Calm my fears before buying first insert

ponder85 · Oct 16, 2010

Hello all.
I've been lurking this site for a couple of weeks now. I'm 25, owned my home for almost 3.5 years, and have decided to start using my fireplace. As a kid, my parents always burned fires in theirs, and I always enjoyed it. They didn't have any type of insert, but they had blowers that put out lots of heat.

As mentioned, I have a fireplace in my home. I don't think its a prefab, but it was added after my home was built (the brick on the chimney and the fireplace itself do not match the the exterior of the home). My chimney is on the exterior of my home.

I am planning to buy a buck model 20. It's a couple miles up the road from me. Its 12 yrs old, in good condition, and I know the people selling it (they own the tax service that do my taxes). My chimney (roughly 11"x11" inside) has recently been cleaned and inspected by a local chimney sweep.

The stove has has an attachment for a 6" liner (forgive me, I don't know exactly what this is called). I've been looking around on ebay and was thinking about purchasing this: http://cgi.ebay.com/6-x-25-Simpson-...472?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518dac3230 It's a 6" duraflex, by simpson liner. I have also found the article on this site about making a block off plate, which I intend to do.

This installation seems pretty straight forward. Remove damper (held on by a single bolt), make and insert block off plate, drop liner in chimney, insert buck model 20 into fireplace, attach liner, done. What am I missing? I'm fairly strong and handy, and have a buddy who runs his dad's framing crew that is willing to help for some beer. One problem I will encounter is getting the liner through the opening for the damper, which is slightly less than 6". I've read that I should be able to ovalize the liner at this part, before putting it in.

I have a few questions that I've searched for, but cannot find the answers to. How do I clean my liner? Will I need to remove the insert each time? How much does a 25'x6" liner weigh? I assume I will attach this at the top of the chimney, and it will hang there? Do I really need to insulate it? From what I've found, the codes do not call for this, but I would like to make this as safe as possible.

Is there anything else I'm missing?

Thank you in advance for any helpful feedback!

firefighterjake · Oct 19, 2010

Bump . . . don't have the answers, but this new member deserves to have some fears allayed by someone who does have some answers.

philaphire · Oct 19, 2010

Is your chimney lined with terracotta tiles? Prefab chimneys are steel not masonry.

Don't ovalize your liner! Cut that damper plate so that the liner can slide through. Liners are VERY light, just awkward to handle something that is 25' long. The kit should come with a top plate that will secure the liner at the top. Can you access the stove outlet by moving some firebricks in the baffle? If so, then you should be able to just sweep your liner from the top and have the debris fall into the stove to be scooped out later with no need to remove insert.

Since you have an external chimney, insulation is a good idea for better draft which means better performance.

Have you done a search for installations? There are many stories posted here along with pictures that should give you some great insight. Here's one:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10193/

Best wishes and BE SAFE!

krex1010 · Oct 19, 2010

I would definitely recommend insulating your liner, it improves your stoves performance and more importantly it makes wood burning safer by keeping your flue warmer which reduces creosote deposits, which decreases the risk of a chimney fire, and chimney fires are no joke.
Don't ovalize your liner if you can avoid it. You are planning on installing a block of plate so while you are in there just use a reciprocating saw and cut out your damper.
Back to insulating the liner, I didn't have enough space in my chimney for a wrap so I used a poured insulation, which is more work but it costs less than the wraps. And I know a chimney sweep who swears the poured insulation is better than the wraps. I am not an expert by any means but don't skimp on safety, never take the "it will probably be ok" attitude. If money is an issue then save until you can afford to do it right.
Anyways this forum is a great resource, there are some really sharp guys in here and they give some good advice, I got alot of help from the guys here when I decided to go with wood heat.
Good luck

Pagey · Oct 19, 2010

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I think the issue with insulating vs. not insulating the liner really comes down to this: if the masonry flue is fully up to code and passes inspection, insulation is not REQUIRED. However, if I recall correctly, most masonry flues are NOT up to code or it cannot be determined if they are in fact up to code, so they get an insulated liner.

krex1010 · Oct 19, 2010

Pagey said:
Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I think the issue with insulating vs. not insulating the liner really comes down to this: if the masonry flue is fully up to code and passes inspection, insulation is not REQUIRED. However, if I recall correctly, most masonry flues are NOT up to code or it cannot be determined if they are in fact up to code, so they get an insulated liner.

I was told by every salesman that I did not have to insulate my liner, they like to give that option because it lowers the price so it makes their estimates more attractive. In my area i believe that if the masonry chimney is not up to code then you are required only to have a liner, as opposed to a direct connect, however I have a friend who is a chimney guy and he really insisted that insulation is always a good idea.

vvvv · Oct 19, 2010

insulated liner @ 25' can result in overfiring of stove. Cold exterior chimni should have a liner & dead air insulates some. I'd drop the liner & try it uninsulated. If its inadequate, u can pour vermiculite later 4 insulation....check with codeman

ponder85 · Oct 20, 2010

Jake,
Thanks for the bump!

philaphire said:
Is your chimney lined with terracotta tiles? Prefab chimneys are steel not masonry.

Don't ovalize your liner! Cut that damper plate so that the liner can slide through. Liners are VERY light, just awkward to handle something that is 25' long. The kit should come with a top plate that will secure the liner at the top. Can you access the stove outlet by moving some firebricks in the baffle? If so, then you should be able to just sweep your liner from the top and have the debris fall into the stove to be scooped out later with no need to remove insert.

Since you have an external chimney, insulation is a good idea for better draft which means better performance.

Have you done a search for installations? There are many stories posted here along with pictures that should give you some great insight. Here's one:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10193/

Best wishes and BE SAFE!

This is going to sound like a very stupid question, but how can I tell for sure if it's a prefab? I don't think it is. I've done a google search, but didn't come up with a "for sure" way to tell. If a picture or two would help anyone more knowledgeable than myself than I'll get some.

I'm not sure about being able to access the stove outlet by moving firebricks. The stove I was looking at got sold out from under me

. That's something I'll keep in mind when searching for one. I'm still checking craigslist daily. I found one tonight that I'm going to call on tomorrow.

Two questions:
1) is the liner I posted http://cgi.ebay.com/6-x-25-Simpson-...472?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518dac3230 a decent liner?
2) Is this installation as straight forward as I laid out in my first post? Have I missed anything?

Your guys' help is VERY much appreciated!

philaphire · Oct 20, 2010

See attached pics of a masonry chimney with terracotta tile lining and a prefab steel chimney. In either case, you should have your chimney inspected by a respected sweep.

I know that Simpson is a good brand name, but the description doesn't mention it being made of 316ti stainless steel which is recommended. It's a titanium reinforced stainless steel and I just don't know anything about Nickel-Chromium Stainless Steel. I purchased my liner from here: http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/index.html

The installation is fairly straightforward however, you didn't mention: insulating the block off plate, using stove cement at the stove collar to liner, using high temp silicone for the plate at the chimney cap, making sure the stove you buy if used doesn't have any cracks, any broken or missing fire bricks, a "dollar tight" gasket seal, etc.

Have you used the search function and read up on others' installations and experiences?

ponder85 · Oct 20, 2010

philaphire said:
See attached pics of a masonry chimney with terracotta tile lining and a prefab steel chimney. In either case, you should have your chimney inspected by a respected sweep.

I know that Simpson is a good brand name, but the description doesn't mention it being made of 316ti stainless steel which is recommended. It's a titanium reinforced stainless steel and I just don't know anything about Nickel-Chromium Stainless Steel. I purchased my liner from here: http://www.chimneylinerinc.com/index.html

The installation is fairly straightforward however, you didn't mention: insulating the block off plate, using stove cement at the stove collar to liner, using high temp silicone for the plate at the chimney cap, making sure the stove you buy if used doesn't have any cracks, any broken or missing fire bricks, a "dollar tight" gasket seal, etc.

Have you used the search function and read up on others' installations and experiences?

Mind is definitely the masonry chimney. It was recently inspected and swept.

I'm glad you pointed out things I did not mention. Those are things I did not realize I need to do. Not 100% sure what "Dollar tight" means, but it seems self explanatory.

I'll be checking out other's installations and experiences.

burleymike · Oct 20, 2010

You can post a couple pictures of your fireplace or call the inspector who checked out you fireplace/chimney and ask him if it is site built or pre fab. I bought my insert and liner from dynamitebuys.com. You might email or call him and see if you can do better than the Ebay listing. Simpson makes good liners IIRC they make both 304L and 316Ti both are fine for wood burning.

philaphire · Oct 20, 2010

gasket dollar test: place a dollar in between stove and door and close door. If the dollar can be slipped out, you need to replace the gasket. A bad gasket will produce too much draft and becomes an overfire hazard

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Calm my fears before buying first insert

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