Stainless Steel Combustors - any opinions???

fire_man · Oct 28, 2010

With the Woodstock guys moving from ceramic to stainless converters, I'm wondering what opinions are out there?

Do they really let you engage sooner?
Are they immune to thermal shock?
Do they clog with fly ash easier or harder? (I've heard both schools of thought, some say the sharp edges "cut" the ash and prevent clogging, others say the narrower cells promote it and you have to clean more often)

I seem to remember some previous posts with negative reviews. I had trouble finding some of these old posts.

Todd · Oct 28, 2010

Only complaint I've heard of so far is some warpage but I think that may be due to stove design (VC). Other than that I think it's a good thing.

wood-engineer · Oct 28, 2010

I bought a steel cat from Condar for my VC Encore. I wasn't impressed. Judging from temperature across the unit (i have thermometers on the inlet & outlet), it was no more efficient than the ceramic. Additionally, it did not handle high temperatures very well. There is no way steel can come close to handling temperatures that ceramic can. After a short time (1 season), its efficiency degraded to almost zero.

I ended up sending it back in exchange for ceramic unit.

Slow1 · Oct 28, 2010

Talking to a couple of the guys at the WS open house they seemed quite pleased with the SS combusters. I'm eager to try one out but wasn't eager enough to buy one before mine needs to be replaced. I did get out of it that you can engage at a lower temperature and that is the main performance improvement that we should expect from them. As to to degradation over time due to thermal shock/potassium/whatever they should be more resistant to this as well.

It would be nice to engage a few minutes sooner - the startup is the dirtiest stage of the burn cycle after all. I'm still tempted to get one, but as I told my wife - if I get the new stove next year it will come with new SS combusters too so I may as well save my $'s for that.

Backwoods Savage · Oct 28, 2010

Yes, talking about this to the Woodstock guys was good. I was told you can engage the cat at 200 degree stove top rather than 250 which could make a big difference in burning less wood. I was told that cleaning will be the same and they've not noticed a difference. Everyone seemed to agree the new ones will outlast the ceramic but that is also tempered by the statement that they just do not know for sure. Producer seems to think 10 years but nobody has used them that long so it is a wait and see matter.

Like Slow, I'd like to give one a try but not willing to shell out the dollars as long as mine works good. Replacement time then I will get one. They are $125.

fjord · Oct 28, 2010

Our VC Encore 2550 is coming onto its 10th birthday; run hard as primary heat (no backup). The ceramic cat has been replaced every 2+ years ( the ~ 12,000 hour life as speced) bought at Sud Chemie (Corning) in Norwood, Mass.
They offered their new SS cat at the same replacement price as the older ceramic last Fall 2009. In the one season it has done very well ( the cat is checked and cleaned ~ 1/season and in the fall). Note that last winter for us
was mild and short. No breakdown, no deformation, no cracking as with the ceramic cats.

fire_man · Oct 28, 2010

Slow1 said:
Talking to a couple of the guys at the WS open house they seemed quite pleased with the SS combusters. I'm eager to try one out but wasn't eager enough to buy one before mine needs to be replaced. I did get out of it that you can engage at a lower temperature and that is the main performance improvement that we should expect from them. As to to degradation over time due to thermal shock/potassium/whatever they should be more resistant to this as well.

It would be nice to engage a few minutes sooner - the startup is the dirtiest stage of the burn cycle after all. I'm still tempted to get one, but as I told my wife - if I get the new stove next year it will come with new SS combusters too so I may as well save my $'s for that.

I'm thinking the same way - wait for the new stove before putting too much more into this one. I wonder if the two cats in the new stove are the same one as the FIreview? I forgot to ask Woodstock. I was surprised when they told me the expected burn time was 10 hrs, since that's what the Fireview is rated at and the new stove has a 50% bigger firebox. I think the cats in the new stove should last longer than normal since they clean up after the secondary burn manifold - at least that's how I understood it.

Backwoods Savage · Oct 29, 2010

A slightly less burn time but a whole lot more heat during that time. Where the cats are located I do not see how they would be the same as the ones in the Fireview.

Slow1 · Oct 29, 2010

Backwoods Savage said:
A slightly less burn time but a whole lot more heat during that time. Where the cats are located I do not see how they would be the same as the ones in the Fireview.

I agree - the design of the new stove appears to be to fill the "we like the FV but need more heat" niche. So - if it gets similar burn time but puts out more heat it needs to have a larger firebox to hold more total BTUs eh? And of course real world options may be interesting to play with given that it has both burn tubes and cat(s).

I don't expect that the cats will be the same design as the FV either but perhaps for a different reason - it seems that the folks at WS are very careful with their designs and do a good job of engineering things (over-engineering?). Thus I would expect that since they are designing the stove with the SS cats in mind they are more likely to optimize whatever they can around these cats.

However we are digressing here...

Redburn · Oct 29, 2010

I had a condor didn't work out that well for me.... warped bad went back to ceramic. I think the steal has to be thicker.

jharkin · Oct 29, 2010

I also bought a Condar Steelcat for my VC Encore last year. I have not had any problems with it and even after hitting 2000F for a few minutes accidentailly once last year its still appears in decent shape. There is no visible warping and its still lights off just fine. I cant make an educated comparison to ceramic however as the old catalyst was likely original to the stove when I inherited it (i.e. 10 years old).

Wood-engineer, how did you get a second temp probe before the cat? Did you drill a second hole through the backplate at the top?

wood-engineer · Oct 29, 2010

On the Encore 2550, you can drill a 1/4" hole about 4" above the existing temp probe hole. On my stove, that is just on top of the nameplate.

The dual probes are a very good way to periodically verify the efficiency of the cat. It correlates well with smoke observations from the stack.

KevinG · Oct 29, 2010

I bought a used Fireview 205 that I'm in the processing of painting and installing in my old farmhouse. The cat looked like this when i bought it. So I bought a new SS cat. Due to the coating it looks brown and the holes appear much smaller.

Time to drill that 8" hole in the brick wall and get the stove installed. Indian Summer this week but that isn't going to last.

Todd · Oct 29, 2010

Slow1 said:
Backwoods Savage said:

A slightly less burn time but a whole lot more heat during that time. Where the cats are located I do not see how they would be the same as the ones in the Fireview.

Click to expand...

I agree - the design of the new stove appears to be to fill the "we like the FV but need more heat" niche. So - if it gets similar burn time but puts out more heat it needs to have a larger firebox to hold more total BTUs eh? And of course real world options may be interesting to play with given that it has both burn tubes and cat(s).

I don't expect that the cats will be the same design as the FV either but perhaps for a different reason - it seems that the folks at WS are very careful with their designs and do a good job of engineering things (over-engineering?). Thus I would expect that since they are designing the stove with the SS cats in mind they are more likely to optimize whatever they can around these cats.

However we are digressing here...

I think the new stove with a short 10 hour burn time would suck. Sounds like a large non cat burn time with a cat there to clean up any left over emissions. I was hoping for 16-20. I would rather be able to crank it up for a high output or turn it down for a low and slow burn as needed.

fire_man · Oct 29, 2010

KevinG said:
I bought a used Fireview 205 that I'm in the processing of painting and installing in my old farmhouse. The cat looked like this when i bought it. So I bought a new SS cat. Due to the coating it looks brown and the holes appear much smaller.

Time to drill that 8" hole in the brick wall and get the stove installed. Indian Summer this week but that isn't going to last.

KevinG: Wow that's one dirty cat! thanks for posting the picture. The last owner was either burning really wet wood that smoldered or just never bothered to clean it. I don't see any cracks, it just looks really plugged. Please let us know what you think about the SS cat, but since you just bought the FV I guess you cannot compare it to how it previously burned.

Highbeam · Oct 29, 2010

Todd said:
Slow1 said:

Backwoods Savage said:

A slightly less burn time but a whole lot more heat during that time. Where the cats are located I do not see how they would be the same as the ones in the Fireview.

Click to expand...

I agree - the design of the new stove appears to be to fill the "we like the FV but need more heat" niche. So - if it gets similar burn time but puts out more heat it needs to have a larger firebox to hold more total BTUs eh? And of course real world options may be interesting to play with given that it has both burn tubes and cat(s).

I don't expect that the cats will be the same design as the FV either but perhaps for a different reason - it seems that the folks at WS are very careful with their designs and do a good job of engineering things (over-engineering?). Thus I would expect that since they are designing the stove with the SS cats in mind they are more likely to optimize whatever they can around these cats.

However we are digressing here...

Click to expand...

I think the new stove with a short 10 hour burn time would suck. Sounds like a large non cat burn time with a cat there to clean up any left over emissions. I was hoping for 16-20. I would rather be able to crank it up for a high output or turn it down for a low and slow burn as needed.

I'm with you Todd, a 10 hour burn time would be a failure on the part of Woodstock's design team. As in, go back to the drawing board. This is a cat stove with cat stove tradeoffs, a pro being long low burn times and miserly use of wood.

Slow1 · Oct 30, 2010

I'm not getting too excited one way or the other about any estimates on burn time for the new stove. Until something is published it is all speculation. Whatever then is published will be conservative I'm sure and again - who's definition of "burn time" are they going to use (shall we open up THAT discussion again???). If they use the same definitions as the FV we all know that many of us have confidence that we get longer 'burn time' than what the FV is rated for during the shoulder season - I imagine it would be rather safe to assume the same with the new stove (perhaps even magnified due to larger firebox?). Time will tell - It is too early in the development cycle to either celebrate or morn the specs of this new stove.

Todd · Oct 30, 2010

Your right Slow1, but it's still fun to discuss it.

fire_man · Oct 30, 2010

I'm with Todd, fun to discuss. Another point, I don't see how they can get this stove to burn like a cat and a non-cat without controlling the airflow with a thermostat (like the Blaze King). The cat's personality wants just a little air, the burn manifold wants lots of air - and the user does not want to be watching for the cross over. I forgot to ask at the BBQ if the prototype had a thermostat, I was so exited just to see it that I forgot to ask a few questions.I wish they would update the stove blog on their website. And I was bummed I did not win the free stove!

BTW, I replaced the two year old cat in my FV yesterday and holy crow it burns like a new stove now. The new cat glows brightly within a few minutes after I engage at 250 stove top, the smoke exiting the chimney is almost non existent and the stove top temp climbs much faster. The old cat did not glow till temp hit over 450 and I was choking on the outdoor air. I was burning some poorly seasoned wood the first year, so I think that's what did my cat in.

Backwoods Savage · Oct 30, 2010

Gee Tony, you wouldn't even buy my vest, so I'm not surprised that you didn't win the stove.

KevinG · Oct 30, 2010

fire_man said:
KevinG said:

I bought a used Fireview 205 that I'm in the processing of painting and installing in my old farmhouse. The cat looked like this when i bought it. So I bought a new SS cat. Due to the coating it looks brown and the holes appear much smaller.

Time to drill that 8" hole in the brick wall and get the stove installed. Indian Summer this week but that isn't going to last.

Click to expand...

KevinG: Wow that's one dirty cat! thanks for posting the picture. The last owner was either burning really wet wood that smoldered or just never bothered to clean it. I don't see any cracks, it just looks really plugged. Please let us know what you think about the SS cat, but since you just bought the FV I guess you cannot compare it to how it previously burned.

Prior owner was definitely burning very green wood. There are creosote streaks under the loading door and all across the bottom stone on the back of the stove! There were a few holes in the topside of the cat as well.

By comparison, here's a pic of the new cat. I won't know how it compares but if it's as least as good as the ceramic cat's, I'll be happy.

Todd · Oct 30, 2010

Looks like that new steel cat has a lot more surface area or more holes than the ceramic cats. Prolly a good thing?

fire_man · Oct 30, 2010

The SS cat looks like it has air conditioner-shaped fins instead of individual cells, which I guess makes sense. I'll be really curious how these SS cats work out, but the WS guys seemed really excited about them.

Todd · Oct 30, 2010

Definitely better burn dry wood with those new cats or they look like they will plug up fast.

Backwoods Savage · Oct 30, 2010

Good point Todd.

Stainless Steel Combustors - any opinions???

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