My Magic Heat Reveiw

Ducky · Nov 4, 2010

Hello all. I posted here once before but, havent in years. I often refer here for guidance and know that many of you do not care for the Magic Heat appliance.

First off, I am heating my garage with Wood. with a Vermont Castings Vigilant from 1977. I got it free from a cousin after my father passed away. My garage is quite large, with no interior walls except for a 'mans' bathroom (2200 sq ft)

National Fuel, who became one big gigantic pain in my ass the first year I ran the stove, forced me to tell them that unless they come take their meter (this was after 6 calls over 2 months to turn off the gas) that if they dont remove the meter (they were charging me $20 a month rent for their meter) that I would go out the next day, and physically cut the meter off my building with my sawzall... amazingly, with in 2 hrs a guy was here to lock the meter

so... I began burning wood as my primary heat source in 2007... so 4 years, this will be my 4th year. I got the stove, the pipe the whole thing free. (i was majorly short on cash) from my cousin...

I had researched far and wide of way to maximize the heat output of my stove, as that was my primary heat source...

box fans, blowing at the stove, cieling fan running blah blah blah.

ok, so... after 3 years I came to the conclusion that my stove, was too small for the area that I am heating. it kept the shop at like 60F 65F if I got out of bed, and cranked it all day...

60F for a working shop is kinda chilly... Dad kept it at 65F, and when working on a car, near the floor... it was cold lol I know I am lucky, but still complaining...

I bought a much larger stove on CL, and it came with a Magic Heat box... which, for PURE experiment, I set it on top of the stove (not in the pipe) and was FLOORED by the heat which it put out just by sitting atop the pipe.

So, I decided to buy a Magic Heat for my pipe size (6inch) Now I know that my stove should have 8inch, but it came with a reducer, 4 sections of black pipe 2 sections of double wall and cap - free, all i had to buy was the roof kit...

so since i am poor... I kept the 6inch pipe, and bought my box for the 6inch pipe...

ok, so... after 4hrs, with a friend of mine, we got it installed...

Let me say that I do not need a larger stove.

the heat this sucker puts out is AMAZING.

also, creosote build up... I clean my pipe once a year, and the creosote is like crunchy burnt powdery stuff. I have never seen the sticky goo I have seen on this site from my stove.

So... right now I got my stove running... with the Magic Heat box in the pipe, and the extra box sitting atop the stove, and as of right now, my shop, is 72F with an outside temp of 40F... thats a first, in my lifetime, and I scored big this year as I got all my wood for free =D

Backwoods Savage · Nov 5, 2010

Welcome to the forum Ducky. You are definitely in the minority on this gadget. If it works for you, good for you. I'll still not recommend them.

73blazer · Nov 5, 2010

I don't think anyone questions that fact that they put out decent amount of heat.
The concern, I thought, was always the cooling of the flue and the creosote that effect creates in the flue above the unit, that, and it makes it somewhat more challenging to clean the flue, depending on setup of course.

Everyone has their opinions, so long as you keep your flue clean, and with the unit that may mean more regular cleaning, but if your vigilant about keeping the flue clean, I don't see much of a problem in running them.

A cabin I goto sometimes w/ a buddy of mine, it's a hunting cabin that like 10 guys own (I'm not one of them), it's fairly large, it has one of these on a 1960's Wards stove and it really cranks the heat. I actually experimented with the MH on and with it off, different days, outside temp within a couple degrees, and MH on is far better at heating the place than with not running it. That flue is cleaned every time someone goes up there though and it's straight and easy.

BrotherBart · Nov 5, 2010

I seriously question whether the thing heats any better than just having a blower on the stove. And really am concerned about the part of the MH manual that instructs what to do to keep from frying the electronics in a power failure. I can't always schedule when to be standing there when the power goes out.

And then we get to the part about cleaning the sote out of it...

pen · Nov 5, 2010

The name says it all:

mag·ic
–noun
1.
the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic.
2.
the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.

Sorry, but w/ today's EPA standards there isn't much waste going up the chimney other than what is absolutely necessary to maintain a clean chimney and adequate draft so that the secondaries in the stove have enough draft to operate.

In summation: If you have an old school / wasteful stove that you burn good wood in and run HOT, and / or a new one that you run walnuts to the wall because it is too small for your space, then this will gain you extra heat and probably not cause you any trouble. However, in normal cases with a modern stove, this is simply ridiculous. I went from 5 to 5.5 cords of wood w/ my old fisher down to no more than 4 cords of wood to heat my less than efficient 1960's home from from my basement w/ wood for a year w/ no supplemental heat. If you think you can really do much better than that with some "magic", then you are simply fooling yourself.

pen

Battenkiller · Nov 5, 2010

I'm really concerned about the thing turning on at 150ºF and off at 110º. So that means the max flue temp you'll ever see is 150º? That ain't gonna provide much draft, particularly in warmer weather, where you might then only have as little as a 50º temperature differential between the average stack temperature and the outside air.

Plus, your pipe will always be cool enough for water generated by combustion to condense on the flue walls. There is an enormous amount of water generated by burning even the very driest of wood. Oxygen combines with the hydrogen atoms in your wood to form new water that was never there in the first place. Over half a pound of water for every pound of dry wood is actually created by the chemical reactions involved in burning, so you can never escape the water problem. A big part of safe burning is keeping flue temps high enough so all this water (plus the water that was still present in the seasoned wood) escapes from the top of the stack as water vapor without condensing back into liquid water. Condensation plus smoke equals liquid creosote on your flue pipe walls. Period.

I'm not trying to suggest you do anything different, it's your life, but there are some very good reasons why lowering stack temps is not a desirable thing, and why we are against them by and large. As BB said, you can probably get the same amount of extra heat by using a fan on your stove and giving it more air, and do it a lot safer with a vastly cleaner burn. We all pollute the air a bit no matter how we try and how great our stove is, but the idea is to do your part and contribute as little to despoiling the air as possible. It's these sorts of practices that led to the EPA regulations in the first place. If we don't pitch in and do our part, they may someday ban the practice of wood heating altogether.

Sorry for the rant. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

branchburner · Nov 5, 2010

pen said:
Sorry, but w/ today's EPA standards there isn't much waste going up the chimney other than what is absolutely necessary to maintain a clean chimney and adequate draft so that the secondaries in the stove have enough draft to operate.

I'm not here to defend the MH (that's Pook's job) but the above statement is a bit off. Today's EPA standards prevent much PARTICULATE waste from going up the chimney, and the price you pay is that in SOME cases a lot of HEAT waste goes up the chimney.

The EPA requires clean burning, which is hot burning. The only way to truly know what is absolutely necessary to maintain a clean chimney and adequate draft is by failing to reach that minimal level. If you succeed in maintaining a clean chimney and adequate draft, how do you know you are not OVER-succeeding and wasting a little bit (or maybe a lot) of heat?

BrotherBart · Nov 5, 2010

branchburner said:
If you succeed in maintaining a clean chimney and adequate draft, how do you know you are not OVER-succeeding and wasting a little bit (or maybe a lot) of heat?

That 18 buck flue probe thermometer that shows you that EPA stove exhaust is a lot cooler than a pre-EPA stove's exhaust.

Battenkiller · Nov 5, 2010

BrotherBart said:
That 18 buck flue probe thermometer that shows you that EPA stove exhaust is a lot cooler than a pre-EPA stove's exhaust.

I've been talking to a lot a stove shops in the last month or two, still trying to decide if I'll make the jump before the tax credit ends. Asking lots of questions, and one thing I've been told that has been fairly consistent among different dealers selling different brands of stoves is that with non-cats, the ideal flue pipe surface temps should be around 400º on a single-wall pipe.

Ironic, since with my pre-EPA stove, I have a most difficult time getting the temps to stabilize much above 300º once the bypass has been closed for a while. Even if I let the stove run in updraft for as long as an hour and I have flue temps above 600º and stove at 700º, once I close that damper the flue temp steadily drops until it is about 300º, even as the stove heats up more. What's strange is the fact that on warm, wet days like today, when I'd expect the stove to run even cooler, I get higher flue temps. Stove ran most of this afternoon at 400º on the pipe and 650-700º on the griddle top.

I wonder what most folks consider to be normal in their non-cat EPA stoves.

branchburner · Nov 5, 2010

BrotherBart said:
branchburner said:

If you succeed in maintaining a clean chimney and adequate draft, how do you know you are not OVER-succeeding and wasting a little bit (or maybe a lot) of heat?

Click to expand...

That 18 buck flue probe thermometer that shows you that EPA stove exhaust is a lot cooler than a pre-EPA stove's exhaust.

Depends on the stove, the flue, the wood and the user. Guarantee you my EPA 2-tsp-creosote flue is hotter than my father's non-EPA (Defiant) 2-gal-creosote flue.

I have no problem with general statements, but (like Pook) I sometimes enjoy calling them as such. General statements don't cover specific setups, which may involve overdraft, etc. Science DOES cover specific setups. My general statement of the evening is that I think EPA stoves give more heat with less wood simply because they are burning smoke instead of spitting it out, NOT because they are designed to not waste a drop of heat. If secondary air was adjustable, you could squeeze more heat out of them without crudding up your flue, if you knew what you were doing. (You could also crud up your flue, if you didn't know what you were doing.) That's why I like cats - they can run cooler and still be cleaner.

Magic Heat is maybe not so hot 9 out of 10 times, or even 99 out of 100 times, for all I know. Tell you one thing: I ain't spending $180 to do a damn science project to see if I'm the one (but donations gladly accepted).

Ducky · Nov 5, 2010

from what I have read, as long as you keep flue temps above 250F above the MH, your fine. Which I have no problem doing.

I also mentioned that my stove is from 1977 NOT an EPA approved unit. Which means, my stove is 33 years old.

I do not have $2800 to drop on a new stove.

I bought a larger stove which came with the MH, and then resold the larger stove and bought an MH that would fit my Flue.... leaving me with enuff cash left over to buy a MH to fit my pipe plus a little extra, plus the extra MH box.

so at the end of the day it didnt actually cost me anything to do this.

OK.. now.. in MY situation...

I have access to commercial blowers... and those blowers do NOT put out the heat that the 'in the flue' MH does.

I just walked out of my shop and its current temp is 76F with an outside temp of 38F and, in the time since I posted, I had one of my overhead doors open (10x10) for about 10 minutes...

There is no blower option for my stove. I looked.

In MY situation, this seems to be working VERY well. I am monitoring my pipe temps closely, 2ft above the MH box, and I am consistantly above 250F...

Since burning wood, I have never had my shop over 70F without the aid of a kerosene heater. EVER.

So, in my opinion, this works. But then again, my stove is 33 years old and doesnt have a blower.

pastera · Nov 5, 2010

There is little difference between removing the heat from the flue with the 'Magic Heat' and removing it from the stove with a blower as long as nowhere in the system the flue gas can condense.

The difference is when you go to clean the system - it will be more difficult to do so with the MH in place. This will cause casual burners to neglect the system and create the resulting perception of the MH.

When faced with financial necessity, using the MH to increase the overall efficiency of an old stove is simply being frugal (not cheap).

Now the question is can you use that toasty warm shop to retrofit a secondary burn system to that dragon?

To burn 20 lbs of dry wood requires about 250 lbs of air at 100% excess air (more modern stove).
Reducing flue gas temperature from 600°F to 300° would recover about 54 BTU/Lb or 14K BTU over the entire burn with about 13K BTU still going up the chimney

At ~6400 BTU/Lb for oak, the 20 Lb burn will give you 128K BTU, or you would recover only 11% of the heat value with a MH in a more modern stove.

A poorly sealed stove would heat a lot more excess air therefore the recovery would be much greater; hence the utility of a MH unit.

Aaron

Oldmainer · Nov 5, 2010

Hi Folks...I have a 6" MH on my AllNighter...located in my uninsulated basement... that I have used for three years now...bought it from Northern Tool. Am pleased with it and don't think it has caused me any aditional problems as far as pipe and chimney cleanup is concerned....which I do on a regular basis throughout the heating season. By the way...out of 119 comments on the NT site about MH 118 are positive...most folks said it increased their heat output and saved them some wood...

Oldmainer

branchburner · Nov 5, 2010

Oldmainer said:
...out of 119 comments on the NT site about MH 118 are positive...

I noticed that, too. But do any mention whether it has caused aditional problems as far as pipe and chimney cleanup is concerned?

I'd wager the biggest creosote problems come from burning green wood and letting the smoke dump into a cold, oversized chimney flue. MH might make that marginally worse. I imagine one might get good results without excess creosote from MH if burning very hot fires with dry wood and a strong-drafting flue.

Oldmainer · Nov 5, 2010

Hi branchburner...none of the folks...commenting on the NT site about the MH extractor...made mention of chimney fires...so I guess they are/were smart enough to keep things reasonably clean...pipe and chimney that is. The only groan I have with mine is I have to drop the back...eight screws I think...whenever we have a power outage. Tryin' to hold a flash light and remove the screws in the middle of the night makes one mumble alittle...

Oldmainer

Ducky · Nov 5, 2010

Ya know I looked at that myself and thought about using thumb screws instead of the factory screws. However, I I get my power from the main line that comes directly off the Niagara Falls power station which feeds NYC and we rarely lose power - knock on wood...

Highbeam · Nov 5, 2010

My non-cat stove has a vertical flue with the minimum allowed length. Pretty typical setup in a pretty moderate climate. Flue temps, real internal ones 18" above the appliance, are in the 800 degree range when a clean fire is burning. Conventional wisdom tells us that we want 250 or so degrees at the outlet of the flue. I don't know anybody that measures outlet flue temps including myself but I have to think that there is extra waste heat leaving my flue well above 250. I don't mind wasting the energy since wood grows on trees but in certain cases I would support using a MH. I would want another flue temp probe above the MH.

I don't like pook. He can go away for all I care but the concept of reclaiming waste heat with a device like this shouldn't be completely ignored just because of his bad manners.

begreen · Nov 5, 2010

Oldmainer said:
Hi Folks...I have a 6" MH on my AllNighter...located in my uninsulated basement... that I have used for three years now...bought it from Northern Tool. Am pleased with it and don't think it has caused me any aditional problems as far as pipe and chimney cleanup is concerned....which I do on a regular basis throughout the heating season. By the way...out of 119 comments on the NT site about MH 118 are positive...most folks said it increased their heat output and saved them some wood... Oldmainer

Word - marketing. There are often better and safer ways to save wood. Sometimes a simple key damper will make a significant drop in flue temps, for about $150 less. Don't believe me, check out all the glowing reviews for their EdenPure style heater. Hardly a realistic comment about it.

For comparable NT reviews, look at those posted for the Vogelzang Box stove. Classic marketing:

"The Vogerlzang wood stove is the real McCoy! It features superb enginering and genuine craftsmanship with quality construction. Unlike too many look-a-likes and retro-wood stoves, this one will probably never burn out. It is enginered for serious use whether just keeping a large space toasty or cooking on the top - or using the hot water from the optional side mounted heater. This is the wood stove you can pass on to your grandchildren."

branchburner · Nov 5, 2010

Highbeam said:
I would want another flue temp probe above the MH.

I like that idea. Put the probe in to see temps w/ and w/o MH. The proof is in the putting.

begreen · Nov 5, 2010

I'd also want a comparison test on the same flue system using just a key damper.

webbie · Nov 5, 2010

Ok, couple of things.....
A vigilant uses an 8" pipe - not a 6". That might have an effect on a number of things.
Are you able to get the stove working well in the downdraft mode? If so, you must have quite a strong chimney.

Any blower on a stove - or in this case a pipe - will help spread heat a little further and faster. Although VC never made a blower for the Vigilant, I can imagine a setup where I might use the rear heat shield with a blower mounted to it near the bottom - this could blow air over a couple of square feet of the bare cast iron back. Even better would be to have the shield bent at the top to deflect heat over the top of the stove and forward.

In a shop, it might be that a ceiling fan also helps spread the air around.

Of course, this is an ancient stove at this point...but a nice one never the less. Part of the legend of VC, though, was the lack of noise and need for electrical outlets etc.....that is, picture the family sitting around the stove in the dead of winter and hearing the ice outside crackle. Of course, in a "man room" or shop, this does not come into play.

I had a good customer once who used a Vigi in his basement to do a pretty decent job on pre-heating his house. However, he bought a Yukon Central furnace to replace it - which did the job 100%.

branchburner · Nov 5, 2010

BeGreen said:
"The Vogerlzang wood stove is the real McCoy! ... This is the wood stove you can pass on to your grandchildren."

They mean that literally - there will be lots of little pieces left after it falls apart, so each grandkid can have an heirloom.

firefighterjake · Nov 5, 2010

All I know is I bought a stove sized to my needs (well actually I took folks' advice and bought a stove one size larger) . . . and even with an outside chimney I don't need anything other than my stove to keep my house warm . . . no need to buy any add-on devices . . . granted this is with a modern stove and in a home, not a shop.

webbie · Nov 5, 2010

FYI, just for historys sake, the date cast into the rear fireback of a VC stove is not the age of the stove - it is the date when the first model of that stove was designed or produced. All Defiants might have 1976, for example.....

Battenkiller · Nov 5, 2010

Highbeam said:
My non-cat stove has a vertical flue with the minimum allowed length. Pretty typical setup in a pretty moderate climate. Flue temps, real internal ones 18" above the appliance, are in the 800 degree range when a clean fire is burning.

Highbeam, with your minimal flue height coupled with any els, caps, internal stove resistance, etc, you just may need every bit of that 800º to get a proper draft. With a 16' straight chimney, you need about a 400º average flue gas temp to draw .10 inches of draft in your flue. Stoves vary, but most stoves need a draft of between .08 to .10 inches of water to run efficiently. Your average flue gas temp will be much lower than the 800º you are measuring at the collar.

As BG and others have said, the draft is the engine of your stove. I think we end up seeing a lot more insufficient draft here on this forum than we see excessive draft. I have come to believe that part of the problem is coming from people trying to keep those flue temps at a minimum. Between obsessing about overfire and whining about lost BTUs, I think a lot of folks are really missing the boat. You need to spend money to make money, and you need to waste heat to gain heat. That's just the way it works best, and we need to live with it.

A simple pipe damper can usually control those cases of excessive draft just fine. It will have the added benefit of holding more heat in the stove and allowing internal temps to rise, resulting in better combustion efficiency. That increased burn efficiency will likely more than offset any heat loss from a hotter flue.

I'm not against any idea, but if this Magic Heat is such a good idea, I'd think that at least some wood heating experts around the world would be pushing it pretty hard. Here's what one of the best authorities on the subject of wood heating has to say about the subject:

RE: [woodheat] Magic Heat Reclaimer

Ruth wrote:
> I have a Vogelzang Heartwood Wood-Burning Heater.
> At time of purchase,
> I installed a blower. In looking around a see a
> Magic Heat Reclaimer
> for wood stoves. Sounds pretty good to me. Was
> wondering if I could
> have the heat reclaimer and also the blower. Or
> am I just throwing my
> money to the wind. Does anyone have the reclaimer
> and are they worth
> the effort?

You bought a cheap and inefficient stove. That was your
first mistake. Don't compound it by adding a heat reclaimer
to the flue pipe. Those things plug up very quickly when
connected to a dirty burner like yours. They are so bad that
they have been banned outright in the Canadian wood
appliance installation code.

If you want to improve the efficiency and convenience of
wood heating and have some money to spend, sell your stove
and buy a decent one.

John

John... as in John Gulland. Since he's the guy who penned the infamous article about the "Florida Bungalow Syndrome", I'm sure he is very familiar with potential overdraft problems in EPA stoves. And yet, he certainly doesn't recommend the use of this device as a cure for the problem.

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