Got Screwed by Chimeny Liner Company - Need your help please

If you toss a SS liner down a masonry flue and vent a wood appliance through it you must meet one of two conditions.

1) The original masonry flue and chimney structure meet all aspects of the NFPA 211 code book

2) The SS liner system must be installed to meet UL 1777 according to the manufactures instructions. This may allow 0" clearance from the liner to the masonry and 0" clearance from the masonry to combustibles (see mfg instructions for details).

Yours would meet neither of those. No single wall SS liner will typically be safe by itself, you need some sort of insulation (as specified by the mfg instructions) from the smoke chamber all the way to the top.

I am also wondering if you figured out where the smoke smell came from? The uninsulated liner, while not to code or spec, would not directly cause a smoke smell in the house.

...unless it happens to smell like burning pine [framing], and you've got oak in the stove.

cozy heat said:

...unless it happens to smell like burning pine [framing], and you've got oak in the stove.

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That would take one hell of a chimney fire, or one really badly damaged (to the point of near non-existence) masonry chimney.

But a good point nonetheless

JTP10181, Just to be clear, a single wall liner can certainly meet UL 1777 without insulation ONLY if there is the required air gap external to the brick chimney. There isn't likely the air gap required, so then insulation is added to meet UL 1777 at Zero inches to combustibles. UL 1777 is met in either case, one needs insulation, the other needs air gap.

Pilot-werx, we are making an assumption here that the you do not have an inch of air clearance all around your chimney (In the US 1 inch is what I recall NFPA 211 requiring). If your chimney did have the air gap clearance, then uninsulated single wall liner may meet UL 1777 if the rest of the brick structure is sound. Relining a code compliant chimney doesn't need insulation.

That said, You likely don't have a code compliant chimney - most just aren't built that way.

So, you may or may not have a code compliance issue. You DO however have a contract non-compliance issue.

I make the picky hair-splitting distinction to help you to not make statements that aren't correct in a situation where law and contracts are concerned.

The start of Wisdom is calling things by their right names - Chinese proverb

From current Ventinox catalog: "When venting solid fuel heaters, Ventinox VFT must be insulated with either TherMix or ProFoil blankets to meet UL 1777 requirements."

http://www.duravent.com/pdf/catalogs/ventinox10.pdf

I had this whole long post typed out but I clicked something and lost it. If you need more info let me know. If you are a lawyer or something you need to review your information. I have researched this stuff to death, I know what I am talking about.

jtp10181 said:

From current Ventinox catalog: "When venting solid fuel heaters, Ventinox VFT must be insulated with either TherMix or ProFoil blankets to meet UL 1777 requirements."

http://www.duravent.com/pdf/catalogs/ventinox10.pdf

I had this whole long post typed out but I clicked something and lost it. If you need more info let me know. If you are a lawyer or something you need to review your information. I have researched this stuff to death, I know what I am talking about.

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I had seen that, but the instructions for the liners are more specific. They say this:

SDV Liners have been tested and are listed by Underwriters Laboratories, Inc (UL) to UL 1777 and ULC-S636-00 standard at zero clearance to combustibles and for use with
all fuels. When venting wood fired heaters or fireplaces, a minimum of one inch TherMix® or two layers of ceramic blankets are needed to conform to the UL1777 and ULC-S636, zero
clearance listing.
All temperature tests were performed on chimneys featuring a 4” nominal masonry shell and a SDV Liner with or without the specified insulation between the liner and interior of the chimney (no clay tiles). The outside of the chimney was surrounded with a wood enclosure at zero clearance as specified by the standard.

http://www.duravent.com/docs/instruct/L2051_Jan10.pdf

The issue is that insulation is needed for a zero clearance install. UL 1777 isn't a zero clearance spec.

Don't worry, I've done my homework. Your blanket statement that a single wall can't meet UL 1777 just isn't true. It is also not very likely that it can meet it due to the often lacking air gap external to the chimney. I always recommend insulation. In this case, where contracts are being discussed, splitting this hair may be important to the original poster.

I've attached a pic of the clearance to combustibles table from page 6 of the DuraVent flex liner instructions as an example of when insulation isn't required for a single wall liner. Table refers to US clearances.

Did you buy your stove from Maine Stove and Chimney in Sanford? Doug and JJ know their stuff and I believe Doug is the president of the Southern Maine Chimney Sweep Association. I would love to know who ripped you off so I can be sure to steer clear of them.

If the installer was one of the members of this association perhaps a call to one of the officers may help.

http://meacsp.org/members.html

"I hired a company to remove all the tiles and replace them with an insulated ventinox liner."


If they didn't satisfy the contract, take them to small claims court. Of course you don't want to,
but nobody here is going to do it for you.

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

webby3650 said:

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

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I don't think this to be true . . . I'm pretty sure you can call yourself a chimney sweep simply by going to the hardware store and picking up a chimney brush and ladder . . . however a number of folks have banded together to form a group of professionals that are trained and affiliated with national accredited groups . . . in my mind these guys are worth going to.

firefighterjake said:

webby3650 said:

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

Click to expand...

I don't think this to be true . . . I'm pretty sure you can call yourself a chimney sweep simply by going to the hardware store and picking up a chimney brush and ladder . . . however a number of folks have banded together to form a group of professionals that are trained and affiliated with national accredited groups . . . in my mind these guys are worth going to.

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For some sweeps this is true, although, to be CERTIFIED you have to go to the Chimney Institute of America. Some states require this certification, kinda like Plumbing or Electric. It's hard and you have to be serious to complete it.

pilot-werx said:

webby3650 said:

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

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He is a member of the National Chimney Sweep Guild if that means anything. To me, he totally discredits the guild...

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If he is a Guild member, he sure isn't using the training he recieved, sorry to here about this. Have you reported him to CSIA?

webby3650 said:

pilot-werx said:

webby3650 said:

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

Click to expand...

He is a member of the National Chimney Sweep Guild if that means anything. To me, he totally discredits the guild...

Click to expand...

If he is a Guild member, he sure isn't using the training he recieved, sorry to here about this. Have you reported him to CSIA?

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I think I would report this . . . it gives these accrediting organizations a black eye when they have members who do not do professional work and yet are listed as professionals.

webby3650 said:

firefighterjake said:

webby3650 said:

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

Click to expand...

I don't think this to be true . . . I'm pretty sure you can call yourself a chimney sweep simply by going to the hardware store and picking up a chimney brush and ladder . . . however a number of folks have banded together to form a group of professionals that are trained and affiliated with national accredited groups . . . in my mind these guys are worth going to.

Click to expand...

For some sweeps this is true, although, to be CERTIFIED you have to go to the Chimney Institute of America. Some states require this certification, kinda like Plumbing or Electric. It's hard and you have to be serious to complete it.

Click to expand...

True . . . but again . . . here in Maine there is no requirement to be certified . . . myself I only recommend certified professionals when we get a phone call or a resident asks us if we have any recommendations as to who to use.

webby3650 said:

firefighterjake said:

webby3650 said:

Was the company that installed the liner certified? I believe in Maine, installers and sweeps have to be certified. (Others feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

Click to expand...

I don't think this to be true . . . I'm pretty sure you can call yourself a chimney sweep simply by going to the hardware store and picking up a chimney brush and ladder . . . however a number of folks have banded together to form a group of professionals that are trained and affiliated with national accredited groups . . . in my mind these guys are worth going to.

Click to expand...

For some sweeps this is true, although, to be CERTIFIED you have to go to the Chimney Institute of America. Some states require this certification, kinda like Plumbing or Electric. It's hard and you have to be serious to complete it.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's nothing like Electricians or plumbers, at least here in Canada. And anybody can call you CERTIFIED. Heck, Hearth.com could CERTIFY folks if they had an exam and the sweeps felt the certification would be a benefit to selling their services.

Most Journeyman trades are covered by some sort of legislation, and have licences that are issued by the State/Province. The main reason why organisations like WETT Inc (note the Inc part) and CSIA ( a non profit org) exist is because gov't doesn't/ so that gov't won' regulate sweeps and installers like journeyman trades IMHO.

They lobby for good practices, but do so not just for the benevolent good of consumers, but to also keep gov't out of thier hair. They have no legal ability to keep anyone who has passed their exams from doing what they do, even if they don't do it IAW the answerrs they gave on the exams. All they can do is remove certification, and they take a long time to do that.

It's interesting to read this thread juxtaposed with another thread about the old Kent woodstove that is illegal in Oregon. There's one contingent of folks that thinks that regulations and certification stand in the way of personal freedom, and another contingent that believes they can help the unknowledgable from getting burned (so to speak). Is it still possible to have a middle ground in this country...?

DanCorcoran said:

It's interesting to read this thread juxtaposed with another thread about the old Kent woodstove that is illegal in Oregon. There's one contingent of folks that thinks that regulations and certification stand in the way of personal freedom, and another contingent that believes they can help the unknowledgable from getting burned (so to speak). Is it still possible to have a middle ground in this country...?

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Well, in the realm of codes and people giving advice on here, you will usually hear the perfect......

But my comment about the above is simply this - reality is often different that what we quote from the regs! I would guess that a VASTLY larger percentage of chimney liners have been installed with no insulation at all.....let alone insulation where they go through existing flue tiles.

From a practical viewpoint, I cannot imagine much of a problem with a ventinox liner going though even a cracked tile which is surrounded by a decent masonry structure........

As to code, which I certainly try not to give advice contrary to code and instructions and owners manuals, this simple fact remains. ANY code or fire official could probably walk into 95% of houses in the country and find large lists of things which do not meet one code or another!

Some if it is semantics. Other parts are practicality. There may be little of no room inside a tile to put insulation and a liner.

In short, many "in the field" jobs become compromises of one sort or another. The real questions here are:
1. Is it safe?
2. Does it contribute to any major problem which is occurring?
3. Were you charged for more than you got?

As to the first two, it seems from afar that your problem(s) have little to do with the liner not being insulated down there.

But if they priced out the liner and insulation, it is done "per foot" and they owned you either a refund or an explanation when they did it (which most homeowners would accept)......

So it appears, at minimum, you have a claim against them for the installed cost of insulation and what it would have cost to remove those tiles.

I'll leave it up to you and others as to whether you think you need to seek other remedies.

Very well said!