because I felt the domestic brands were crap. ...and they were. They are better now though, now that someone has started to get off of their ass and pay attention.

However, I am afraid that if we don't make an effort to buy American now when we can and when quality is suitable, it may be too late later.

I wonder how all the "patriotic" Americans will feel when they are forced to learn and speak Chinese.

Mark :)
 
"Buy American" is a sham, really.

A Honda accord has more man hours from American workers than a chevy _______, usually assembled and produced in mexico.

By buying a honda/toyota/hyundai/etc/ you are actually keeping american workers with jobs.


Clothing is probably the only 'made in usa' market that is actually really still American based.... at least if its cotton. If its any other materials, its sourced overseas anyway, so there's no point in buying American at all anymore.

Our country is screwed because somehow we think its important that EVERYONE at least make $8.xx an hour, no matter how tedious or unskilled the job. Minimum wage effectively screwed our free market system and simply causes inflation. I am no forced to pay $8 an hour to have my toilets cleaned, instead of offering it for $5... and if no one takes it, trying 6... or if i get 100 apps, reducing the pay to $3 or $4.... you get the point.

The real answer to all this is that we need a world currency. The Chinese are taking over because the gov't keeps their currency at only 80% value, effectively paying their employees nothing, but selling goods overseas at a premium.
 
Kenny said:
mark d fellows said:
You can get a good generator for 500.00 that is made in the USA, and has more power, or you could buy a cheap Champion that is made in chine by a US company that has it's own facility in China, and its own quality control for 329.00. When I bought mine, I did a lot of research and settled on the Champion because it was cheap, and I knew I might never use it.

Of course, if I had it to do again, I would just buy an all American made one but that has become more important to me lately as I think when we buy Chinese, or Japanese, we loose the abilty and knowledge to make these items in the US, and I believe for our own security and place in the world market, we need to make things for ourselves and export them.

Mark :)

I've got a Briggs and Stratton PRO4000 - Vangaurd engine (made in Japan I think) but the genny head is (I believe) made in USA, and the unit was assembled in the USA. A bit pricey but sometime you get what you pay for. As a Canadian, I have no problems buying things made in the USA ;-) .

Cheers

Kenny

Thanks for helping us out by buying from the US! Thank you for helping your neighbors out!

Mark :)
 
briansol said:
"Buy American" is a sham, really.

A Honda accord has more man hours from American workers than a chevy _______, usually assembled and produced in mexico.

By buying a honda/toyota/hyundai/etc/ you are actually keeping american workers with jobs.


Clothing is probably the only 'made in usa' market that is actually really still American based.... at least if its cotton. If its any other materials, its sourced overseas anyway, so there's no point in buying American at all anymore.

Our country is screwed because somehow we think its important that EVERYONE at least make $8.xx an hour, no matter how tedious or unskilled the job. Minimum wage effectively screwed our free market system and simply causes inflation. I am no forced to pay $8 an hour to have my toilets cleaned, instead of offering it for $5... and if no one takes it, trying 6... or if i get 100 apps, reducing the pay to $3 or $4.... you get the point.

The real answer to all this is that we need a world currency. The Chinese are taking over because the gov't keeps their currency at only 80% value, effectively paying their employees nothing, but selling goods overseas at a premium.

Yep. A lot of industry needs robotized. You don't need to pay a robot anything. It doesn't call in sick, doesn't strike, doesn't complain it deserves more, etc.

Minumum wage is nothing. If you are only earning minimum wage as an adult, you either made some bad decisions as a younger person, or you have fallen on bad times.

I know the innovators, the creators of companies have died off mostly, and what we are left with is a lot of people that don't know jack about how things work, and expect things to get handed to them.

Our country is screwed, that point is right.

However, I just don't choose to live my life in depression. I choose to be an optimist, and think things might get better.

We don't need a world currency. That won't solve our problems. We need to be an exporter to the world. Instead of buy buy buy, and running up our credit, we need to produce things, and export them and sell them on the world market.

China does not play by the rules from what I read. They undercut everything, and we "condemn" them saying they aren't being fair. Boo Ho!

Maybe we could do something about it. We will need to retool and retrain, but it can be done.

Look around your homes and try to find stuff made in the USA. When you find that most of the stuff is made in China, go out and try to find replacements made in the USA. You will find that you can't find anything, not even at a higher cost. It just isn't available.

Since 2001, a lot of the remaining USA companies have been bought out by the Chinese. Including schwinn, Mongoose, etc. Do a search for US bike manufactureres, you find find but maybe 2 or 3, and the prices are way out of reach.

Schwinn was a US company since it's founding in the early 1900 until then.

I have a lot of chinese stuff. I can't get similar stuff made in the usa. It just isn't available.

In fact, the entrenching tool (tri-fold shovel) I will buy to keep in the car, will most likely be made in China for Gerber.

There are two I have found. One is the Gerber E-tool(which is most likely made in China, and isn't cheap) and the other is the Ames True Temper (which I don't know where it is made, but it only folds twice, and doesn't have a fiberglass reinforced handle.

The Zippo, I bought for camping, is one of the few things that is still made in the USA. It has been two weeks since I filled it and it is still loaded with fluid.

...but I get off topic, sorry!
 
my generator has run my pellet stove for 5 days during the ice storm a few years ago, the only issue I noticed was that the circulation pumps whined in sync with the generator. I wouldn't buy the no name cheapo generator, but one that sears, home depot, lowes carries would seem to be a good mid-grade without the crazy price.
 
I have zero problems running anything on my whole-house generator (Kohler 12RES). It was specifically made to handle sensitive electronics (smooth waveform and low THD). No power around here equals no heat, no lights, no water and no flushing toilets (... not a single luxury... like Robinson Crusoe, it's primitive as can be...). It ran my pellet stove and my whole house for 8 solid days during our last ice storm. We even hosted a holiday party for 60 people in the middle of it, running both electric wall ovens simultaneously. It starts within 10 seconds, home or away, awake or asleep. It was not cheap, not by a long shot. It remains worth every penny.
 
rowerwet said:
my generator has run my pellet stove for 5 days during the ice storm a few years ago, the only issue I noticed was that the circulation pumps whined in sync with the generator. I wouldn't buy the no name cheapo generator, but one that sears, home depot, lowes carries would seem to be a good mid-grade without the crazy price.

I looked very hard at a 2250 Watt Husky at Home Depot for $499. It had great reviews, and a Subaru engine. It was a bit too noisy at 71dB vs 56dB for the Honda, and the Honda was an inverter.
 
mark d fellows said:
However, I am afraid that if we don't make an effort to buy American now when we can and when quality is suitable, it may be too late later.
If management trained to stifle innovation is not removed, then American jobs will be lost four and more years later anyway.

Wall Street Journal had a front page article that described this problem. A CT coil manufacturer noticed his $10 per hour labor in CT could be replaced by $2 per hour Mexican labor. So he moved to Mexico. Some years later, he was back in CT. He was trying to save his company. At $10 per hour, American labor cost him less money.

He was thinking how business school graduates are taught to think. Spread sheets cannot measure the most important parameters for many years. He learned the hard way.

Most business school graduates are never taught what really cuts costs or creates profits. Innovation. Brainwashed by a spread sheet mentality that does not understand what really reduces costs and creates profits. Anybody can downsize for decades as GM did to cover up inevitable job losses. If bankruptcy hits fast enough, then only management is removed and Americans do not lose jobs. If a threat of bankruptcy does not exist, the only problem will remain. Bankruptcy or threat of it is often the only way jobs are saved. Bankruptcy removes the #1 reason for job losses - management that does not come from where the work gets done.

Many top executives in the auto industry could not even drive a car. Did not have to. They knew everything necessary from their spread sheets. Harmed the American auto industry by stifling innovation for 30 years. Used downsizing to invent profits that did not exist. They remained because so many Americans kept buying American, Free markets. Buy the best. That creates American jobs. Only free markets - buy the best - will remove bad management and save American jobs. It is, for example, what saved Chrysler in 1979, IBM in the 1990, Xerox in the mid 1980, and Ford in 1981.
 
mark d fellows said:
Yep. A lot of industry needs robotized. You don't need to pay a robot anything. It doesn't call in sick, doesn't strike, doesn't complain it deserves more, etc.
When you want to see how America jobs get lost, then view a business school trained manager hyping robots as the magic cure.

Saturn never made a profit. A business school graduate can only understand solutions by throwing money at it. Or as Ross Perot so accurately said, GM threw money at problems like a grenade. Being that dumb is the definition of anti-American.

Saturn was saddled with so many robots that it never made a profit. Saturn could sell every car they ever make. And still could not make a profit. Every Saturn has a fixed $2000 price increase to pay for robots that did not increase productivity. A perfect example of what happens when bean counter rather than car guys decide where robots work and where human labor is superior.

Saturn wanted a second assembly line. If they doubled their production, then Saturn might start paying off an $8billion cost imposed by GM's bean counter management. But GM said, Saturn could not have a second assembly line in Spring Hill TN until it made a profit. Catch 22?

To save Saturn, it had to sell out to GM. Saturn lost its independence because bean counters forced robots and other cost increasers on Saturn. The only people who can decide whether a robot or a human is best are the engineers and other product designers. In every American company with problems, find the someone who does not come from where work gets done. And is trained by business schools.

Not one engineer said it was safe to launch Challenger. Not one. Why were seven astronauts killed? Same problem. Wrong people making decisions. And so many out here did not learn well published history. Both create the problem. Many would blame the Chinese rather than learn why free markets are a threat to business school graduates and make an America with jobs.
 
westom said:
mark d fellows said:
Yep. A lot of industry needs robotized. You don't need to pay a robot anything. It doesn't call in sick, doesn't strike, doesn't complain it deserves more, etc.
When you want to see how America jobs get lost, then view a business school trained manager hyping robots as the magic cure.

Saturn never made a profit. A business school graduate can only understand solutions by throwing money at it. Or as Ross Perot so accurately said, GM threw money at problems like a grenade. Being that dumb is the definition of anti-American.

Saturn was saddled with so many robots that it never made a profit. Saturn could sell every car they ever make. And still could not make a profit. Every Saturn has a fixed $2000 price increase to pay for robots that did not increase productivity. A perfect example of what happens when bean counter rather than car guys decide where robots work and where human labor is superior.

Saturn wanted a second assembly line. If they doubled their production, then Saturn might start paying off an $8billion cost imposed by GM's bean counter management. But GM said, Saturn could not have a second assembly line in Spring Hill TN until it made a profit. Catch 22?

To save Saturn, it had to sell out to GM. Saturn lost its independence because bean counters forced robots and other cost increasers on Saturn. The only people who can decide whether a robot or a human is best are the engineers and other product designers. In every American company with problems, find the someone who does not come from where work gets done. And is trained by business schools.

Not one engineer said it was safe to launch Challenger. Not one. Why were seven astronauts killed? Same problem. Wrong people making decisions. And so many out here did not learn well published history. Both create the problem. Many would blame the Chinese rather than learn why free markets are a threat to business school graduates and make an America with jobs.

Oh, I don't blame the Chinese. I blame the politicians that make policies, and neglect to make others that stop undercutting by the Chinese. I also blame the lazy upper management in the companies that know that nothing is being done for the future, yet doesn't care because the stock price is high right now.

I blame all of us citizens who know this is happening and are complacent.

You complain about people and their spreadsheets, and I believe it is a valid point.

Society in general is getting less and less technical, more and more dependent on others to understand things that we ourselves use every day, from what I observe. This lack of technical understanding isn't just happening in companies, but across all of society.

People that don't know about the technical details get promoted into these responsibilities because there are fewer and fewer technical people even available.


This isn't going to get better, if we continue to buy Chinese. Is not buying Chinese going to teach people to have a more technical understanding of the world? No.

But not buying Chinese might mean we make more stuff at home. Maybe in that case, there will be more technical jobs. Maybe with more technical jobs, there will be more technical people, and a better understanding of how things work. Possibly more people will have ideas to make innovation.

It certainly isn't going to come while veging out in front of our 50" Chinese made TVs.

You seem to have studied the issue, and know a lot about history, and are very knowledgeable. Does that mean that nothing can change for the future, because of the way things were done at Saturn and failed?

That was one attempt you speak of. With anything practice makes perfect. Processes become more efficient with time, and well, practice.

Do you really think that by buying Chinese, it will create innovation here in the US?

What about giving companies time to innovate. That doesn't happen when doors are shuttered, and windows are boarded up when business just close.


Mark :)
 
GENERATORS PEOPLE.. We're talking about generators not world F*****g politics.
 
DMZX +1. His EU2000i is a great generator/inverter. If you want to go one size bigger (bigger is better) see my recommendation below.


Honda makes great generators/inverters. Their inverters create an almost perfect sine wave in laboratory testing. I have their EU6500 IS and it is remarkable. I would recommend one of these generator/inverter units: http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2GG&category=home if you want power that is reliable, clean and able to handle your pellet stove, refrigerator/freezer, computer and maybe your television. Turn off the TV and computer and it will probably light a lamp in each room. Determine your wattage needs, figure how many appliances will be running at one time, and take into account the power surge requirements when the refrig first turns on. Purchase a unit meeting those needs.


Be certain to connect it to your main panel through a UL approved switch.


Honda generators/inverters are a bit pricey but as in most things, the best usually does cost more.

My humble $.02
 
I was really surprised at the current draw of my deep well pump when that started up - I think it was 29 amps (as measured by a clamp on ammeter).
 
Me too. One must size a generator for the starting current loads: deep well pumps, sump pumps, et cetera. My generator runs at about 40% capacity most of the time (the minimum), but it sized to start all of these motors. I was initially a bit concerned about fuel utilization, thinking it would run at a higher % capacity on average but that has not turned out to be the case at all.
 
During a multi-day outage we only ran the bigger generator once a day for less than an hour and made do with the fan-less wood insert. In retrospect, since we also have an 'extra' 5 kw generator ('extra' 'cause it didn't run the well pump!), I think I might use that to keep more comfortable if its cold and still run the bigger one for showers, store water in the bathtubs, etc.

We also have a kerosene heater.

I used to mess around with fuel storage, but came to the conclusion it could be a little dangerous siphoning gas out of the generator, etc. Now I keep gas for the mowers and other stuff but don't go out of my way to store fuel for the generators or kerosene heater, for that matter. My theory is that if something big is heading my way, I'd have time to fill up a couple of 5 gallon cans, or I'd have enough til they get the gas stations running on generator power.
 
WoodPorn said:
GENERATORS PEOPLE.. We're talking about generators not world F*****g politics.

I did get a little off topic, but you can probably relax. There is no need to be hostile. That is the nature of conversations, they flow whichever way they flow. This generator topic has been done again and again, and again.

People were still following along. It wasn't all that bad.

Besides, I was personally done. I went past what I wanted to say which was just simply that there are other options besides Honda. Honda is good for sure, but you can get more power out of less money.

Plus, there is an incentive to buy US generators. If you want to call that world politics go ahead.

Mark
 
mark d fellows said:
WoodPorn said:
GENERATORS PEOPLE.. We're talking about generators not world F*****g politics.

I did get a little off topic, but you can probably relax. There is no need to be hostile. That is the nature of conversations, they flow whichever way they flow. This generator topic has been done again and again, and again.

People were still following along. It wasn't all that bad.

Besides, I was personally done. I went past what I wanted to say which was just simply that there are other options besides Honda. Honda is good for sure, but you can get more power out of less money.

Plus, there is an incentive to buy US generators. If you want to call that world politics go ahead.

Mark

No hostility here, just more interested in the gen topic than what Asia is doing.
-just for the record I have a Generac 10kw.
 
WoodPorn said:
just more interested in the gen topic than what Asia is doing.
Described was a destructive transient that could harm control boards - and would be completely ignored by a surge protector. Other transients generated by a cheap 10Kw generator would destroy a protector and that control board.

Clean electricity must be created by how the generator is designed. Any miracle add on will not solve the original problem - a generator designed to cut costs rather than let designers innovate. Anything a surge protector might do must already be inside the generator - for less money.
 
westom said:
WoodPorn said:
just more interested in the gen topic than what Asia is doing.
Described was a destructive transient that could harm control boards - and would be completely ignored by a surge protector. Other transients generated by a cheap 10Kw generator would destroy a protector and that control board.

Clean electricity must be created by how the generator is designed. Any miracle add on will not solve the original problem - a generator designed to cut costs rather than let designers innovate. Anything a surge protector might do must already be inside the generator - for less money.

Sounds good. What generator brands have this? Must be more than one.

The power company uses rotating generators, not sinewave inverters.
 
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