New member. New stove. New Hearth question.

Hello all! I've been reading around the site a bit and I've come to the point that I need to ask a question. First a bit of background.

I've come to discover that what I thought was going to be a simple wood burning insert installation is now going to be a massive tear down and replace job. What I have in my house is a zero clearance majestic stove from the late 70s that as been incorrectly converted to gas and is missing its double wall chimney pipe and interior fire plates. Its been cobbled on over the past several owners to the point that its no longer safe to use. I've read up a fair bit, and I don't think my fireplace inspector/salesman is trying to sell me a bill of goods. Everything he showed me adds up. Also on the topic, is anyone familiar with Stars Chimney Service in Fort Wayne Indiana? I'd love to hear some feedback. Anyhow, moving on to the question.

Stars is recommending a complete tear down of the existing masonry zero clearance unit and replacement with a Napoleon 1900. Overall, that doesn't offend me since the 1900 will have about twice the BTU output as the inserts I was looking at and can realistically heat my leaky 1000ft^3 house (1000 up, 1000 down in finished basement, which is where the stove will be). As far as my research as taken me, the Napoleon is a good robust unit with tons of favorable feedback all over the internet world. But, here in lies my problem. As I said, I have a completely finished and detailed zero clearance "fireplace" that looks very nice, but is a fire hazard. By breaking it all out and taking it out the backdoor with a wheel barrel, I'll be left with a very ugly unfinished bare concrete floor and bare concrete basement wall behind the unit. The tab for the stove and installation is just shy of $5k, so I really can't afford to do anything in terms of hiring a stone mason to come in and do some really great hearth and back wall right at the moment.

I have not yet asked the installer these questions because I would like to know something about the answers beforehand.

The questions:

*Is there anything in the pre-manufactured world that a skilled home owner can simply install? Can I order a heart as some reasonable cost and just put it on the floor under the stove to cover the concrete?

*What is generally considered safe when it comes to hearths? What is not? I assume bare concrete will be safe, but certainly ugly.

*If I can't afford to do *anything* about a good looking hearth right now, is it acceptable or wise to place the stove on a couple of risers (bricks, maybe 2" tall) so that later on the chimney won't have to be re-fit when an ornamental hearth is installed, due to the height change?

*Should I pull a building permit (regardless of whether or not it is illegal to do this type of work without one) for my own protection?

I'm interested in opinions on the cost and equipment as well. I've been quoted 1999.99 ("on sale") for the stove with unspecified options. I assume doors are included, but I doubt a blower is. $1100 for the pipe from the basement to the roof and $300 for parts such as a flue, chimney temp gauge, and rain cap. Labor to install it is right around $1000. I'm sure that there are many people here that have installed their own equipment, but that's out of the question for me in this case. Professional installation and sale from a certified chimney sweep is mandatory for me for insurance and legal reasons. I'm ok with paying a slight premium to buy local and have continued support after the sale, but I don't want to be a sucker either. Stars has already said that they would be happy to install equipment purchased elsewhere if I wish, which to me is a big plus. Many contractors won't touch product that isn't their own. In my opinion, a true craftsman can take any lumber and build a house if they have the right skills.

BeGreen said:

$2400 for the installation had better include the removal of the old stove and cleanup. If so, then the price is not out of line, especially for peak season.

$1999 for the basic, black Napoleon 1900 is a bit high, but the dealer's price might be ok if this includes the blower or special trim. You will need to confirm these details.

For the concrete floor I would think you could lay down some stone or tile on that surface for under $100. You could get a hearth pad, but it would be overkill and more like $400.

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Nope... It would be an extra $1100 for them to demolish the old stove and haul it away. I thought he was pretty proud of his labor and parts as well, but what do I know? Plus, its getting cold here and the tax credit is ending. It's my fault waiting this long so and I'm sure he's busy enough to not "need" my business. If I'm getting screwed by $1000, I would sure like to know about it though!

I thought the stove price was a bit high too, but I'm prepared to haggle a bit for options that I want at a discounted rate vs. online retailers. For instance, when I wanted an insert they recommended a lesser Buck model than what I wanted at a price that was a couple hundred more than I expected. When I stepped up to the model and options I wanted, they came in a few hundred less than the online guys.

Thanks for the input and please keep it coming!

I'm a fairly skilled home owner and have tackled plenty of major and minor projects. I'm just trying to think the plan through a bit so I don't have lots of problems down the road. Right now my time is very limited and I have other projects going that are more important than aesthetic stuff. That's why I'm wondering what steps I should, or can, take to make a hearth build easier later on. As long as its safe to use this year its ok if its ugly. Is it a big deal to shorten the stove pipe up later to compensate for the added height of the hearth? Is it as simple as cutting it down with a sawsall or tin snips?

I intend to demolish the old unit myself. Having a walkout basement and access to a loader tractor and trailer makes it a no-brainer for the $1100. I was thinking of buying an SDS rotary hammer for the job, but the fireplace guy said a sledge hammer is as good as anything. Any thoughts?

I have a fair supply of wood for this season, but not excellent. I'll probably end up buying a few truck loads locally. My primary goal for this year is to heat the basement on weekends so it's not absolutely freezing down here. Whoever finished the basement didn't bother to insulate it and the forced air gas heat was installed as an afterthought, poorly. So, I typically don't see anything more than about 58F in the basement during the coldest months. I have an excellent source for wood that is on the ground right now that should be great for burning next year. This year is all about the tax credit and not freezing to death a few days a week. The long term goal is to heat entirely with wood.

I have no issue at all ordered the equipment online if the price is really that much better and the installer is willing to install equipment purchased elsewhere. For that matter, if I turn up with a better price maybe he'll come down? I'm not going to waiver on the professional installation though. Even though I know that I do better work that most people I pay to do things. Its strictly for the insurance company. If it burns down, I can say that a certified guy installed it. Plus, installation is covered under the tax credit as well, for biomass systems only, so the total ticket is really 30% off. I do appreciate the offer to help though.

I would really like to stick with the better known, and possibly higher quality brand names. If anything so there's hope that the company will be around should I ever need to use the lifetime warranty or order replacement parts.

I have no intention of ever gutting the basement to insulate unless some other issue forces my hand.

These are my thoughts on transferring the heat between levels (of course, I'm open to suggestions as well):

Through the basement ceiling, which is insulated in R8 for sound deadening. So, that may only work so-so. A direct vent between levels is out of the question because it would defeat the sound deadening.

Up the stairway with the basement door open (again, so-so)

And the probable winner, plumbing an air return for the forced air system that blocks the upstairs returns and can be bypassed in the summer directly over the stove, then running the furnace manually in Fan Only mode. It shouldn't be a big project because the furnace is in the basement, almost directly across from the stove area and I have an acoustical tile dropped ceiling that is easy to work with. Plus the air return was installed by a monkey with a banana and needs fixed anyhow. I'm even considered wiring the thermostat and furnace to a relay that would disconnect the thermostat heat wire and complete the Fan Only circuit. That would make it automatically switch between gas and "ambient" heating modes and also bypass the preset gas heating temperature programmed into the thermostat. So, if I only want to set the gas thermostat to 62, but the stove can run the house up to 80, the thermostat will be ignored and the stove will be the master. Once the fire cools down and the blower motor shuts off, the gas HVAC system will return to normal operation. When the temp drops 62, it will fire propane and maintain that temp. Who knows how well all of that would really work, but it sounds like a fun science fair project.

HeatsTwice said:

Have you seen this post?

It might help with some of the installation questions. I had to build and tile my own fire wall to within the safty limitations described in the Napoleon 1900 installation instructions. No big deal.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/9392/P0/

Btw, I bought mine (shown in shots at above link) for $1800.00 - no blower. I love it. Its cranking away now. at 550 degrees.

Look around on this site for other posts regarding the 1900 (mine also). There is a lot of information which should help you.

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Did you pay $1800 2 years ago for yours or more recently?

VERY nice looking install. Something to that effect is my long term goal. Since I'm in a basement with a concrete wall behind the stove, do I need to worry about the initial 2x4 wall that you built, or can I go straight to the 2" vented wall since its all non-combustible material? If so, this is going to work out great since I will need to bump the area behind the stove out 2" to match the height of the drywall around it.

Also, the chimney is going to go up through an acoustical tile (dropped/suspended) ceiling. Any thoughts on the right way to trim it out? Should I drywall in a small section for the pipe to pass through?

HeatsTwice said:

Maxwelhse said:

HeatsTwice said:

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Did you pay $1800 2 years ago for yours or more recently?

Since I'm in a basement with a concrete wall behind the stove, do I need to worry about the initial 2x4 wall that you built, or can I go straight to the 2" vented wall since its all non-combustible material? If so, this is going to work out great since I will need to bump the area behind the stove out 2" to match the height of the drywall around it.

Also, the chimney is going to go up through an acoustical tile (dropped/suspended) ceiling. Any thoughts on the right way to trim it out? Should I drywall in a small section for the pipe to pass through?

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I paid $1800 back in 2007.

I can not say I fully understand your installation, but I did read all fire code before designing my solution. Based on what you have written, your fire wall IS your concrete wall. So there would be no need for a 2" vented wall since the purpose of this is to cool the area close to combustibles - which you seem to have non of.

A picture would help a lot.

Regarding passage of the chimney through the ceiling, so long as you use Class A fiber glass insolation and the outside of the pipe is at least 2 inches away from any combustables, you can trim it any way you want. Dry wall would be fine. But again that 2 inches is a minimume. If you can, at least for peace of mind, I would increase that distance. The easiest thing is to read the fire code and adhear to the suggested pass through configurations you will find in their illustrations.

I hope this has helped.

Btw, harbor freight sells tile saws for $30 which I used to put up that tile (with the help of my wife).

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Considering the tax credit is ending so dealers can pretty much charge retail, $2k now probably isn't that horrible of a price. I tried to get in touch with my local dealer today to inquire about the cost of options, but wasn't able to get through.

It sounds like you understand my install fairly well. My installation is very similar to the one in the link below, but the depth on mine to the wall is about 2', and goes all the way up to a couple of inches past the drop ceiling, then into fire hazard city.

http://docs.hdpi.com/product_enlarged/Majestic_Biltmore50-Fireplace.jpg

I was thinking the same thing about the firewall just being the normal basement wall, just thought I'd ask. I was also thinking about the heat of the stove vs. the cold of the ground and air (the foundation is above ground at that point) causing condensation, or even worse, cracking. Maybe a vented wall would be cheap insurance?

In regard to clearance, the closest thing to the chimney will end up being the floor joists, which I can't really move. They're 16" on center, which should give a 8" double wall pipe 3.25" clearance. If code is the same here, I should be fine. The opening at the ceiling is welcome to be as large as a non-combustible cover will allow.

Again, I fully intend to discuss these details with the installer, pull a permit, and have an inspection performed before the first log ever hits the stove (and before I pay for 100% of it if I have my way).

I do love Harbor Freight for occasional use tools. Just snagged the previously mentioned 1" SDS rotary hammer yesterday for all of $59 with some junk bits. It has lots of shockingly good reviews on their website. In regard to the tile, I'm not afraid of tackling the job, I just don't have time to pretty it up right now. Even if it sucks to move it later to do the tile work, that may be the path I take.

Thanks again for even more info...

So, the installer called me back today, and I'm a bit apprehensive to go through with it. But first, the good news, the $1999.99 price includes a blower, door, and automatic thermostatic switch. So... From what I've seen, he's not that out of line with the online guys. Another $260 buys the door I want and the matching top plate (not sure of what the technical name is).

Now the bad... I mentioned a permit and he got a bit of an attitude. He said I didn't need one and that it was a waste of money. Now, that on its own set off an alarm, but his logic doesn't seem that bad if you understand the county I live in (they're jerks). The story I got from him, is that the county wants all fireplace guys to be certified HVAC installers and that it's a catch 22 because the HVAC guy don't want anything to do with fireplaces. He then continued to say that I could pull a permit if I wanted to and that I would have to tell them I did the work myself, and he would bill me for labor on a separate invoice. All of that sounds kind of fishy, but again, the logic makes sense if its accurate. It does sound like a stupid plan my county would concoct.

To his credit, he recommended what I was already thinking, call my insurance company and ask them what documentation they want to see should there ever be an incident. Indeed, that is my big snag. If the insurance company is happy, then all is well.

Then, the more I thought about it, if I have to pull a permit, understand the code (which, as he also told me on the phone, is impossible to find for this county) so I can speak intelligently to the inspector, and demolish the old stove, what I am paying $1000 for? He's going to run the new chimney in the old chase that currently has a 13" pipe installed (apparently they constructed the floor joists originally with a very wide pass through at that location), install a flue, flue thermometer, fire barrier between levels, and a rain cap. I'm thinking more and more about buying the stove from him, since he does indeed have a fair price and is an authorized dealer, and doing the install myself.

Since my plan changed from a Buck insert to a Napoleon stove, now I have another authorized local dealer to go to. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and see what they have to say.

HeatsTwice said:

Maxwelhse said:

Thanks again for even more info...

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My stove, with the door I wanted, cooking top (called a cooking trivit) in the color I wanted, again, was $1800 - no blower. The blower was about $195 as I recall but way worth it. I hope the thermistate you refer to is not the one in the blower itself because it comes with a thermistat.

It sounds like your guy is doing it correctly. Does that 1999.99 include the new chimney in the old chase, flue, flue thermometer, fire barrier between levels, and a rain cap?

If so this is a very good deal.

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It includes NONE of those things you mentioned. The things you mentioned will be another $1300. I called the other dealer today and they quoted list price for everything and do no of wood stoves installation.

I've pretty much talked myself out of doing this. The insurance company is making it a hassle and wants to raise my rate, the only installer in the area sounds kinda shady, and the prices really don't sound that great. I think I'm going to end up putting this off for now, and tackling the install later on if I choose.

HeatsTwice said:

Ok just for the record, I did a little research of my own and found that for the stove alone with the door and blower for 1999.99 is a fairly good price. About $200 less than what I could find.

Btw, I did my own install up through a chase, and followed all code (of the UBC, universal building code book). It was no big deal. I had to find a sheet metal worker who could cut a whole in the chase top cap but that was not a problem. The rest was fairly easy.

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I'm with you. The more research I do, the less sense it makes to pay this guy for installation, but perhaps I'll buy the stove there. If I'm not going to pay for installation, then its about a wash with not getting the tax credit. So... I have more time to make my mind up about what I want to do and research it as much as I would like.

I like to have as much data as possible before making a decision, and I just don't feel comfortable with it yet. I could stomach the $2200 in buying the stove, but not the $5k total with this little information available.

rayza said:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/53585/#597032

Check out this link. The Adminstrator was collating hearth pictures. Mine stove was incorporated into his collage. It is the second down on the left. It's an elipse not an arc. The stone cost me 140 the stone saw cost me 60 for the rental plus the mortar and I brought a dremmel with 3 wood bits to go through the wood floor. Concrete underneath.
All clearances, manufacturer's and county's are met (I designed it all on Autocad), and I did pull a permit. It's hand for when you tell your insurance company that you are going to heat with a fire.

Ray

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Very nice looking install as well. I really would love to do it, but I just getting cold feet on the entire project the way its going right now. The insurance company is supposed to get back to me on Monday with more specific details and tomorrow I'm going down to the county office to pull a permit for some electrical work. I'm going to see what, if any, information they can provide me.

For anyone else that may ever be interested in Fort Wayne Indiana Fireplace / Wood Burning Stove building codes, in Allen County, this is what the inspector told me:

2 Permits are required. 1 HVAC permit to run the chimney and 1 building permit to install the stove. So, just like the installer told me, you need an HVAC license, or to be the homeowner, to legally do the work. So, since he doesn't want to obtain an HVAC license, or contract an HVAC guy to run the chimney, he can't legally do the work in my county. I didn't ask about inspections, but I assume an HVAC inspector comes out to look at the chimney, then you install the stove and call the building inspector.

In regard to what the code says, he said to make sure I followed the manufacturers instructions very closely. To which I replied, "In other words the code is the instruction manual?", he nodded and said "Yeah, pretty much". I then told him I'd just pick up a copy of the ICC and do the work myself, and he wished me well and to call if I had any questions. (He also noted that the building department donated a copy of the 2009 ICC to the reference section at the library, which I thought was pretty cool).

So... It's not rocket science, even in my very strict county that just made me pull a building permit to install drywall before my final electrical inspection will be approved. I'm still waiting to hear back from the insurance company before I make any additional moves.

HeatsTwice said:

Maxwelhse said:

So... It's not rocket science, even in my very strict county that just made me pull a building permit to install drywall before my final electrical inspection will be approved. I'm still waiting to hear back from the insurance company before I make any additional moves.

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I'm glad you consulted the city on this matter. Its given you confidence to do it yourself. If you follow the UBC (or any web page describing fire code) and the instruction manuel it can be very easy.

I would like to comment that most people feel the permit process is out to gouge people for money so that Bolsheviks or junior hitlers can come over and tell them what they have done wrong after the install is complete so they can deny the permit after insisting the home owner tear all of the work out.

This is far from the truth. I have found that the most helpful, and objective consultants I have ever known have been from the permit office. In fact, I have grown to rely on them for the truth and always compare what they say against what the contractor says. Lots of times they are worth the money.

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I'm still of the belief that they are mostly out for my money ($75, big deal), but I do agree that it isn't nearly as painful as most people make it sound like it is. We'll see what my story is after I go through my rough electrical inspection in the garage... 200A dedicated service, 50A 220 in every corner, and 20A outlets within arms reach of anyone of at least 5'8" height no matter where you stand, except dead center in the 16' wide garage door opening (you have to walk 5' in that case). Plenty of opportunities to find problems, real or perceived!

In the case of electrical work, the best source I've had is my local electrical distributor (the real electrician's store, not Home Depot). Plus the prices are way better if you're not buying the typical everyday 12/2 NM wire at 15A light switches. It seems that electrical is also a lot easier to find information for online since people regularly cite the NEC book. UBC/ICC citing seems to be more rare.

Anyhow, still holding off until Monday to hear from the insurance. But either way, I would do it myself.