warmboard or =

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flyingcow

flyingcow

Minister of Fire
Jun 4, 2008
2,563
northern-half of maine
Plan or ripping up 12x14 bedroom floor rug and replacing it with Pergo style floor. Would like to put radiant floor down. Considering ripping up 1st layer(5/8?) of subfloor and putting in a warmboard type flooring. Looking for warmboard or it's =. Any sugesstions?

I can install staple up underneath floor, which i have in kitchen. But would like to experiment with a Warmboard type of product. Would like to have the radiant close to living space as possible. I know it's got possibilities of being a PITA ripping up subfloor.

Any thoughts on this project and type of materials to use?
 
You can pretty much get the same result with wooden sleepers that have the PEX in between them.
The foil on Warmboard is not that thick and IMHO, is not that effective.
It is a function of heat load and water temperature, but if you were running the floor at the same temp as your baseboards,
and the spacing was 6" OC, I am guessing you would be in pretty good shape.

A good way to get an educated guess is to take the lineal footage of the baseboard (I am assuming that is what is there now) and multiply
that by 700 btus/lf. The radiant floor is going to deliver something on the order of 30 btu's per square foot.
The radiant floor output should close to the current heaters. It should also be on a separate zone.
 
Conduction is the best transfer by far. The tube needs to touch the floor and aluminun really helps with the connection and spread. Here are some infrared pic I took when I researched the transfer difference.

You can see where I routered thru the aluminum on the Warmboard and how it stopped the heat transfer.

Warmboard is a structural panel and I'm not sure how retrofit-able it would be/ Look into the Roth, Viega or Uponor "dry" over the top systems also.

Here is a link to a good article on plateless systems.


www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/c3f68c312dfc7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
 

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Unfortunately there is not a thermograph of a room side sleepered system, where the tubing is on the room side. With tubing 5.5" OC, I think the fins are a lot less important.
Tubing is inexpensive and the closer spacing will mitigate a lot of the need for aluminum.

The Warmfloor looks hotter because it is not conducting through a subfloor. The fins certainly help in the Warmboard case since it is 12"OC (I think?).
There has been a lot of work in Europe where tubing is 3" OC. The closer tubing is spaced, the higher the heat output and/or the lower the operating temps can be.

I am skeptical of the cost benefit of the Warmboard. We used a similar product for some TV programs where we did radiant systems. It was fun to use but I cannot cozy up to the cost, especially IF you want to do an inexpensive DIY system.

By all means Warmboard is nice stuff. I think all the competing products will perform similarly. I would shop price and Google for competing products.
 
Tom in Maine said:
You can pretty much get the same result with wooden sleepers that have the PEX in between them.
The foil on Warmboard is not that thick and IMHO, is not that effective.
It is a function of heat load and water temperature, but if you were running the floor at the same temp as your baseboards,
and the spacing was 6" OC, I am guessing you would be in pretty good shape.

A good way to get an educated guess is to take the lineal footage of the baseboard (I am assuming that is what is there now) and multiply
that by 700 btus/lf. The radiant floor is going to deliver something on the order of 30 btu's per square foot.
The radiant floor output should close to the current heaters. It should also be on a separate zone.
Click to expand...

I have to keep my staple up in my kitchen(ceramic tile) about 135/140 to be effective. But i have not insulated underneath the staple up Wirsbo, yet.

If I do the "warmboard", i plan on tying into the Wirsbo mainfold. I appreciate the formula for figuring out the conversion from my baseboard.

Tom, a question. If I install staple up under my floor, instead of a "warm board or sleeper style of floor, which would you do if it was you. especially figuring in the PITA of tearing up one layer of subfloor. Would there be that much of a diff in utilizing my heat storage? Hopefully that question made sense.

My kitchen only accounts for 25% of first floor area. If installed staple up, and insulated underneath the other 75% of floor space, I should be able to lower the temps form 135/140 to maybe 125ish?

Thanks for the reply's
 
I have to keep my staple up in my kitchen(ceramic tile) about 135/140 to be effective. But i have not insulated underneath the staple up Wirsbo, yet.

If I do the "warmboard", i plan on tying into the Wirsbo mainfold. I appreciate the formula for figuring out the conversion from my baseboard.

Tom, a question. If I install staple up under my floor, instead of a "warm board or sleeper style of floor, which would you do if it was you. especially figuring in the PITA of tearing up one layer of subfloor. Would there be that much of a diff in utilizing my heat storage? Hopefully that question made sense.

My kitchen only accounts for 25% of first floor area. If installed staple up, and insulated underneath the other 75% of floor space, I should be able to lower the temps form 135/140 to maybe 125ish?



Phil,

If you are getting away with 135/140 without insulating, you are doing very well. Please, insulate the floor. Unless you want to heat your basement, you are probably getting more heat into the basement than upstairs. Have you used this during a winter without insulation under the floor?

I think it is almost impossible to get a staple up system in Northern Maine to work in the 125F range. I could be very wrong, but from my experience, most staple up systems only start to work reasonably well at 140F. The Warmboard system or room side radiant floor will let you run with lower temps, which is desirable with a thermal storage system.

Another option is to look at radiant panels.

It is extremely critical to have your radiant floor, especially a staple up floor, insulated.
 
Warmboard is 1 1/8" thick, not good for a retrofit.
For a above floor retrofit I've used Uponor quick trak a few times, Its only 1/2" thick and uses 5/16" pex tubing which ends up being spaced 7" oc if I recall correctly.
 
Tarmsolo60 said:
Warmboard is 1 1/8" thick, not good for a retrofit.
For a above floor retrofit I've used Uponor quick trak a few times, Its only 1/2" thick and uses 5/16" pex tubing which ends up being spaced 7" oc if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll look into it.
 
Tom In Maine,
I've run the staple up for too many yrs, without insulation, for me to mention. I've got a couple of rolls of 4" F/G which i will be installing this wknd. I was going to leave about 2" between floor and insulation. In your experience, would that be an OK distance? What would you recommend?
 
Fiberglass is not the material of choice, but 4" will work better than what you have right now and it will work well.

Leaving a space between the tubing and the fiberglass is not a problem, but you can install it within a half inch or so.
 
Tarmsolo60 said:
Warmboard is 1 1/8" thick, not good for a retrofit.
Click to expand...
We had this stuff installed 18 months ago in our kitchen and new family room. We had to demo down to the floor joists so the thickness of the product was not a big deal. The contactor but down Pex-Al-Pex in the grooves. It was then covered with T&G harwood flooring and finished in place. It provides a warm gentle heat that the cats, the dog and the kids all love. I especially like walking on the warm floor with bare feet. There is no noticeable temperature differential across the floor. It is all just gently warm. This installation also has only tiny expansion noises, much quieter than our old hot water radiator system.
 
Chris Fallis said:
Tarmsolo60 said:
Warmboard is 1 1/8" thick, not good for a retrofit.
Click to expand...
We had this stuff installed 18 months ago in our kitchen and new family room. We had to demo down to the floor joists so the thickness of the product was not a big deal. The contactor but down Pex-Al-Pex in the grooves. It was then covered with T&G harwood flooring and finished in place. It provides a warm gentle heat that the cats, the dog and the kids all love. I especially like walking on the warm floor with bare feet. There is no noticeable temperature differential across the floor. It is all just gently warm. This installation also has only tiny expansion noises, much quieter than our old hot water radiator system.
Click to expand...
Warmboard is a great product, just finished about 6000 sq ft installation on a new project. Nothing wrong with 1/2" thick quick trak for a thinner above floor or even some extruded aluminum joist trak plates for underfloor and lower supply temps.
 
I will have to learn more about warmboard so can't comment on it at all, but I have staple up in half of my house, under plush carpet and I love it. I did insulate under it with bubble reflective and fiberglass.
My only complaint would be the noise when starting up, I can tell it is moving along the plastic staples. This could be improved with a system that adjust water temp instead of only cycling a pump on and off.

I can run my temps at 100 degrees on 20 degree weather and get more than enough heat. I do manually turn up the water temp as the outside temp gets closer to zero.

Meanwhile I did buy aluminum flatplates for the next half of my house install.
 
What does the foam underlayment on a a Pergo type floor do to the heat transfer and inversely, what does the heat do to the foam underlayment? Anybody know?
 
with a staple up you need to watch the supply temperatures. Most engineered woods, like plywood, wafer, laminate flooring need to have temperatures below 140F from what I have learned. Above that the glues start to squirm. Same would apply to the foam underlayment, ask the manufacturer for temperature limits.

I would do everything possible to use the lowest possible supply temperature to meet the heat load. This usually involves transfer plates either above or below the sunflooring. I prefer the over the top products to avoid driving the energy through the subflooring.

Low fluid temperatures allow you to really maximize your buffer tank, driving it down to the lowest possible temperature. This extends your tank supplied run time and maximizes the boiler efficiency by returning the lowest possible temperature to the boiler.

With direct conduction products either below or above there is no need for reflective insulation, or the air space. Some installers actually spray foam the joist bay with transfer plates.

Pay a lot of attention to the insulation detail at the rim joist. This is a high heat loss area and should be spray foamed to seal up any infiltration (drafts) Fiberglass batts are fine as long as you seal up the area with a layer of spray foam first, especially where the plate contacts the foundation.

I would suggest at least an R-19 batt under a heated floor, maybe more if the space below is un-heated. insulation is the gift that keeps giving.

hr
 
I don't see a big issue with the foam behind Pergo. I would definitely check with them before using it.
 
barnartist said:
I will have to learn more about warmboard so can't comment on it at all, but I have staple up in half of my house, under plush carpet and I love it. I did insulate under it with bubble reflective and fiberglass.
My only complaint would be the noise when starting up, I can tell it is moving along the plastic staples. This could be improved with a system that adjust water temp instead of only cycling a pump on and off.

I can run my temps at 100 degrees on 20 degree weather and get more than enough heat. I do manually turn up the water temp as the outside temp gets closer to zero.

Meanwhile I did buy aluminum flatplates for the next half of my house install.
Click to expand...

I have the aluminum plates, no noise on start up. But also keep in mind, my staple up does not shut off until late March. Cold weather and winter is from November to April up here.
 
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