A question for our UK/Euro wood burners

Hi John, Thats a great question.
Yes there is a big difference in the stove and firewood market in Europe.
The best European stoves, generally, are from Scandinavia, Norway, Sweden and Denmark.
Jotul and Morso are probably the biggest and have been building stoves longer than anyone.

I notice that the North American market generally has bigger, older styled stoves with larger burn boxes and if I may venture a criticism, they are not quite so modern and clean burning, tho I dont know about Catalyst stoves, which are not available on the European market.
Jotul cater very well for the North American market, but dont seem to sell any Contemporary stoves, so have a look at a Jotul European site to see what is available.
Morso have just started selling contemporary stoves to North America and they are worth having a look at.

The European standard log length is mostly 12", however some countries are as small as 10" or even 8", and this tends to be the regions where open fires are still used, Scotland being one of these places, and I have to admit that our mentality for heating our homes has been backward compared to other places, especially Scandinavia, I dont know the situation in the States?
I know I wont please everyone by what I m saying;
There are 3 main advantages that the contemporary stove has over what most manufacturers call the Classic (or traditional) stove;
The fire box is smaller and better insulated (usually with Vermiculte plates), so wood will burn at higher temperatures and more cleanly and also the combustion air is pre-heated by following a path thru the stove where it heats up, again improving clean burning and efficiency. Some of the latest Jotuls and Morsos have 80-85 % efficiency.
The other advantage is that small loads, ie a single log, will burn efficiently and cleanly, whereas the tradtional stoves would tend to creosote burning single logs unless they are burnt quicker!
So efficiency, economy and clean burn are the advantages.
The traditional stove does have the advantage of larger loads, but I will point out that both my brother and I have a contemporary stove each (Jotul and Morso) and they both have enough embers to relight the following day.

Incidentally, I have the polar gene, that means I generally dont feel the cold, and thinking about the reason for this is growing up in an old stone house, with no insulation whatsoever and only one open fireplace in the whole house.
I remember when I was about 12 years old, I got a bit of frost bite on my toe, after one foot had slipped out from under the covers whilst I was sleeping.
It was common to wake up in our house with ice on the inside of the windows from the breath having condensed and frozen on the windows.

BeGreen said:

Very interesting post Angus. I think that American houses in general are much larger than in Europe. Bigger houses need more heat. Also, there is a tradition of abundance here which has led to a habit of oversize, overheating and waste. This fortunately is changing and we are finally tightening up our houses. Though for overnight fires in a smaller stove, I haven't seen this too much. Our friends Morso 2110 (nice stove) rarely will burn for longer than 6 hrs.

My wife grew up in New England in a house without central heat. She will never forget the winter when she woke up and found their goldfish frozen in its bowl. She is happy not to have to worry about this anymore. I have to chuckle about your genetics. If you have the polar gene, I have the equator gene. I like the sun and warmth.

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Oh man, poor fish, sorry, dont want to be coarse, but I did have a laugh about that.
Yes, the American houses are much larger, tho if you go to Germany, France and Scandinavia, they do tend to have large homes, and , their houses are very well insulated, unlike us backward Scots who live in tiny stone aged hovels with no insulation.
I like your comments and I think the States, with its freedom and mentality and work culture has been the land of plenty, especially since WW2, the American industrial output saved the world from darker regimes. Anyhow back to stoves, and I admit our Morso 8140, does struggle to relight the next day, my brothers Jotul 350, a beautiful stove re-lights without any problems tho this does have a larger burn box.

One thing that seems to be emerging from this conversation is the use of Vermicullite, and I can see John recognises the potential it has for insulating and ability to withstand the hottest of fire + its relatively cheap to replace.
I wasnt sure if American manufacturers used this or not, but any stove I d buy from now should have a Vermiculite lining. I have seen stoves with brick linings that are easy to replace, but some of these bust after only a couple of years then cost as much as Cast to replace.

Angus, is there a reason catalytic stoves are not available to the European market? We own two (very traditionally styled!) and they are wonderfully efficient, fully capable of very long burns, so a next day restart from coals is easy-peasy.

Bobbin said:

Angus, is there a reason catalytic stoves are not available to the European market? We own two (very traditionally styled!) and they are wonderfully efficient, fully capable of very long burns, so a next day restart from coals is easy-peasy.

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I remember in the early 1990s that they were starting to come in, I think with Vermonts, and some other companys, but they never caught on and I dont know why, to be truthful I am very ignorant about catalysts and I think its the same all over Europe, probably the stove manufacturers who dominate the European market just didnt take to it?

BeGreen said:

Hey, the fish lived until the cat got it later on.

The Englander 50-SVL17 uses vermiculite boards.
http://www.englanderstoves.com/50-svl17.html

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This is a very American looking stove! They seem to mention Non Catalytic as though this is an advantage? Maybe I misunderstand it.

Do American manufacturers use mostly steel or Cast?
The only one I know using cast is Vermnont and we cant get them here anymore, I think that there was a problem getting spares and the dealers stopped buying them in.

Aside from the butt ugly stove/thing my father put in the living room when I was in my early 20s, I knew little to nothing about stoves, (catalytic stoves?!) until we bought the Fireview. The price was nearly double what we'd budgetted for a new stove but it was the only stove the husband thought was attractive and I liked it a lot, too. We saved longer to buy one. But after burning it for a season... wow! we were definitely "sold" and have worked hard to dispell the myths about how "difficult" catalytic stoves can be. Our experience was so good when it was time for another stove I went straight to The Woodstock Soapstone Stove Co.. (Backwoods Savage and I are founding members of their "fan club").

It always comes down to fuel. Quality, properly cured fuel in a quality stove will deliver a good result. Burning wood is about so much more than just shoving splits in the woodbox. Once a person appreciates that the wood burning experience improves greatly!

This thread has reminded me of Mark Twain's rant on the inferiority of the "American stove" to the "German stove" (masonry heater):

http://mainewoodheat.com/2009/01/mark-twain-on-masonry-heaters/

"The American wood stove, of whatsoever breed, it is a terror. There can be no tranquility of mind where it is. It requires more attention than a baby. It has to be fed every little while, it has to be watched all the time; and for all reward you are roasted half your time and frozen the other half. It warms no part of the room but its own part; it breeds headaches and suffocation, and makes one’s skin feel dry and feverish; and when your wood bill comes in you think you have been supporting a volcano."

Mark Twain, poor fellow, never got to stand in a room with a Woodstock!

If America had been first settled by Fins, Swedes, Russians, Austrians or Germans - instead of by visitors from a milder climate - you have to wonder if our antique center-chimney Capes would all have masonry heaters in them instead of inefficient, wood-hungry fireplaces.

AngusMac said:

I remember in the early 1990s that they were starting to come in, I think with Vermonts, and some other companys, but they never caught on and I dont know why, to be truthful I am very ignorant about catalysts and I think its the same all over Europe, probably the stove manufacturers who dominate the European market just didnt take to it?

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I believe Jotul produced a few cat stoves. Apparently, cats didn't really catch on in the U.S. either, probably because they are less tolerant of bad fuel. And yes, most mfrs seem to be promoting "non-catalytic" as superior. I believe the "dirty little secret" of the industry is that the average user is not going to bother with seasoning their wood, so the mfrs sell EPA-mandated "clean-burning" stoves that will also burn dirty without getting too gunked up to function, and everyone is happy. To get back to the OP, maybe the 50% shorter splits dry out more quickly. . .

precaud said:

Over the last couple weeks, I've browsed through quite a few videos on Youtube of European stoves burning. And I notice that, even for stoves that can take longer wood, everyone appears to use wood that is cut pretty short - looks like 12 inches (30cm) or thereabouts. And so I wonder - is short wood the norm over there? If you order wood from a vendor, is that the length you get? Is there some philosophical difference behind it? I'd like to hear what our friends across the pond have to say about it.

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Yet another data-point. I've fired a Morso Squirrel, now in its 10th season, with 8" long x 4" max wide wood. Firebox is ~12" E-W, 10" N-S, and N-S is parallel the primary airflow down the window. Baffle above slopes, so 8" is a practical size, and 12" would be pushing things, since Morso suggests loading N-S.

Takes more work to prepare the wood, but I've worked out a procedure, so it's no big deal. Dries quickly, besides. The stacks are like a mosaic.

Plan was that the stove would provide SOME of the heat required, but it proved capable of providing most/all, depending. The small sticks make for very fine granularity of control of heat output, and difficulty in burning much more than 1.5 cord/heating season. (I'm not O-C about 10 hr. burns.)

Burn less, sell more. If you buy wood, it's pretty easy to cut & split down to size, but difficult to glue pieces together.